Spins base value in the FS

[FSGMT]

A thing that has always baffled me about some layouts is how the spins are planned: some skaters (especially those with easier/weaker jumps such as Carolina or Akiko) maximize their points in the FS by doing CCoSp, FCCoSp and FCSp which amounts to a total of 10.2, while others such as Evgenia or Alina do not seem to care and do for example the same spins they plan in the SP. Of course there may be many reasons for this: you have to spend more time on spins in order to vary them and plan different positions, for example, or your quality and GOE can increase by doing easier spins. However, the BV difference between a level 4 FCCoSp and a LSp (for instance) is 0.80, which is more than what you get (or used to, with the new rules) by moving a triple jump to the second half: since most elite skaters would surely have no trouble at all doing a FCCoSp instead of a LSp with more or less the same GOE, why are (or were) they so willing to move jumps to the second half (which is tiring and extremely dificult mentally) but not to change their LSp into a FCCoSp? It's like deliberately giving up points, which just doesn't seem shrewd from someone who is universally recognized as the shrewdest of the shrewd (aka Eteri) :noshake:

 

[chopinskate]

I'm kind of curious: If spins'd had a backloading bonus before this season, what would Zag have done?

 

[cohen-esque]

Here’s what I think.

In the SP, the highest possible point-scoring layout for a woman is a CCoSp, an FCSp, and a LSp. They cannot do anything else, except swap the FCSp and LSp for lower-value spins. So if they’re capable of the above, they’ll do it. Now, consider that there are currently 13 ways to get a level on a spin. Each can only be used once (though there are many possible “difficult variations”), and two of those are restricted to the LSp. Others are restricted in the circumstances that they’re valid, as well. For three spins, to earn Level 4 on each, requires 12 level features, in total. Considering that two features are automatically only valid to the Layback, when one is included it somewhat lowers the planning required by the skater/coach/choreographer in assigning features.

So, for the sake of training, consistency, and efficiency, it’s probable that their team has decided that it’s worth it to keep those same spins in the FS. It allows them to earn straight Level 4s without worrying about whether they flubbed a feature requirement, without needing to learn and commit a separate spin with its features to muscle memory, and to become skilled at doing those same spins over and over, hopefully resulting in higher GOE. It’s just a bit easier, and frees up some time to focus on other things.

And indeed, Alina does the exact same spins with the exact same Level features in her SP as she does in her FS, with only some minor non-Level feature arm variations in the SP layback for choreographic effect.

 

[draqq]

A few reasons why layback spins are preferred:

- Layback spins are required elements in the SP
- Layback spins have unique features for levels, so the levels on the other two spins are easier to achieve
- LSp4 for top skaters are easy +2/+3 GOEs across the board, leaves a strong impression in PCS to have an incredible layback-to-bielmann spin
- GOE is more important than base value (especially now with the -5/+5 GOE system)
- It's easier to train programs by repeating layback spin in LP, one fewer element to learn and commit to muscle memory (as cohen-esque mentioned)

 

[Spirals for Miles]

A thing that has always baffled me about some layouts is how the spins are planned: some skaters (especially those with easier/weaker jumps such as Carolina or Akiko) maximize their points in the FS by doing CCoSp, FCCoSp and FCSp which amounts to a total of 10.2, while others such as Evgenia or Alina do not seem to care and do for example the same spins they plan in the SP. Of course there may be many reasons for this: you have to spend more time on spins in order to vary them and plan different positions, for example, or your quality and GOE can increase by doing easier spins. However, the BV difference between a level 4 FCCoSp and a LSp (for instance) is 0.80, which is more than what you get (or used to, with the new rules) by moving a triple jump to the second half: since most elite skaters would surely have no trouble at all doing a FCCoSp instead of a LSp with more or less the same GOE, why are (or were) they so willing to move jumps to the second half (which is tiring and extremely dificult mentally) but not to change their LSp into a FCCoSp? It's like deliberately giving up points, which just doesn't seem shrewd from someone who is universally recognized as the shrewdest of the shrewd (aka Eteri) :noshake:

In fact, one of Eteri's juniors Sasha Trusova does just this in the FS. Her layback is not as strong as her teammates' and that might be a reason why.

 

[gkelly]

A few reasons why layback spins are preferred:

- Layback spins are required elements in the SP

Well, not since last year, after having been required for decades.

But they are worth slightly more in base value than the other options.

The rest of your reasons are all valid.

 

[Miller]

Evgenia does 2 combination spins in the LP as well as a LSp4, hence partially towards the max of 2 combination spins and a FCSp4. Similarly Alena Kostornaya.

Perhaps Eteri is on the case after all, but there's better lower hanging fruit for many of her skaters.

 

[TontoK]

A few reasons why layback spins are preferred:

- Layback spins are required elements in the SP
- Layback spins have unique features for levels, so the levels on the other two spins are easier to achieve
- LSp4 for top skaters are easy +2/+3 GOEs across the board, leaves a strong impression in PCS to have an incredible layback-to-bielmann spin
- GOE is more important than base value (especially now with the -5/+5 GOE system)
- It's easier to train programs by repeating layback spin in LP, one fewer element to learn and commit to muscle memory (as cohen-esque mentioned)

My least favorite spin ever. I long for the days of the straightforward layback with beautiful steady position - and not the circus variety that CoP has driven skaters towards.

 

[TontoK]

I'm not much of a pairs fan - or at least I haven't kept up for years until recently -

But wasn't there once a rule for pairs that a FS death spiral should be of a different variation than the one presented in the SP?

If so, they could implement a rule of some sort in the singles concerning spins.

Disclaimer: This pairs thing may be a complete figment of my imagination. As I said, I haven't followed pairs closely for some time.

 

[lovaticcanada]

The problem is the current system rewards jumps over spins because they aren't worth as much. As a skater, would you rather learn a 4th spin to increase bv by 0.80, or would the time be better off improving or learning a new jump?

 

[skatenewbie]

Ive been thinking about this too. When doing Sochi FS, Mao did FCSp, FCCoSp and CCoSp, so she get high base value even when she got < calls. Few Japanese ladies tend to do FCCoSp instead of LSp in FS like Mai Mihara, Kaori Sakamoto and Yuhana Yokoi. Also Daria Panenkova and Alexandra Trusova from team Tutberidze does FCCoSp too. I notice other skater do FCCoSp, CCoSp and LSp instead CCoSp, LSp, FCSp like Evgenia Medvedeva, Karen Chen, Anna Pogorilaya, it have slightly higher BV by 0.3 point