Yes a choreo lift instead of a leveled lift would be nice!
TASS reports ISU technical committee intends to simplify the skaters' programs
- Thread starter NaVi
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Thinking about the change from seven to six jumping passes, this move would once again increase the value of triple-triple jumps, as you would need two to make a seven or eight triple program for the women. For most skaters, the third combinations often feels just thrown in there, with a couple of doubles just to make up the points. The double axel sequence rules could then remain as is, as a triple-triple would still be needed to fully maximize the program.
I wonder if there is some meaning about each jump repeated three times rule that was lost in translation. If the rule was you can have at most three of a kind of jump, no matter double, triple, or quad, that would make more sense to me. That way, you wouldn’t have two each of a double, triple, and quad in a program.
I wonder if there is some meaning about each jump repeated three times rule that was lost in translation. If the rule was you can have at most three of a kind of jump, no matter double, triple, or quad, that would make more sense to me. That way, you wouldn’t have two each of a double, triple, and quad in a program.
This actually makes a lot of sense. If true, I wonder what triggered the person suggesting this. I think I remember seeing a 2x4Lz + 2x3Lz program that I found quite annoying. That's quite niche though. I do think we could definitely do away with 2x3T + 2x2T programs as I often find +2T combinations can just drag the program a bit.
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I feel that rule changes are actually good for the athletes. The top ones will find a way to prosper. Like, doesn't this change open a gate for +3A+3A sequence? I would love to see that. If they throw in two 3-jump cascades are allowed instead of one combo and one cascade, even better. For the majority, six jumping passes will just result in longer periods of skating around the rink, arms to the sides or even down, gathering their breath and trying to smile.
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At this point I don't expect these suggestions to become actual rules. Jumpingbean is right, there are always so many proposals and hardly any of them become reality. Also the framing from TASS is of course... framing. You could also simply call these suggestions a shift towards the other aspects of skating. It does not necessarily have to be easier. It really is such a misconception that only jumps are tough and sport.
Ballet does not have jumps with many rotations and does anybody doubt that for instance high level ballet requires strength, stamina, drill even up to complete exhaustion of the body?
Anyone who has ever tried to glide backwards elegantly on one foot while leaning back with your upper body shall not tell me that is not sport.
What about most movements in gymnastics - are those not sport, for instance just holding your position on the rings?
Of course jumps look like the easiest to evaluate in terms of numbers and "objectivity", but let's not pretend the GOE on jumps aren't often just as creative as all the other judging. And whether you give a q or not on a quad combo can have quite a big effect.
As I said I'm in favour of getting rid of a jump passage in singles and an element in pairs to have more choreography, but I think such singular rules may not help if they aren't thought through very well. It needs to be considered what will happen in that case and which other rules need to accompany this one to have the desired effect.
A bit off topic: I would love to see a graphic depiction of the step sequences. As viewers who often have never done any higher level skating we are usually taught to recognize jumps (and revolutions), but what's going on in the step sequence remains a mystery at large. I think commentators need to talk about it more and "educate" the audience, but graphics would also help. That could help to appreciate it more. And then we could also think about having a second step sequence or something similar...
Ballet does not have jumps with many rotations and does anybody doubt that for instance high level ballet requires strength, stamina, drill even up to complete exhaustion of the body?
Anyone who has ever tried to glide backwards elegantly on one foot while leaning back with your upper body shall not tell me that is not sport.
What about most movements in gymnastics - are those not sport, for instance just holding your position on the rings?
Of course jumps look like the easiest to evaluate in terms of numbers and "objectivity", but let's not pretend the GOE on jumps aren't often just as creative as all the other judging. And whether you give a q or not on a quad combo can have quite a big effect.
As I said I'm in favour of getting rid of a jump passage in singles and an element in pairs to have more choreography, but I think such singular rules may not help if they aren't thought through very well. It needs to be considered what will happen in that case and which other rules need to accompany this one to have the desired effect.
A bit off topic: I would love to see a graphic depiction of the step sequences. As viewers who often have never done any higher level skating we are usually taught to recognize jumps (and revolutions), but what's going on in the step sequence remains a mystery at large. I think commentators need to talk about it more and "educate" the audience, but graphics would also help. That could help to appreciate it more. And then we could also think about having a second step sequence or something similar...
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Reducing jumping passes to six doesn't strike me as all that bad. More time for choreography and interesting moves isn't a bad thing. However, it will make PCS scores more valuable percentage-wise, which can be good or bad. PCS will still have the "cooking" or "mushrooming" problem and its effects will now be intensified. I'm +/- on this proposal.
Repeating a jump THREE times?!?! How ridiculous. I'm imagining a Bazylyuk program being: 4sal-eu-4sal, 4sal, 4toe// 3axel-3toe, 3axel, 3lutz. No need to worry about doing loops and affecting your hip, and no need to worry about flip/lutz wrong edge. In fact, if you don't do both flip and lutz in the same program, you wouldn't have to be dinged for wrong edge. If in the replay a "lutz" is inside it would just be considered a flip, and vice versa. In fact, that would help the "lippers" where they'd all just be called lutzes. So, not a fan of this proposal.
What these proposals appear to be doing is reducing technical jumping scores because presently the level is sad at the GP and WC (at least for the women) because they are inconsistent or can't jump and the champion/medalists look inferior to other champions in the past. This is a smoke and mirrors kind of solution to that visual problem, I reckon.
Repeating a jump THREE times?!?! How ridiculous. I'm imagining a Bazylyuk program being: 4sal-eu-4sal, 4sal, 4toe// 3axel-3toe, 3axel, 3lutz. No need to worry about doing loops and affecting your hip, and no need to worry about flip/lutz wrong edge. In fact, if you don't do both flip and lutz in the same program, you wouldn't have to be dinged for wrong edge. If in the replay a "lutz" is inside it would just be considered a flip, and vice versa. In fact, that would help the "lippers" where they'd all just be called lutzes. So, not a fan of this proposal.
What these proposals appear to be doing is reducing technical jumping scores because presently the level is sad at the GP and WC (at least for the women) because they are inconsistent or can't jump and the champion/medalists look inferior to other champions in the past. This is a smoke and mirrors kind of solution to that visual problem, I reckon.
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It would hurt a skater who also has a --3loop combo like Anna Shcherbakova. I think (hope) everyone by now realizes that a --2axel-2axel combination is worth more than a --Eu-3sal combination and that the -Eu-3sal combos are unnecessary. So having a -3loop combo as a third combo is worth much more than the usual innocuous (and oftentimes annoying) -2toe combos that we see all the time now.
Maybe there is something lost in translation, especially if the jumping passes are reduced to six. A skater with no loop or a skater with a questionable lutz/flip edge could easily work their deficiences around that. A skater with no ultra-si and no consistent loop could do 3lutz-2axel-2axel, 3lutz, 3lutz//3flip-3toe, 3flip, 3sal for maximum BV or a person with a bad flutz/lip could just replace the second half with 3loop and it's up to the technical caller to decide whether the first-half jump passes were flip or lutz based on replay.
The layouts of these programs would certainly be interesting, at least.
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I would too.
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Thank you for always helping with information!I would too.
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And then the already-rattled skater doesn't have the mental burden of trying to remember which jump it was in the first combination that was doubled instead of tripled, in which case he/she could still do a triple in the combo coming up, or was it the.....and the whole artistry part flies out the Zamboni gate. The skater becomes just a frantic human adding machine. Much simpler if they only have to remember their program as it was choreographed and know they did as many whatevers as are allowed already no matter how many revolutions it was. (Although then what happens if, say, there's a fall in the middle of a combo and the last jump was left off? Can it then get tacked on later somewhere else?)
Considering how rules would affect lower-ranked skaters who don't have all the triples let alone quads, what would be the options for a skater who, for example, is capable of 2A, 3S, 3T, and all the doubles but the 2Lz or 2Lo is iffy?
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I would too.
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Thank you very much, I will look at these in the next days.
I have wanted the number of jumping passes trimmed to 6 in the men’s and women’s free skates for years. A few extra seconds for edgework or originality, such as with the proposed choreographic spin, could do wonders to balance the programs.
Reducing the quantity of jumps doesn’t reduce the difficulty of those jumps. As NaVi noted, the women still could do 7 triples thanks to the combinations. The men still could try 5 quads and a triple axel.
I’d be fine with 3 or even 4 “successor” jumps spread over 2-3 combinations. But please, let’s make the aesthetically displeasing euler count toward the jump limit to discourage it.
Combinations that end with the loop look stunning to me, so maybe they could get a bonus, even for double loops. I also like snowed’s suggestion of having skaters attempt each of the 6 jump types, regardless of the number of rotations.
The pairs also could benefit from cutting one element in favor of more choreography, though I’m undecided on which one. Keeping 3 lifts and 1 jumping pass certainly emphasizes the difference between pairs and singles.
Reducing the quantity of jumps doesn’t reduce the difficulty of those jumps. As NaVi noted, the women still could do 7 triples thanks to the combinations. The men still could try 5 quads and a triple axel.
I’d be fine with 3 or even 4 “successor” jumps spread over 2-3 combinations. But please, let’s make the aesthetically displeasing euler count toward the jump limit to discourage it.
Combinations that end with the loop look stunning to me, so maybe they could get a bonus, even for double loops. I also like snowed’s suggestion of having skaters attempt each of the 6 jump types, regardless of the number of rotations.
The pairs also could benefit from cutting one element in favor of more choreography, though I’m undecided on which one. Keeping 3 lifts and 1 jumping pass certainly emphasizes the difference between pairs and singles.
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yes the long program needs to be simplified and make it more free (remember when it used to be called a "free program"??). I like where they're going here, specifically:
I'd also like them make the short program more "do or die" -- maybe double the deduction for falls and start specifying solo jump requirements like they do in juniors.
- 6 jumping passes
- 2 combos
- a non-leveled spin
I'd also like them make the short program more "do or die" -- maybe double the deduction for falls and start specifying solo jump requirements like they do in juniors.
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Rebecca (Karina!) I demand you change your profile pic back! LOL! I *just* downloaded my pic at the same time you did! Brilliant minds thinking alike! You got your prorated day rent and your teddy bear and two glasses back. We might have to go back to court to decide this! haha
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Please get rid of the euler. It looks like a stepout or a mistake.
The official name of the second phase of singles and pairs competitions is still called "free skating."
How free it actually is, or what skaters actually call it in casual conversation (or commentary) is another question.
So where would there be room in the sport for skaters to earn points by showing high-level edge-based skating skills (which many of the post-figures/pre-IJS era programs were lacking in)?
Maybe the edge/turn requirements could be spread out more across the program, e.g., the "clusters" could be elements in themselves similar to the one-foot turn sequence and twizzle sequences in free dances -- but instead require two different sequences, one on each foot, of (at least) three or four turns to demonstrate mastery of each of the difficult turns? These would not fill the whole ice and would not have to be connected to each other (other elements could happen in between them). They would probably be less choreographically interesting than the current step sequences, but they would be relatively brief and easier for commentators to point out so non-skaters could learn more about the actual skills involved.
And then have a leveled or unleveled step sequence that has to fill the whole length and/or width of the ice as efficiently as possible in a straight line or circular pattern, or serpentine?, as in 6.0 days? If leveled, the features would need to be a bit more forgiving of fitting in the difficult turns than currently but less forgiving of deviations in the pattern. Maybe more like the original ca. 2004-05 IJS step sequence requirements.
And would there still be a choreo sequence like now, where long gliding moves and creative jumps, etc., are more important than actual steps?
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dying!! I'll change it back tomorrow, if only for THE BABIES! THA BABIES!!!!
They would be able to repeat each jump three times, so they would then be able to fill nine slots (assuming that one combination will be two, the other three jumps) with the three jumps that they have mastered.
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