State of Russian Men's Figure Skating 2015-2016

[Perdita]

ITA. Those who know me can tell I am such a Kolyada fanatic, but I can't stand how these Russian men are treated. (I do like Kovtun.) People seem to just expect too much for a skater and then talk like they're useless once they fail to reach their expectation. And it's not only done by fans, but someone like Vasilliev talked like that too. I am stunned... It was heart breaking to read in a recent article Kovtun saying he is happy to be in the new team with Misha and Sasha because he was tired of all the responsibility he was imposed. It wasn't until this season that I started to follow Russian men's field but I've never seen such a high demand for a skater to do well for the country when I was following Japanese skaters. I hope Kovtun, Voronov and Menshov gets the credit they deserve and the upcoming skaters like Kolyada, Petrov and Pitkeev will not be thrown under the bus when they can't satisfy people's demands. I don't know how much these skaters get paid for being a national team but at the end of the day, they can only skate for themselves, not for the federation...

 

[Tutto]

Yeah, I don't like Kovtun's skating, but he's been carrying the program in the last two years or so. Since he's not a brilliant skater, he can't do it brilliantly, but his results are okay. In Bratislava he bombed the FS, but still fought for all the jumps and in the end (with Brezina's generous help...) that made it possible for him to stay on the podium. You could also argue that the Russian fed played quite a role in the way he develop/didn't develop. They IMO overburdened him with expectations early on and he crashed. Something they're prone to do in all disciplines...

For Russian Fed the medals is the only thing that counts - now and at any cost. There is no long term planning.
I am sure the pressure on Kolyada to do quads already began in fact began straight after the Nationals. Thats why Chebotareva promised that there will be a second quad, 4S in his programs at Euros. In the end they didn't go for it but maybe the valuable training time was spent on 4S and negatively impacted on his preparation for Euros. We don't know but it could be. Now Lakernik clearly shows his displeasure at the length of time it takes Kolyada to incorporate difficult elements into routine. Like what? Kolyada is only back from the injury and it is the first season he does 4T (in both SP & LP) but hey it is not quick enough. So as a fan of Kolyada I pray that Kovtun will remain number 1 and a main focus of the Russian Fed.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I know some people love Kolyada but they got a strange way of showing it.

To be honest, at least among the fans on the internet and the like, I think some people aren't even liking Mika that much, but - for different reasons - really don't like Maxim. They just wait for anyone they can support so Maxim won't be russian 1st anymore, even if it makes no sense. I've never been a fan of Max' skating (although this season I like his SP), but I don't get the huge dislike he still inspires in people. Yes, he is inconsistent and not the best performer ect., but IMO it's obvious that he is working very hard to improve and he deserves credit for that. Much as I love Mika, Maxim is the number one Russian male skater at the moment and deservedly so.

And generally, all of this piling on huge expectations on young guys and then tearing them apart if they don't meet them is nothing but a disaster. It's what IMO made Artur Gachinski, who was so talented and had so much potential, lose his confidence. It seems to have gotten a bit better, and I really hope Mika (and Maxim) will be able to enjoy their skating and live up to their own expectations regardless.

 

[Jaana]

A very interesting Kovtun interview translation was posted on FSUniverse by TAHbKA:

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/ind...-with-kovtun-sometimes-i-feel-old-aged.97813/

Kovtun speaks very nicely of Fernandez.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I know some people love Kolyada but they got a strange way of showing it. Why would they want him number one right out of the gate at his young age when he clearly isn't ready yet? Why put all that instant pressure on him and deny him the chance to grow at his own pace? I know people dislike Kovtun but admit it or not at this moment he still the best male skater Russia has. Kolyada and Petrov have great potential but they are not ready to carry Russian men's skating. Kovtun is doing a decent job even if its not a brilliant one.

Agreed. They tried to do the same with Kovtun at 2013 Worlds, and he is still being vilified for not performing well (coincidentally, Kolyada was also 5th at Euros). If Maxim were unable to go to Worlds, and Petrov and Kolyada went, and both failed to make top 12 (which is a veritable possibility), I'm sure a lot of people would be missing Kovtun then. :sarcasm:

 

[LRK]

Is anyone actually advocating dropping Kovtun off the team? Well, other than gmyers, I mean - and gmyers seems to think Russian Men are Doomed regardless.

 

[adelia]

Is anyone actually advocating dropping Kovtun off the team? Well, other than gmyers, I mean - and gmyers seems to think Russian Men are Doomed regardless.

Not that I remember.
Anyway, I think the only spot that has ever been in doubt for Worlds is V/T's (they have some minor injuries). The other disciplines will go as planned.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Is anyone actually advocating dropping Kovtun off the team? Well, other than gmyers, I mean - and gmyers seems to think Russian Men are Doomed regardless.

I wouldn't call them doomed. So far they've gotten GP silver from Kovtun and Pitkeev (well, at TEB for Kovtun). The season prior to that Kovtun got 2 GP golds, and Voronov got 2 GP silvers (and bronze at the GPF), with Kovtun coming 4th at Worlds. It's not ideal, but it's not bad or gloom/doom.

Russian men are only doomed in the same way US ladies are "doomed" because of the Russian and Japanese powerhouses, or the US men are "doomed" because none of them have the TES+PCS to beat a Hanyu/Fernandez/Chan/Jin/Uno if the latters skate well.

The ones who would rather Kovtun not be on the World team are simply haters, probably still fuming that Kovtun won 3 Russian titles in a row, and guys they were hoping would dethrone him (Voronov/Menshov/Pitkeev) didn't even remotely step up at Nationals. Kovtun's not the greatest skater by any means, but he's gradually improving, he has huge technical content (the most of all the Russians), and he's keeping Russian men on the map.

I do really like Kolyada though (the same way I really liked Kovtun a few years ago when I saw him in juniors), and think he's got a ton of potential as long as he continues to focus on developing all aspects of his skating and doesn't just make it about the big elements, which IMO, have been the Achilles heel of the Russian men under CoP, and only Plushenko with his consistency and reputation has been able to get away with it.

 

[gmyers]

Is anyone actually advocating dropping Kovtun off the team? Well, other than gmyers, I mean - and gmyers seems to think Russian Men are Doomed regardless.

This is what gachinski just said. That Russian men are doomed because there's no development on anything other than jumps. That makes sense as kovtun is only number one because he commits to five quads and that's all Russia cares about.

http://rsport.ru/interview/20160201/892556653.html

Well, maybe the other guys could skate better.

Also, it's thanks to the "mediocre" Kovtun that Russia has still had 2 spots at Worlds the past two years (if Russia had relied on Voronov, they'd only have 1 spot at Worlds this year). I'd say he redeemed himself since WC2013 when he was stupidly tossed as a Junior into a Senior Worlds prematurely leaving Russia with only 1 Sochi spot (which of course, wasn't used ultimately).

Also, that "extreme mediocrity" is the only Russian to have won a GP in the past 6 years (having won both GPs last season) -- not to mention he JUST won bronze at Euros, with his mediocrity.

If Russia retired Kovtun right now, they'd have to rely on Kolyada (a junior coming up) and Petrov (who doesn't even have a quad)... Pitkeev tanked at Nats, as did Voronov and Menshov.

Both petrov and kolyada did skate better they just didnt score better than kovtun at euros. Russian Federation lobbying for kovtun. It is extemely medicore to come in sixth in free skwte in euros in men's. its an Astoudingly weak field. Like sixth in Russian ladies in 2007.

The reason kovtun won that was because hanyu collided with yan.

I wouldn't call them doomed. So far they've gotten GP silver from Kovtun and Pitkeev (well, at TEB for Kovtun). The season prior to that Kovtun got 2 GP golds, and Voronov got 2 GP silvers (and bronze at the GPF), with Kovtun coming 4th at Worlds. It's not ideal, but it's not bad or gloom/doom.

Russian men are only doomed in the same way US ladies are "doomed" because of the Russian and Japanese powerhouses, or the US men are "doomed" because none of them have the TES+PCS to beat a Hanyu/Fernandez/Chan/Jin/Uno if the latters skate well.

The ones who would rather Kovtun not be on the World team are simply haters, probably still fuming that Kovtun won 3 Russian titles in a row, and guys they were hoping would dethrone him (Voronov/Menshov/Pitkeev) didn't even remotely step up at Nationals. Kovtun's not the greatest skater by any means, but he's gradually improving, he has huge technical content (the most of all the Russians), and he's keeping Russian men on the map.

I do really like Kolyada though (the same way I really liked Kovtun a few years ago when I saw him in juniors), and think he's got a ton of potential as long as he continues to focus on developing all aspects of his skating and doesn't just make it about the big elements, which IMO, have been the Achilles heel of the Russian men under CoP, and only Plushenko with his consistency and reputation has been able to get away with it.

Did you watch 2015 Russian nationals? Voronov was much better than kovtun and he didnt win. Kolyada was better than kovtun in 2016 and he didnt win. Russian officials won't let anyone but kovtun win.

Fact: many times plushenko had all level 4 spins. Petrov went to euros with all level 3.

 

[Sugarpova]

For Russian Fed the medals is the only thing that counts - now and at any cost. There is no long term planning.

hmm I dont really agree with that
Maybe not referring to the men but the way Liza spoke of the Fed's support of her during the injury or how they supported Julia's move to Urmanov.
I dont really think only the medals here & now mean in general.

I do admit that I mainly dislike Kovtun not b/c of his skating even but b/c he's held up by the fed when de doesnt deserve to (like at this Euros vs Amodio who should have gotten the medal)
& it doesnt do favours to Kovtun himself as well
Why bother improving if u still get medals?

I do agree that he's the top skater for now & he will be until some other man can have stable/difficult jumps.

I wonder if there's any news on Adian. Hopefully he recovers well poor bb. I was so sad for him at nats:sad21:

 

[Jaana]

I do admit that I mainly dislike Kovtun not b/c of his skating even but b/c he's held up by the fed when de doesnt deserve to (like at this Euros vs Amodio who should have gotten the medal)
& it doesnt do favours to Kovtun himself as well
Why bother improving if u still get medals?

I do agree that he's the top skater for now & he will be until some other man can have stable/difficult jumps.

I wonder if there's any news on Adian. Hopefully he recovers well poor bb. I was so sad for him at nats:sad21:

I don´t understand why to hate Kovtun for something that is definetely not his fault! The Federation should get your hate, LOL, if needed. The other Russians just need to beat him at the Nationals.... But to dethrone a 3-time National champion (=next time) will not be easy. The contender needs to be a lot better as this is figure skating where the reputation counts.

About Europeans, it would have been nice if Amodio had won a medal, but unfortunately his sp did not allow it being 10 points behind Kovtun. In the freeskate Kovtun had 3 mistakes in the beginning but he did not give up and the rest was good.

 

[gmyers]

hmm I dont really agree with that
Maybe not referring to the men but the way Liza spoke of the Fed's support of her during the injury or how they supported Julia's move to Urmanov.
I dont really think only the medals here & now mean in general.

I do admit that I mainly dislike Kovtun not b/c of his skating even but b/c he's held up by the fed when de doesnt deserve to (like at this Euros vs Amodio who should have gotten the medal)
& it doesnt do favours to Kovtun himself as well
Why bother improving if u still get medals?

I do agree that he's the top skater for now & he will be until some other man can have stable/difficult jumps.

I wonder if there's any news on Adian. Hopefully he recovers well poor bb. I was so sad for him at nats:sad21:

When ksenia doronina was two time russia champ Russia didn't wait for someone to beat her they dumped her.

 

[silverlake22]

I don´t understand why to hate Kovtun for something that is definetely not his fault! The Federation should get your hate, LOL, if needed. The other Russians just need to beat him at the Nationals.... But to dethrone a 3-time National champion (=next time) will not be easy. The contender needs to be a lot better as this is figure skating where the reputation counts.

About Europeans, it would have been nice if Amodio had won a medal, but unfortunately his sp did not allow it being 10 points behind Kovtun. In the freeskate Kovtun had 3 mistakes in the beginning but he did not give up and the rest was good.

I actually have to agree with this. Kovtun's PCS at Euros may have been a few points to high, but to say he wasn't punished for his poor FS would be inaccurate. You do realize Kovtun was 6th in the FS right? Behind Javi, Florent, Mikhail, Bychenko, and Righini? He won bronze because of his SP where he landed 2 quads. Amodio was 2nd in the FS about 9 points ahead of Kovtun! He simply couldn't catch up because he did 0 quads in the SP and had some other mistakes. It was so close between him and Amodio overall, and the Euros result was an example of losing with the SP, Amodio lost a medal at Euros because of the SP, Maxim was able to hang on because of his SP. It's really as simple as that.

I mean, I think the results could have gone either way, I'd be fine with Amodio in 3rd and Kovtun 4th, but the margin was 1.25 points as is, that's really close so getting all huffy about a result that's that close is a little silly IMO.

 

[gmyers]

I don´t understand why to hate Kovtun for something that is definetely not his fault! The Federation should get your hate, LOL, if needed. The other Russians just need to beat him at the Nationals.... But to dethrone a 3-time National champion (=next time) will not be easy. The contender needs to be a lot better as this is figure skating where the reputation counts.

About Europeans, it would have been nice if Amodio had won a medal, but unfortunately his sp did not allow it being 10 points behind Kovtun. In the freeskate Kovtun had 3 mistakes in the beginning but he did not give up and the rest was good.

He did give up. There was no artistry and no performance. He was not punished in any way. His pcs was too high. Performance needed to be under 5. IN needed to be under 5.

 

[gmyers]

I actually have to agree with this. Kovtun's PCS at Euros may have been a few points to high, but to say he wasn't punished for his poor FS would be inaccurate. You do realize Kovtun was 6th in the FS right? Behind Javi, Florent, Mikhail, Bychenko, and Righini? He won bronze because of his SP where he landed 2 quads. Amodio was 2nd in the FS about 9 points ahead of Kovtun! He simply couldn't catch up because he did 0 quads in the SP and had some other mistakes. It was so close between him and Amodio overall, and the Euros result was an example of losing with the SP, Amodio lost a medal at Euros because of the SP, Maxim was able to hang on because of his SP. It's really as simple as that.

I mean, I think the results could have gone either way, I'd be fine with Amodio in 3rd and Kovtun 4th, but the margin was 1.25 points as is, that's really close so getting all huffy about a result that's that close is a little silly IMO.

Its not silly. Amodio deserved bronze.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I do admit that I mainly dislike Kovtun not b/c of his skating even but b/c he's held up by the fed when de doesnt deserve to (like at this Euros vs Amodio who should have gotten the medal)

I don't think he was held up. Look at the short program, and you see that with 2 quads (even with a 3A fall), Kovtun was able to build enough of a lead over Amodio, where Amodio couldn't catch up. Also, the judges were rather kind to Amodio on GOE (e.g. his obviously two-footed quad salchow in his FS got mainly +2's) and he had a lot of shaky landings. Don't get me wrong, I would have loved for Florent to medal (I certainly like him more than Kovtun, in general... and it would have been a story book ending to his tumultuous career), but Kovtun's bronze was deserved.

It just seems like Kovtun can't catch a break though -- if he wins bronze, people will vilify him for beating Amodio... if he comes 4th, people will ridicule him for not even medaling and getting beaten by "even Amodio". He's definitely one of those skaters that you just know his haters are waiting with bated breath and crossed fingers to see him fail or get surpassed, and he continually disappoints them in that regard (maybe that's why I actually kinda like him ).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I actually have to agree with this. Kovtun's PCS at Euros may have been a few points to high, but to say he wasn't punished for his poor FS would be inaccurate. You do realize Kovtun was 6th in the FS right? Behind Javi, Florent, Mikhail, Bychenko, and Righini? He won bronze because of his SP where he landed 2 quads. Amodio was 2nd in the FS about 9 points ahead of Kovtun! He simply couldn't catch up because he did 0 quads in the SP and had some other mistakes. It was so close between him and Amodio overall, and the Euros result was an example of losing with the SP, Amodio lost a medal at Euros because of the SP, Maxim was able to hang on because of his SP. It's really as simple as that.

I mean, I think the results could have gone either way, I'd be fine with Amodio in 3rd and Kovtun 4th, but the margin was 1.25 points as is, that's really close so getting all huffy about a result that's that close is a little silly IMO.

Thank you. This so much. Although Kovtun hate + People tending to disregard the SP and only consider the LP = suggestions that Kovtun didn't deserve bronze.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Its not silly. Amodio deserved bronze.

He did not. He was overscored on GOE (see: his 2-footed quad salchow, and other iffy landings) and he tripled his quad in his SP, whereas Kovtun did two.

 

[gmyers]

I don't think he was held up. Look at the short program, and you see that with 2 quads (even with a 3A fall), Kovtun was able to build enough of a lead over Amodio, where Amodio couldn't catch up. Also, the judges were rather kind to Amodio on GOE (e.g. his obviously two-footed quad salchow in his FS got mainly +2's) and he had a lot of shaky landings. Don't get me wrong, I would have loved for Florent to medal (I certainly like him more than Kovtun, in general... and it would have been a story book ending to his tumultuous career), but Kovtun's bronze was deserved.

It just seems like Kovtun can't catch a break though -- if he wins bronze, people will vilify him for beating Amodio... if he comes 4th, people will ridicule him for not even medaling and getting beaten by "even Amodio". He's definitely one of those skaters that you just know his haters are waiting with bated breath and crossed fingers to see him fail or get surpassed, and he continually disappoints them in that regard (maybe that's why I actually kinda like him ).

It is humiliating to Russia that bychenko beat all the russians. Kovtun doesn't have the talent to beat bychenko and Russia put all its support to kovtun. Nothing for kolyada or petrov. Russian men are supposed to be good? Kovtun is seen as a legacy carrier. He is ruining it. He's only number one because of attempts of five quads. By losing to bychenko he fulfills all the criticism-All the complaints that he's a waste of a number one. Kovtun pcs was ridiculous. Kovtun personally opposes being artistic and performing anyway but at euros he was truly at war with those parts of skating. No pcs over 5 is deserved especially in IN and PE. Kovtun was far worse in the lp than amodio was in the sp. people can love awful sure. People loved to laugh at doronina. But Russia stopped her career! Because there's supposed to be a standard of excellence! Same thing will happen to kovtun.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It is humiliating to Russia that bychenko beat all the russians. Kovtun doesn't have the talent to beat bychenko and Russia put all its support to kovtun. Nothing for kolyada or petrov. Russian men are supposed to be good? Kovtun is seen as a legacy carrier. He is ruining it. He's only number one because of attempts of five quads. By losing to bychenko he fulfills all the criticism-All the complaints that he's a waste of a number one. Kovtun pcs was ridiculous. Kovtun personally opposes being artistic and performing anyway but at euros he was truly at war with those parts of skating. No pcs over 5 is deserved especially in IN and PE. Kovtun was far worse in the lp than amodio was in the sp. people can love awful sure. People loved to laugh at doronina. But Russia stopped her career! Because there's supposed to be a standard of excellence! Same thing will happen to kovtun.

Oh, get over yourself. Bychenko won silver because he skated well, so stop trying to trivialize Bychenko by saying it's humiliating to lose to performances like his. He was the only guy to have a clean SP with a quad, and his FS was very good, including a quad, a 3A, a 3Z+3S and 3F+3T combos. Saying it's humiliating to lose to Bychenko is like saying it's humiliating for all those guys at 2013 Worlds to lose to a skater like Denis Ten who hadn't placed higher than 5th at any GP/significant competition prior to winning World silver. It completely trivializes the wonderful performances done by Bychenko/Ten. Bychenko's Euros score would have essentially tied him for 5th at last year's Worlds, so it isn't exactly humiliating to lose to that. I'm sick of people trying to tear down skater A by saying it's humiliating or amusing or telling that they lost to skater B who they were supposed to beat (when skater B skated extremely well, at that).

You think Kolyada (with 1 quad in each program) and Petrov (with no quads) did any better than Kovtun (2 and 3 quads)? Obviously given the score line, they didn't. As for Kovtun not having the talent to beat Bychenko -- if you recall correctly, Kovtun easily beat Bychenko at Worlds last year... and the other Russian, Voronov, was closer to Bychenko in the standings than he was to Kovtun: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2015/CAT001RS.HTM

Newsflash: Russian men haven't been particularly good under CoP -- the only reason Plushenko was getting winning results is because - along with excellent consistency - he had the reputation to get huge PCS even with empty, jumpfest programs. None of these Russian men had the benefit of that pre-CoP reputation and they are all bred under the ideals of (a lot of) Russian men's skating -- do your jumps cleanly, execute an energetic final footwork, and the artistic scores should follow..... which isn't what is rewarded under CoP. That's why so few of them have had the skating skills of other top skaters, because their focus has been on the jump elements. So in a sense, YES, they are carrying out a legacy of Russian men's skating under CoP. The whole sensibility of Russian men's skating is anti-CoP... you'll never get a Takahashi or a Chan out of them because their priority is developing strong jumpers (although that's starting to shift now gradually with Kolyada/Aliev/Pitkeev, IMO). If you recall, Kovtun as a junior showed great artistic potential, but then his focus switched over to landing the jumps when he reached senior level.

As for, he's "only" number 1 because of his 5 quad attempts. Next thing you'll say that the "only" reason Jin made the GPF is because of his 6 quad attempts... "The only reason he's doing so well is because he's doing great content." Like... duh. For the longest time, Kovtun was only one of 2 men trying 5 quads. To suggest that he doesn't deserve PCS over 5 really says it all -- you don't like the guy, but he's clearly the best Russian man at this point and it's not because his federation is propping up (though they are), it's because he's got way more technical content than the other guys, and the other guys aren't stepping up and giving a legitimate case for the Russian federation to switch their favour from Kovtun to one of them. Kovtun ain't "ruining" anything -- if anything, he's getting results at Worlds that are ensuring Russia still has had 2 spots the past two seasons, when Voronov wouldn't have maintained 2 spots. Kovtun didn't beat Kolyada and Petrov because he was propped, he beat them because Kolyada made costly SP errors (two in both the SP and LP), and Petrov doesn't have a quad (and isn't like a Jason Brown-level skater who can get away with it).

Also, Doronina's career wasn't "stopped by Russia", it was halted by a season off due to mononucleosis, and then she wasn't nearly the same calibre attempting to comeback after a year off, particularly with Sotnikova/Tuktamysheva/Leonova/Makarova coming up. Gurl still won 2 national titles though.