State of the U.S. Men's Figure Skating for 2014-15

[Icey]

Just throwing this out there: I'd really love to see Doug Razzano, Ricky Dornbush and Joshua Farris do well this year!

And I would add to that list Stephen Carriere

 

[StitchMonkey]

No, it wouldn't have been better and I did not mean to imply that at this particular competition Jason should not have won. I just don't want that kind of skate winning a gold to become commonplace and I feel sure it won't.


Jason and his team can dawdle with technical advancement if they wish, but I don't think that will be to Jason's advantage. Lest I am being misunderstood, I very much enjoy Jason's skating, but if he continues to lag technically he will be left behind competitively. He not only has to deal with his current competitors, but the promising ones that are on the horizon that he will be in competition with in 2018 and earlier. I suspect a coaching change might take place in the not too distant future.

I highly doubt we would see a coaching change without a scandal. I could see a coaching addition or expansion happening, but I don't see him dropping Kori. I believe Kori has said that she is comfortable with outside help and other opinions, I suspect a tech coach/coordinator situation would be more likely than a change.

 

[Mrs. P]

Jason and his team can dawdle with technical advancement if they wish, but I don't think that will be to Jason's advantage. Lest I am being misunderstood, I very much enjoy Jason's skating, but if he continues to lag technically he will be left behind competitively. He not only has to deal with his current competitors, but the promising ones that are on the horizon that he will be in competition with in 2018 and earlier. I suspect a coaching change might take place in the not too distant future.

What you're saying is the SAME things people were saying when he was in juniors: He's delaying the 3A too long, he needs a coaching change, he's going to get steamrolled by younger skaters.

Just change the "3A" to "quad" and you have the same scenario. I don't think Kori is given enough credit for helping him have a competitive mindset. The boy competes his heart out and does not give up on programs, even when they aren't going well. That is something that shouldn't be underestimated.

Jason and Kori are WELL AWARE that they need to up the arsenal. But they're not going to twiddle around and wait for it to magically appear. So they do what they can do (milk extra points with layout, etc...) until it comes together.

 

[ice coverage]

Well I don't think they would be upset about winning! Maybe another way to put it is that they don't want to lose the national gold, i.e. be the favorite, first after short and then not do well in long. But I still don't think that a silver is going to be seen as a lose or a disappointment this year. At junior worlds, he clearly looked disappointed with silver, I don't think that would be the case at nationals this year. I just don't know how much his team likely wants him to be in a position to feel the need to defend his title three times before the Olympics. It is great if you can do it, but it is stressful and difficult. As big picture as team Jason is, I can't imagine the defending his title stress angle has not occurred to them. Wining this year, would be more work and stress in the long run.



I know it was not at me, but I am going to answer anyway. I think it is a 2016/2017 goal. My guess is this year is about defending his silver. Max Aaron had some good comments recently about learning how to defend a title. He has a point. So a good path for Jason would be to learn to defend his silver/maintain standing this year, then go for gold next year. If it does not happen in 2016, he can do it it 2017 and still have time to defend his title before the Olympics.
For him it is not just about winning a competition this year, it is about maintaining momentum.

I understand what you are saying in theory about the stress of defending a title, etc.

But even if a skater were to prioritize/schedule his goals in accordance with your theory, I question how he could safely put the plan into practice.

In other words, how would a skater precisely calibrate his performance at Nats so as to secure a spot on the World team (which I assume going forward would be very beneficial every year as Jason looks toward 2018) without being in "danger" of winning the whole thing?? Seems that any attempt to do so would create stress of its own.
Too many variables -- namely, the scores of his competitors -- are out of the skater's control.

And I always think of Jeremy Abbott, who made a conscious decision to de-emphasize Nats and to focus on being at his best at Worlds. Minor problem: he missed making the World team entirely.

... Lest I am being misunderstood, I very much enjoy Jason's skating, but if he continues to lag technically he will be left behind competitively. He not only has to deal with his current competitors, but the promising ones that are on the horizon that he will be in competition with in 2018 and earlier. I suspect a coaching change might take place in the not too distant future.

I highly doubt we would see a coaching change without a scandal. I could see a coaching addition or expansion happening, but I don't see him dropping Kori. I believe Kori has said that she is comfortable with outside help and other opinions, I suspect a tech coach/coordinator situation would be more likely than a change.

Unthinkable to me also that Jason would part ways with Kori. They have used consultants in the past, so I agree with Stitch that Jason will stick with Kori -- without being deprived of other resources.

 

[Mrs. P]

I understand what you are saying in theory about the stress of defending a title, etc.

But even if a skater were to prioritize/schedule his goals in accordance with your theory, I question how he could safely put the plan into practice.

In other words, how would a skater precisely calibrate his performance at Nats so as to secure a spot on the World team (which I assume going forward would be very beneficial every year as Jason looks toward 2018) without being in "danger" of winning the whole thing. Seems that any attempt to do so would create stress of its own.
Too many variables -- namely, the scores of his competitors -- are out of the skater's control.

And I always think of Jeremy Abbott, who made a conscious decision to de-emphasize Nats and to focus on being at his best at Worlds. Minor problem: he missed making the World team entirely.

I agree it's dangerous to "lose on purpose." In interview, Jason has said time and time again that his goal is to perform the programs as he trains them, i.e. clean and well. I think with that mindset, he probably knows he has a good shot at winning if he turns in those two clean programs.

 

[Sandpiper]

To be honest, I'm more concerned about Jason's UR calls than his lack of a quad. With the way the rules are going, and obsession with URs/edges, Jason's URs could do him in. I'm worried he'll become like Mao Asada, with the judges eyeing every jump after he gets a reputation as a UR'er.

What I'd really want is for Jason to make his jumps bigger and fully rotated. Right now, his jumps look pretty small at times, and it does hinder his performances a little. Getting that extra height will give his skating more of a "Wow!" factor, imo (and might dig him out of the "chronic UR'er" trap in terms of the tech panel). And perhaps this will help him learn the quad?

 

[Jammers]

I don't think Jason will ever be a big jumper like Farris for instance. He's more like Adam Rippon nice jumps but they don't stand out. But i think not even trying the quad is a mistake. He's not going to move up much internationally without at least one quad and he could even be beat at home without one.

 

[Mrs. P]

To be honest, I'm more concerned about Jason's UR calls than his lack of a quad. With the way the rules are going, and obsession with URs/edges, Jason's URs could do him in. I'm worried he'll become like Mao Asada, with the judges eyeing every jump after he gets a reputation as a UR'er.

What I'd really want is for Jason to make his jumps bigger and fully rotated. Right now, his jumps look pretty small at times, and it does hinder his performances a little. Getting that extra height will give his skating more of a "Wow!" factor, imo (and might dig him out of the "chronic UR'er" trap in terms of the tech panel). And perhaps this will help him learn the quad?

I think he tends to get them when he is tight but he usually cleans them up for the next event. And in the SP he has never gotten a UR -- not a single one -- since he's been a senior internationally, including on the 3A, so I think it's more of a situational thing. (His consistency on the SP is pretty awesome, actually.)

He doesn't have the biggest jumps ever but I think they're not super tiny either. I do think he has improved -- the 3A in the SP for example looked like had some more height.

 

[supsu]

To be honest, I'm more concerned about Jason's UR calls than his lack of a quad. With the way the rules are going, and obsession with URs/edges, Jason's URs could do him in. I'm worried he'll become like Mao Asada, with the judges eyeing every jump after he gets a reputation as a UR'er.

What I'd really want is for Jason to make his jumps bigger and fully rotated. Right now, his jumps look pretty small at times, and it does hinder his performances a little. Getting that extra height will give his skating more of a "Wow!" factor, imo (and might dig him out of the "chronic UR'er" trap in terms of the tech panel). And perhaps this will help him learn the quad?

Good point. Is jumping big a technique or power question? Same with his speed.. is it that his skating skills aren't strong enough or is he just nervous in competition or what is it..? Cause with his performance ability combined with Patrick-like awesome skating skills he'd be Quad or no quad...

 

[unico]

I think if he works on his overall speed (and especially speed going into the jumps) then it'll be easier for him to get the rotation. Love Brown as I do, he is still quite slow across the ice. And that's why I think when he gets a bit nervous/a bit tight then his jumps start to UR.

Good point. Is jumping big a technique or power question? Same with his speed.. is it that his skating skills aren't strong enough or is he just nervous in competition or what is it..? Cause with his performance ability combined with Patrick-like awesome skating skills he'd be Quad or no quad...

I think jumping big is a power question, but rotating fast is a speed question (and also a body type question).

 

[Mrs. P]

I think if he works on his overall speed (and especially speed going into the jumps) then it'll be easier for him to get the rotation. Love Brown as I do, he is still quite slow across the ice. And that's why I think when he gets a bit nervous/a bit tight then his jumps start to UR.

FWIW, having seen the men live at Nationals, Jason is actually pretty average, speed wise. He's nowhere near as fast as Max Aaron -- but Max Aaron is really fast.

Jason can probably stand to improve on speed, but he's hardly a snail like Caroline Zhang.

 

[Mrs. P]

Anyway, to shift the discussion, here is Adam's SP from Finlandia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MIxRqSNY24

Not his best day: fell on the quad, struggled on the 3A. But the 3Z (rippon)-3T was nice and I think overall the program is nice.

 

[Sandpiper]

Jason's jumps aren't tiny, but they look small for an elite skater. The thing is, if his jumps remain small, he'd still lose to the Hanyu's and Fernandez's of this world even if he gets a two-quad LP. He does have very complex transitions (he's a bit like Yulia in this regard), but so do many of his competitors. Add to that the UR problems, and I have to conclude it's not just "Add a quad, instant win."

I don't have an issue with his speed though. He's not Max Aaron, but he's not visibly slow Goebel-style. We can't all be Max Aaron.

 

[WeakAnkles]

I think if he works on his overall speed (and especially speed going into the jumps) then it'll be easier for him to get the rotation. Love Brown as I do, he is still quite slow across the ice. And that's why I think when he gets a bit nervous/a bit tight then his jumps start to UR.


I think jumping big is a power question, but rotating fast is a speed question (and also a body type question).

Lord knows I'm no techie, but I would assume that one of the reasons he appears slow across the ice is because his programs are loaded with transitions. It's never Crossover City. But then I'm no techie (I leave that to the experts here).

Everyone is so impatient. I think Kori is smart. For one thing, Jason will probably still have functioning hips at the age of 35.

 

[unico]

FWIW, having seen the men live at Nationals, Jason is actually pretty average, speed wise. He's nowhere near as fast as Max Aaron -- but Max Aaron is really fast.

Jason can probably stand to improve on speed, but he's hardly a snail like Caroline Zhang.

Interesting, live can look quite different from on camera. But hey, at nationals he was on fire and I think that he tends to slow down from his good-average speed when he's nervous, hence the UR issues. I remember in his nerve-y LP skates at Sochi even Kurt Browning mentioned that he seemed to slow down. That's why, in his specific case I think that it's something that he could/should (and probably is ) working on that will help so that even when he's nervous he won't tend to UR because he'll still have the speed to back up his jumps. I don't think there's anything wrong with his jumping technique.

Lord knows I'm no techie, but I would assume that one of the reasons he appears slow across the ice is because his programs are loaded with transitions. It's never Crossover City. But then I'm no techie (I leave that to the experts here).

Everyone is so impatient. I think Kori is smart. For one thing, Jason will probably still have functioning hips at the age of 35.

I think when he's not nervous (like... competing at the Olympics for the first time at 19, or debuting new programs), then he manages his speed/transitions fine enough. But as opposed to skaters that pop/fall down on jumps when they get nervous, he seems to just get tight and doesn't dig into his edges as much. We're talking about a brilliant man who is great in so many areas that comparatively, I think his speed could use work. And working on speed/skating skill basics won't kill his hips btw I think it was Scott Hamilton who mentioned that learning figures actually helped the body develop muscles/posture that helped prevent injury?

 

[HanDomi]

I don't know if big jumps rely only on power, I think on technic also on some point. Look at Chan. For me most of his jumps are pretty average height besides his quad that is really high and powerfull.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Actually the one I would like to talk about is Ricky Dornbush. I absolutely loved the Sherlock program and thought, what potential! And it's never really panned out. I thought his Beatles program last year was better than people on here gave him credit for. It just looked like he let the crowd reaction to Jason's LP rattle him at Nationals last year.

Smart idea to keep the Sons of Italy SP? Hmm, perhaps. But then, Coldplay for the LP? With vocals?

I'd clutch my pearls if I owned any...

 

[Meoima]

I think it was Scott Hamilton who mentioned that learning figures actually helped the body develop muscles/posture that helped prevent injury?

oh interesting. But I've always thought all skaters are taught figure if not advanced then beginners level?

 

[Mrs. P]

Actually the one I would like to talk about is Ricky Dornbush. I absolutely loved the Sherlock program and thought, what potential! And it's never really panned out. I thought his Beatles program last year was better than people on here gave him credit for. It just looked like he let the crowd reaction to Jason's LP rattle him at Nationals last year.

Smart idea to keep the Sons of Italy SP? Hmm, perhaps. But then, Coldplay for the LP? With vocals?

I'd clutch my pearls if I owned any...

Ricky had a nice start at Lombardia Trophy, I think! I think the Coldplay program isn't that bad. I really like the Sons of Italy SP, so I'm cool with keeping it.

And I agree, I really though he had a breakout year with that Sherlock program and am sorry to see that things haven't panned out since then. He had a glimmer of possibility when he had that awesome SP at Nationals last year.

He looks good so far, here's hoping he has a good season.

 

[Sandpiper]

I don't know if big jumps rely only on power, I think on technic also on some point. Look at Chan. For me most of his jumps are pretty average height besides his quad that is really high and powerfull.

Even Chan's non-quad jumps, when landed, are bigger and of better quality than Jason's (well, we can debate the axel... Chan's is bigger but I think his landings are quite wonky even if he doesn't step out).

When I watch Chan, I don't really think of his jumps unless he falls. They're big enough to support the program. With Jason, there are times (e.g. Nebelhorn SP) where I actually note, "Oh, the jumps are a bit small" when I'm watching.