State of the U.S. Men's Figure Skating for 2014-15

[noskates]

I'll repeat what I said earlier. Kori Ade said she would NOT put the quad in Jason's program until it was very consistent as she did not want to ruin his self-confidence. I really like the fact that she's that tuned into her skater and I think he's better for it. But I really wish people would concentrate on the whole skater and not just his ability to land a quad. So many programs are ruined for the attempt of one.

 

[TMC]

I'll repeat what I said earlier. Kori Ade said she would NOT put the quad in Jason's program until it was very consistent as she did not want to ruin his self-confidence. I really like the fact that she's that tuned into her skater and I think he's better for it. But I really wish people would concentrate on the whole skater and not just his ability to land a quad. So many programs are ruined for the attempt of one.

:agree:

 

[Scovies]

I'll repeat what I said earlier. Kori Ade said she would NOT put the quad in Jason's program until it was very consistent as she did not want to ruin his self-confidence. I really like the fact that she's that tuned into her skater and I think he's better for it. But I really wish people would concentrate on the whole skater and not just his ability to land a quad. So many programs are ruined for the attempt of one.

I very much appreciate Kori Ade's approach to coaching (and strongly defended Jason's quad-less scores at nationals, along with the logic of not putting a jump into a program until it's consistent in practice), but on the other hand, we're quickly approaching the point where men's programs without a quad are at about the same caliber as women's programs without 7 triples. I'm not sure how to balance Jason's innate awesomeness with the need to not get left in the dust by his competitors. I adore Jason, but if he doesn't start putting a quad in for next season, I'm going to be really concerned. I'd love to see him throw one in the free skate at 4CC, because I think this is the one time he can attempt it without it being detrimental to the rest of his season.

 

[TontoK]

I very much appreciate Kori Ade's approach to coaching (and strongly defended Jason's quad-less scores at nationals, along with the logic of not putting a jump into a program until it's consistent in practice), but on the other hand, we're quickly approaching the point where men's programs without a quad are at about the same caliber as women's programs without 7 triples. I'm not sure how to balance Jason's innate awesomeness with the need to not get left in the dust by his competitors. I adore Jason, but if he doesn't start putting a quad in for next season, I'm going to be really concerned. I'd love to see him throw one in the free skate at 4CC, because I think this is the one time he can attempt it without it being detrimental to the rest of his season.

I had promised myself not to get into any more quad posts regarding Jason. Those discussions tend to be contentious. However... I think what I've bolded has great merit.

It's not tough to imagine a scenario in which Jason needs to climb a couple of spots in the long at WC to secure a three-man team for next year. He's going to need the TES from the quad to get there. Do we really want that to be his first competitive attempt?

And before we get on a tear of "he needs to skate only for himself," I think that, other than the Olympic Team Event or WTT, fighting for team placements is one of the very few times in which a team component comes into figure skating. Being part of the US Team means carrying your weight to contribute to team success.

And, besides that, Jason may need that third spot next year to get his OWN ticket punched for WC.

 

[Mrs. P]

Jason takes being part of Team USA seriously. The kid's entire wardrobe is practically Team USA gear.

So while I think the strategy is for him to develop slowly and maximize his current skills, he is also aware of a certain benchmark he needs to meet. I know that sounds sort of contradictory, but it really isn't.

It wouldn't surprise me if he sat down with Kori at the beginning of the season with a piece of paper with a certain score in mind they want to reach by the end of the season. Then they look at his skill set and said, what would it take for me for me to get to this number? They probably have a layout they start with as a building block and then change the program over the season (as they did with his FS this year).

Here's the thing, he scored 159.24 at Rostelecom Cup leaving about -3.7 points on the table in +GOE and .6 in BV for his step sequence (he's gotten level 4 internationally before). Just add those points alone. And you're at 163.54. That would be above the 162+ Maxim Kovtun got in his 5th place FS.

On the SB list so far, that score would put him in #6 spot.

And that 163.54 does not take into account any additional GOE for those jumps where he received -GOE.

The current IJS rules just don't make the quad worth it if you're a skater like Jason that can rack up points elsewhere. That's a key distinction. Not everyone can get away with doing quadless program.

I'd imagine if the rules change (i.e. +GOE scale of value when higher for a quad or a quad combo got more points or something like that), that would put some urgency on getting the quad.

In addition, there has to be more guys who consistently do the quad AND everything else, i.e. get high marks for the rest of their jumps, get all the levels AND good PCS. I don't think we have that scenario... yet.

That said, I get why people might think Jason will take forever on his quad. Let's face it, he took forever to get the 3A. Nearly three full seasons.

And this WHOLE thing is playing out now in the same way as then, that I'm getting major deja vu.

In 2011, in Greensboro, he was the charming kid! He got a standing ovation in FS! He pulled up from 11th to 9th with a 7th place FS. Some asked, why didn't NBC show him on television?! Yeah he doesn't have a 3A, but he's has a lot of promise in the future. Sure his program didn't go viral like Riverdance (cause it wasn't on NBC,ha!) , but he generated that same excitement.

And then nearly a year later, he won the JGPF title and suddenly everyone got on him for not having a 3A. Jason was going to left in the dust if he didn't get the 3A RIGHT NOW or even if he didn't try it. Would he even be able to move up to seniors?! Jason's getting old (cause 16 going on 17 is old)!

Then when people pointed out why Jason managed to win (besides the external factors of his competitors), people countered by point out every single fault in his skating, whether actual or their own perception.

Anyway change "3A" to "Quad" and we have the comments we're seeing now.

That said I don't think it will take three seasons for him to get it. In the case of the 3A, much of those 3 years came during a major growth spurt (between 2010 and 2012 he grew something like 7 inches). So obviously Kori likely kept down the training of the 3A so he could readjust to do his other jumps.

He's stop growing for the most part, so we won't have a growth spurt. Plus, in general, he's better at toe jumps.

tl;dr: History is repeating and will likely keep doing so.

 

[TMC]

Here's the thing, he scored 159.24 at Rostelecom Cup leaving about -3.7 points on the table in +GOE and .6 in BV for his step sequence (he's gotten level 4 internationally before). Just add those points alone. And you're at 163.54. That would be above the 162+ Maxim Kovtun got in his 5th place FS.

On the SB list so far, that score would put him in #6 spot.

And that 163.54 does not take into account any additional GOE for those jumps where he received -GOE.

The current IJS rules just don't make the quad worth it if you're a skater like Jason that can rack up points elsewhere. That's a key distinction. Not everyone can get away with doing quadless program.

This is what really puzzles me.

All those people making a fuss over his lack of quad and saying he is not competitive or predicting that he'll cause the US lose spots at Worlds...I have to think that they haven't actually really thought this through or looked at the evidence.

Look, the numbers don't lie. With his personal best as it is now, he would have been between 5th and 6th at Worlds 2014, between 4th and 5th at Worlds 2013, and between 4th and 5th again at Worlds 2012. Add the points he lost on the singled axel, and he would have medalled in 2012 and 2013. These are international scores, mind you. So how is he not competitive? Sure, for him to medal would not be easy, but it's not like he's single-handedly going to lose the three spots.

And if he shouldn't represent the US at Worlds, who should? Where's the logic of the federation not supporting the guy who brought in the best results and is highest in the world ranking? If the guys with quads had been much more successful, if Jason was somewhere like 20th in WR and this championship win was a complete fluke, I could see why people would cry about the quad. But that's not the case.

I'm seriously not trying to be snarky or condescending, I just genuinely don't understand the logic. Would love it if somebody could explain it to me.

 

[Interspectator]

This is what really puzzles me.

All those people making a fuss over his lack of quad and saying he is not competitive or predicting that he'll cause the US lose spots at Worlds...I have to think that they haven't actually really thought this through or looked at the evidence.

Look, the numbers don't lie. With his personal best as it is now, he would have been between 5th and 6th at Worlds 2014, between 4th and 5th at Worlds 2013, and between 4th and 5th again at Worlds 2012. Add the points he lost on the singled axel, and he would have medalled in 2012 and 2013. These are international scores, mind you. So how is he not competitive? Sure, for him to medal would not be easy, but it's not like he's single-handedly going to lose the three spots.

And if he shouldn't represent the US at Worlds, who should? Where's the logic of the federation not supporting the guy who brought in the best results and is highest in the world ranking? If the guys with quads had been much more successful, if Jason was somewhere like 20th in WR and this championship win was a complete fluke, I could see why people would cry about the quad. But that's not the case.

I'm seriously not trying to be snarky or condescending, I just genuinely don't understand the logic. Would love it if somebody could explain it to me.

Here is another perspective on the Jason vs the Quad...
I haven't heard many people say he should be off the team or even that he would lose a spot. Most agree that he deserves a place on the team. Could the angst about his lack of a quadruple jump stem from folks wanting him to be a top contender?
Because that's the only thing he lacks right now. Jason's consistency plus a quad plus his National title would catapult him into medal contention at Worlds and other big international events. He wouldn't be a 'dark horse' but a favorite to win medals. Thus, the impatience of fans and onlookers for him to start trying the quad in competition.
Of course, Jason and his team will do what they do, no matter how much we agonize, but it's not out of dislike for the most part.

 

[jace93]

Look, the numbers don't lie. With his personal best as it is now, he would have been between 5th and 6th at Worlds 2014, between 4th and 5th at Worlds 2013, and between 4th and 5th again at Worlds 2012. Add the points he lost on the singled axel, and he would have medalled in 2012 and 2013. These are international scores, mind you. So how is he not competitive? Sure, for him to medal would not be easy, but it's not like he's single-handedly going to lose the three spot.

You also have to consider that there has been a g_ general inflation in the scores in the last two years (even Takahashi didn't get more then 85+ pcs in 2012) so it's difficult to simply compare PB between different years... anyway I agree with newbiespectator in that many that continously worry about the quad just want to see him competitve with the best... obviously some are just trying to diss him, but hopefully they're just a minority

 

[HanDomi]

From my perspective most of people who are talking about Jason and quad are talking about it because they want him to do great on international sene. Of course there are some that are arguing with results etc. But I am in first group. I would like him to have quad on some stage, BUT there is no said that he will be ever able to do it consistently in competition. I can count guys on fingers of my one hand ho can REALLY do great quads in competition.

 

[TMC]

Here is another perspective on the Jason vs the Quad...
I haven't heard many people say he should be off the team or even that he would lose a spot. Most agree that he deserves a place on the team. Could the angst about his lack of a quadruple jump stem from folks wanting him to be a top contender?
Because that's the only thing he lacks right now. Jason's consistency plus a quad plus his National title would catapult him into medal contention at Worlds and other big international events. He wouldn't be a 'dark horse' but a favorite to win medals. Thus, the impatience of fans and onlookers for him to start trying the quad in competition.
Of course, Jason and his team will do what they do, no matter how much we agonize, but it's not out of dislike for the most part.

Thank you, you make a good point. I hadn't even thought about it that way - I'm a very straightforward person myself and don't generally say one thing and mean another. For this reason I take what people say at face value and find it difficult to read between the lines. So when someone complains that Jason is not competitive, my first thought would not be that they are in fact looking after him more than berating him. But now that you said it, it does make more sense.

It's good to look at it from your point of view for a change

 

[TMC]

You also have to consider that there has been a g_ general inflation in the scores in the last two years (even Takahashi didn't get more then 85+ pcs in 2012) so it's difficult to simply compare PB between different years... anyway I agree with newbiespectator in that many that continously worry about the quad just want to see him competitve with the best... obviously some are just trying to diss him, but hopefully they're just a minority

Thank you, I hope you're right! It does seem like a lot of the twitter hate was a passing thing that came out of really wanting to reward Adam for his great skate and being disappointed that that was not to be. So the lack of quad was an easy weapon against Jason. It is really frustrating sometimes in this sport when either the short or the long is absolutely glorious and it feels unfair when that on its own doesn't always win.

 

[karne]

Thank you, I hope you're right! It does seem like a lot of the twitter hate was a passing thing that came out of really wanting to reward Adam for his great skate and being disappointed that that was not to be. So the lack of quad was an easy weapon against Jason. It is really frustrating sometimes in this sport when either the short or the long is absolutely glorious and it feels unfair when that on its own doesn't always win.

But that's not a logical response because Adam didn't land the quad either. If you want to get technical, he landed a 3-and-3-quarters Lutz in the short, and a three-and-a-half Lutz in the long. I mean, if Adam had landed the 4Lz cleanly I could understand some of the consternation. But he didn't. Josh turned out of his and then Zayaked. The only man on that podium with a clean quad was Max - and he did it in combination. But he needed to be squeaky clean and he wasn't - and I do wonder if squeaky clean would have been good enough.

Anyway, I'm glad Jason and his team are taking a conservative approach. Because if I had to choose between Jason getting a little flack now for not having the quad, and having three screws in his back at the age of 31....yeah, I'll take the flack, thanks.

 

[TMC]

But that's not a logical response because Adam didn't land the quad either. If you want to get technical, he landed a 3-and-3-quarters Lutz in the short, and a three-and-a-half Lutz in the long. I mean, if Adam had landed the 4Lz cleanly I could understand some of the consternation. But he didn't. Josh turned out of his and then Zayaked. The only man on that podium with a clean quad was Max - and he did it in combination. But he needed to be squeaky clean and he wasn't - and I do wonder if squeaky clean would have been good enough.

Anyway, I'm glad Jason and his team are taking a conservative approach. Because if I had to choose between Jason getting a little flack now for not having the quad, and having three screws in his back at the age of 31....yeah, I'll take the flack, thanks.

I completely agree with you - it's not logical but people do tend to follow their feelings more than their reason quite often. I'm just trying to understand why people say what they say. Sometimes people say stuff in the heat of the moment that they later regret.

 

[TontoK]

Here is another perspective on the Jason vs the Quad...
I haven't heard many people say he should be off the team or even that he would lose a spot. Most agree that he deserves a place on the team. Could the angst about his lack of a quadruple jump stem from folks wanting him to be a top contender?
Because that's the only thing he lacks right now. Jason's consistency plus a quad plus his National title would catapult him into medal contention at Worlds and other big international events. He wouldn't be a 'dark horse' but a favorite to win medals. Thus, the impatience of fans and onlookers for him to start trying the quad in competition.
Of course, Jason and his team will do what they do, no matter how much we agonize, but it's not out of dislike for the most part.

I would have thought that was obvious, but perhaps not. Thanks for bringing it to the forefront of the discussion.

I am a Jason fan. I want him to do well at home and internationally.

That does not mean I'm an Uber, meaning I feel that any criticism or constructive thoughts should be off limits, without starting a board war. We've all been there on GS in the recent past... and I don't want to go there again. It made rational discussion impossible.

It is true that I wasn't overwhelmed with Jason at Nationals. But, there's a reason I want him to have more mature programs, better costuming, improved TES. It's because he's a special skater, and I want medals to rain down on him.

It certainly doesn't make me a "hater" when I wish he'd advanced more this year.

 

[karne]

IBut, there's a reason I want him to have more mature programs, better costuming, improved TES. It's because he's a special skater, and I want medals to rain down on him..

:yes:

For the last two years, too, Kori and Jason have been saying they want to present him as a more mature skater. And yet somehow, they went backwards in this aspect this year. Between the one-note short program and the awful long program costume, he looked more juniorish than ever. In stark contrast, Josh looked mature, poised, and definitely a man, rather than a boy.

His packaging frustrates the heck out of me. He should not be difficult to package, and yet somehow he or his team keep getting it wrong. The Juke costume, for example, actually looked mature and excellent at Nebelhorn - before the crazy amounts of stones went on.

 

[TMC]

I would have thought that was obvious, but perhaps not. Thanks for bringing it to the forefront of the discussion.

I am a Jason fan. I want him to do well at home and internationally.

That does not mean I'm an Uber, meaning I feel that any criticism or constructive thoughts should be off limits, without starting a board war. We've all been there on GS in the recent past... and I don't want to go there again. It made rational discussion impossible.

It is true that I wasn't overwhelmed with Jason at Nationals. But, there's a reason I want him to have more mature programs, better costuming, improved TES. It's because he's a special skater, and I want medals to rain down on him.

It certainly doesn't make me a "hater" when I wish he'd advanced more this year.

Of course not. I feel the same way as you; I see that things can be improved and of course it can be talked about. I feel like the more I like a skater the more I pay attention to their mistakes and weak points. If I'm not invested in a skater I will not notice their mistakes half as often. But it's one thing to have a conversation and raise valid points, another thing to predict doom and gloom whilst ignoring the positive qualities.

My concern was not about rational conversation. Rather I was surprised to see many comments that were plain saying he didn't basically deserve to be on the podium even, let alone win, and I was wondering why that was. It's different to write, for instance, "I wish he'd get the quad already, then he'd be more competitive" than "that was weak, hope you enjoy your undeserved medal".

 

[Scovies]

Here is another perspective on the Jason vs the Quad...
I haven't heard many people say he should be off the team or even that he would lose a spot. Most agree that he deserves a place on the team. Could the angst about his lack of a quadruple jump stem from folks wanting him to be a top contender?
Because that's the only thing he lacks right now. Jason's consistency plus a quad plus his National title would catapult him into medal contention at Worlds and other big international events. He wouldn't be a 'dark horse' but a favorite to win medals. Thus, the impatience of fans and onlookers for him to start trying the quad in competition.
Of course, Jason and his team will do what they do, no matter how much we agonize, but it's not out of dislike for the most part.

That's pretty much it for me! I think Jason's strategy of not including the quad for Nationals was smart and defended him not putting it in his program if it wasn't consistent enough; I just figured if there was ever a competition where he could throw it in would be 4CC. I'd never suggest something like that for nationals or worlds.

 

[Mrs. P]

I guess my take is that your biggest worry is whether Jason Brown will get a quad, then I have to say you live a pretty charmed life.

In seriousness, I think if you at the programs at face value, yes you will be disappointed. I wouldn't blame you.

But if you look it at the lens of what he has done in the past both technically and artistically, I think there is more to appreciate. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be improvements, but there's a purpose to these programs in his development.

ETA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xAG9G_m_IM <--- This is from 2011 JGPF. You will will like this program way better. I do. It's my favorite SP of his even though he was still a junior internationally.

However, if you compare the that to this to his Nationals SP here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeVixnx5D5E) element by element, you can see that even with a similar layout (of course with a 3A instead of a 2A), the improvements. The jumps have more height and spring, he has a bit more power and even his spins and steps, always a solid element, has more complexity, stretch and difficulty.

I guess you could make an argument is maybe he should done something like his 2012 or 2013 programs with these technical improvements. But again, I still maintain, there was something he was to get out of doing those particular programs even if it's not apparent to us fans.

 

[TontoK]

:yes:

For the last two years, too, Kori and Jason have been saying they want to present him as a more mature skater. And yet somehow, they went backwards in this aspect this year. Between the one-note short program and the awful long program costume, he looked more juniorish than ever. In stark contrast, Josh looked mature, poised, and definitely a man, rather than a boy.

His packaging frustrates the heck out of me. He should not be difficult to package, and yet somehow he or his team keep getting it wrong. The Juke costume, for example, actually looked mature and excellent at Nebelhorn - before the crazy amounts of stones went on.

This year, I agree, they got it wrong. In my opinion.

I still believe that Kori and Rohene are the best coaching/choreo tandem for Jason. And here's where I'm going to ruffle some feathers...

Have either of them produced a National Champion/World Medalist Hopeful before? Maybe they just don't know yet quite how to put all the pieces together. I can't imagine a coach who has been there... Frank Carroll, for example... thinking red glittery suspenders would be a good idea.

And, to cut off a potential topic of discussion... I don't think that serious and somber are the only way to present a mature package. Different discipline, I know, but B/S Chaplin program is an excellent example of a playful, lighthearted program that in no way could be construed as juniorish.

Edit: spelling

 

[noskates]

You all are making some good points. But, other than the ridiculous costuming in the long program I thought they accomplished what they set out to do. While it maybe didn't have the emotional hook that Riverdance did, the choreography was more mature. Not sure why people didn't like the SP.

It seems to me overall that the packaging of some of our elite skaters is woefully missing the point.