State of U.S. Ladies' skating 2016-17

[Quelita]

Nagasu has skated very well the 2016 year, she has made decent money. Does anyone know if she has a sponsor???
I know her parents are not rich and don't make a lot of money and I don't think she is doing any ice shows. How does
she manage to pay her skating expenses or her parents pay all of it still even though she is 23? Is there a female
skater in the US team that is in US team in the C and Reserve group fortunate to have a sponsor already? How do
skaters get families to sponsor them? Thanks.

 

[brightphoton]

I don't think Karen is on the right track with doing her own choreography. It is serviceable but not exceptional. Tammy Gambill also seems like an almost but not quite choice of a coach. I like seeing Mariah taking a less complacent approach to her training situation, and I also think she has a better chance of conquering her nerves in competition.

I think Karen's choreography is fine. Just because you pay big bucks to a name-brand choreographer, it doesn't mean you get excellent choreography.

Case in point, the genius of famous choreographer David Wilson. 10 seconds of Mirai just skating around, arms hanging her side while setting up for a jump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFBlgMEN7rg&t=1m58s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFBlgMEN7rg&t=0m38s

 

[zanadude]

Mirai had nothing to lose so it's not surprising she skated better at 4CC than she did at Nationals.

What is that even supposed to mean!? It's one of the biggest ISU competitions of the season, of course she (and every other competitor) had something to lose.

 

[icellist]

so far, this season's top 12 scores

1 229.71 Evgenia MEDVEDEVA RUS ISU European Championships 2017 27.01.2017
2 218.33 Satoko MIYAHARA JPN ISU Grand Prix Final 2016/17 10.12.2016
3 216.47 Anna POGORILAYA RUS ISU Grand Prix Final 2016/17 10.12.2016
4 212.45 Kaetlyn OSMOND CAN ISU Grand Prix Final 2016/17 10.12.2016
5 210.52 Carolina KOSTNER ITA ISU European Championships 2017 27.01.2017
6 207.43 Alina ZAGITOVA RUS ISU Junior Grand Prix Final 2016/17 09.12.2016
7 205.90 Elena RADIONOVA RUS ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2016 19.11.2016
8 200.85 Mai MIHARA JPN ISU Four Continents Championships 2017 18.02.2017
9 200.35 Maria SOTSKOVA RUS ISU GP Trophee de France 2016 12.11.2016
10 196.91 Gabrielle DALEMAN CAN ISU Four Continents Championships 2017 18.02.2017
11 196.44 Ashley WAGNER USA ISU GP 2016 Progressive Skate America 22.10.2016
12 194.95 Mirai NAGASU USA ISU Four Continents Championships 2017 18.02.2017
13 194.57 Anastasiia GUBANOVA RUS ISU JGP Pokal d. Blauen Schwerter 2016 08.10.2016
14 194.48 Wakaba HIGUCHI JPN ISU GP Trophee de France 2016 12.11.2016
15 194.24 Rika KIHIRA JPN ISU JGP Ljubljana Cup 2016 24.09.2016
16 194.02 Polina TSURSKAYA RUS ISU JGP Tallinn Cup 2016 30.09.2016
17 192.57 Elizaveta TUKTAMYSHEVA RUS ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2016 19.11.2016
18 191.59 Mariah BELL USA ISU GP 2016 Progressive Skate America 22.10.2016

Taking out the juniors and those who are not going to worlds.

1 229.71 Evgenia MEDVEDEVA RUS ISU European Championships 2017 27.01.2017
2 218.33 Satoko MIYAHARA JPN ISU Grand Prix Final 2016/17 10.12.2016
3 216.47 Anna POGORILAYA RUS ISU Grand Prix Final 2016/17 10.12.2016
4 212.45 Kaetlyn OSMOND CAN ISU Grand Prix Final 2016/17 10.12.2016
5 210.52 Carolina KOSTNER ITA ISU European Championships 2017 27.01.2017


6|8 200.85 Mai MIHARA JPN ISU Four Continents Championships 2017 18.02.2017
7|9 200.35 Maria SOTSKOVA RUS ISU GP Trophee de France 2016 12.11.2016
8|10 196.91 Gabrielle DALEMAN CAN ISU Four Continents Championships 2017 18.02.2017
9|11 196.44 Ashley WAGNER USA ISU GP 2016 Progressive Skate America 22.10.2016
10|12 194.95 Mirai NAGASU USA ISU Four Continents Championships 2017 18.02.2017

11|14 194.48 Wakaba HIGUCHI JPN ISU GP Trophee de France 2016 12.11.2016



12|18 191.59 Mariah BELL USA ISU GP 2016 Progressive Skate America 22.10.2016

The US will be in the same state as the men's last season at Worlds, even if Mirai was on the team. Ashley would be the veteran who goes up in standing hopefully (Adam Rippon). Mirai would be Tom Z's skater (Max Aaron). Mariah would be the newbie at worlds that makes it in to the top 10 (Grant Hochstein)

What the US ladies can optimistically reach is what the Japanese ladies accomplished last season when Satoko placed 5th and Mao/Rika placed 7/8. But Kaetlyn and Carolina push everyone down a couple standings.

So to reiterate what most people have said in this thread. The US ladies probably don't deserve the 3 spots because the Russians, Japanese, and even Canadians deserve it more. Mirai was not named to the team which is unfortunate and USFSA should reconsider their new policy even further. But before we lose all hope, there's a chance if our ladies surprise.

Also, not everything goes to USFSA's plans. This season: Angela Wang was supposed to be at SkAm this season. Her foot injury withdrawal allowed Mariah Bell to get her GP silver. Ashley Wagner was supposed to be at 4CC instead of Mirai, and Mirai is once again the highest placing American lady. Karen also benefited last season by going to 4CC in Polina's place but didn't do herself any favors.

The most "shafted" berths in memory was Rachel Flatt not giving up her spot to Mirai back in 2011 (when they were both comparable at nationals and Tibiagate) and when Alissa had a hunch her hip wasn't right (Challenge Cup FS) in 2012 when Agnes and Caroline were bronze medalists at nationals and 4CC respectively.

This might be the most controversial berth discussion since 2009 when Rachel Flatt and Caroline Zhang were both doing well internationally and Alissa Czisny was national champion. This brought back memories when Caroline was the highest placing American at a more competitive 4CC with Yuna, Mao, and Joannie. Caroline was still left off the Worlds team like Mirai this year. It was probably the most controversial because it was the pre-Olympic Worlds too.

 

[venx]

I think Karen's choreography is fine. Just because you pay big bucks to a name-brand choreographer, it doesn't mean you get excellent choreography.

Case in point, the genius of famous choreographer David Wilson. 10 seconds of Mirai just skating around, arms hanging her side while setting up for a jump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFBlgMEN7rg&t=1m58s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFBlgMEN7rg&t=0m38s

Wait a minute, so this is a choreography coming from a guy who choreographed for Yuna Kim at Vancouver Olympics? :shocked:

 

[Krislite]

I think Karen's choreography is fine. Just because you pay big bucks to a name-brand choreographer, it doesn't mean you get excellent choreography.

Case in point, the genius of famous choreographer David Wilson. 10 seconds of Mirai just skating around, arms hanging her side while setting up for a jump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFBlgMEN7rg&t=1m58s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFBlgMEN7rg&t=0m38s

I'm more inclined to believe either Mirai just didn't bother to do choreography at that point in order to focus setting up for the jump, or her coach advised her to do so. David's done too many good programs with top skaters to put nothing there. I suppose it's also possible he watered down the program to account for Mirai's limitations.

 

[mrrice]

I'm more inclined to believe either Mirai just didn't bother to do choreography at that point in order to focus setting up for the jump, or her coach advised her to do so. David's done too many good programs with top skaters to put nothing there. I suppose it's also possible he watered down the program to account for Mirai's limitations.

I completely agree!!! There is a very good chance, especially with a coach like Tom, that he "Watered Down" David's Chorography to make it easier for Mirai to focus on jumping. I am happy that Mirai had a good ending to her season but, the team has been chosen and if the fed is smart, they're going to give Tammy a call and offer whatever assistance she needs to get Karen ready for Worlds. For some reason, I think Mariah Bell will be fine. There's nothing like having Nathan, Adam, and Ashley in your rink to provide a little motivation. Raf is going to be a busy Man at Worlds..

 

[jimini]

Case in point, the genius of famous choreographer David Wilson. 10 seconds of Mirai just skating around, arms hanging her side while setting up for a jump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFBlgMEN7rg&t=1m58s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFBlgMEN7rg&t=0m38s

When I watched that first part live, I honestly thought she had injured herself or had a boot issue or something. REALLY hope she has more interesting programs next year.

 

[Sydney Rose]

What is that even supposed to mean!? It's one of the biggest ISU competitions of the season, of course she (and every other competitor) had something to lose.

You did not quote my entire post. Compared to Karen and Mariah--who will be going to Worlds and so wanted to be seen in the best light possible at 4CC--this was the end of the road competitively for Mirai this season. Less of a pressure situation for her than for her team mates.

Or maybe not. Does it matter? I've been a fan of hers for many years but, for whatever reason, she just can't get it together when it counts--i.e., Nationals.

 

[zanadude]

You did not quote my entire post. Compared to Karen and Mariah--who will be going to Worlds and so wanted to be seen in the best light possible at 4CC--this was the end of the road competitively for Mirai this season. Less of a pressure situation for her than for her team mates.

And you apparently don't understand that the meaning of "nothing" doesn't change with context. Nothing is always nothing.

But getting back to your intended meaning, if anything Mirai had more to lose than the others. They have another chance to get back the points they lost out on at Worlds. This was Mirai's only shot.

 

[ice coverage]

Congratulations to Caroline Zhang, who has earned the SP TES minimum for Worlds

She is the third alternate for Worlds.

She placed third in the SP at Challenge Cup.

Good luck to Caroline for the FS on Sunday :yay:.

http://kunstrijden.knsb.nl/2016-2017/20170224/​

 

[chuckm]

Also note from the CHALLENGE CUP:

In JUNIOR LADIES, Emmy MA won the SP. The two CAN skaters GRAN and YIM are in 2nd and 3rd place respectively.

In NOVICE LADIES, Kaitlyn NGUYEN and Hannah HARRELL are in 1st and 2nd place, respectively, after the SP. CAN skater Emma BULAWKA is in 5th.

 

[skylark]

Case in point, the genius of famous choreographer David Wilson. 10 seconds of Mirai just skating around, arms hanging her side while setting up for a jump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFBlgMEN7rg&t=1m58s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFBlgMEN7rg&t=0m38s

Wait a minute, so this is a choreography coming from a guy who choreographed for Yuna Kim at Vancouver Olympics? :shocked:

Mirai left the choreography out, as Johnny Weir said. If you look at Mirai's earlier performances of this program, the choreography was more complex. While I don't necessarily keep track of the names of specific steps, moves, etc., I feel their absence. And in this case, Mirai's FS felt emotionally blank. Mirai/ her team made the decision to abandon choreography and emotion in order to focus on landing the jumps. It got her the 4cc bronze medal, but it isn't enough. The top ladies need to do better.

I don't like to see a magnificent choreographer like David Wilson spoken of like these two posts do. No choreographer can control the skater's performance: It's up to the skater to execute what he created and, ideally, make it his or her own. Stephane Lambiel said in TSL interview the same thing happened to his choreography for Liza T (and Mishin). "Well," he said, "they kept the music."

 

[skylark]

Agree about the choreo not being exceptionable (then again, the ladies in general this season have lackluster choreo...saving the good stuff for next year?) IMO, a national champion/actual world medal contender should be working with a top-tier choreographer. It lost Polina Edmunds the national title last season. Karen's programs are better than GWTW, but working with a top-tier choreographer is about more than the choreography - it seems like the best skaters in the world have learned a heck of a lot from their choreographers about carriage, movement, interpretation - those experts help a skater develop.

I agree completely; very well said! Ashley worked with Philip Mills every other day when she was coached by John Nicks. And she goes back to Shae-Lynne several times during the season to keep refreshing and reinforcing the work they've done together. The best set-up, in my opinion, is when the choreographer is right there, like David Wilson in Toronto with Orser, Rohene Ward with Kori. I'm sure those aren't the only examples, they're just two that I feel fairly sure of.

to segue OT, it bothers me that Jim Peterson doesn't send Tarah and Danny, at least, to a top-tier pairs choreographer like Julie Marcotte, or Lori Nichol. But then, they may be maxed out on the teams that they take on.

 

[musicfan80]

I've wondered why Christopher Dean wouldn't be a good person to work with Mirai or some of the U.S. pairs teams. I believe that he's in Colorado Springs and coaches some ice dance teams.

 

[ice coverage]

I've wondered why Christopher Dean wouldn't be a good person to work with Mirai or some of the U.S. pairs teams. I believe that he's in Colorado Springs and coaches some ice dance teams.

Christopher Dean has worked with Max and Sappenfield skaters in the past.
I don't think we can rule out the possibility that CD has worked with Mirai??

BTW, since relocating to the World Arena, Ben Agosto has been working with Mirai and Max and Team Sappenfield.

 

[KatGrace1925]

Mirai left the choreography out, as Johnny Weir said. If you look at Mirai's earlier performances of this program, the choreography was more complex. While I don't necessarily keep track of the names of specific steps, moves, etc., I feel their absence. And in this case, Mirai's FS felt emotionally blank. Mirai/ her team made the decision to abandon choreography and emotion in order to focus on landing the jumps. It got her the 4cc bronze medal, but it isn't enough. The top ladies need to do better.

Is this a trend in Tom Z's group? Max seems to do the same thing. As the season goes on the coreography disappears. That is absolutely no fault of the choreographer.

 

[Princessroja]

Another note from the Challenge Cup: Nguyen and Harrell came in 1st and 2nd respectively in novice ladies with 130 and 111 points; Emmy Ma won junior ladies with 148.73 points. Congratulations; what excellent debuts for all of them!

 

[chuckm]

Mirai left the choreography out, as Johnny Weir said. If you look at Mirai's earlier performances of this program, the choreography was more complex. While I don't necessarily keep track of the names of specific steps, moves, etc., I feel their absence. And in this case, Mirai's FS felt emotionally blank. Mirai/ her team made the decision to abandon choreography and emotion in order to focus on landing the jumps. It got her the 4cc bronze medal, but it isn't enough. The top ladies need to do better.

I don't like to see a magnificent choreographer like David Wilson spoken of like these two posts do. No choreographer can control the skater's performance: It's up to the skater to execute what he created and, ideally, make it his or her own. Stephane Lambiel said in TSL interview the same thing happened to his choreography for Liza T (and Mishin). "Well," he said, "they kept the music."

What earned Mirai the bronze medal at 4CC wouldn't help her at Worlds. Leaving out choreography and emotion means lower PCS scores than skaters who have choreography, express the music, and sell their programs, and there are a lot more skilled skaters at Worlds than there are at 4CC. This is why Mirai was 2nd at 4CC last year but 10th at Worlds.

At least Mariah and Karen do have choreo and do invest themselves emotionally in their programs.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I don't like to see a magnificent choreographer like David Wilson spoken of like these two posts do. No choreographer can control the skater's performance: It's up to the skater to execute what he created and, ideally, make it his or her own.

I can't imagine he enjoys watching Mirai's performances of his choreography. Mirai has much less spark than Yuna, and he thought Yuna lacked emotion when she came back (whereas I thought her 2013 Worlds LP was her best ever).