State of U.S. Ladies' skating 2016-17 | Page 89 | Golden Skate

State of U.S. Ladies' skating 2016-17

But to be fair, she's been through a few US Nationals already. This, in my opinion, can make or break your career for US ladies. In my opinion, I just think she was held behind by judges just because she didn't have her 2nd triple yet. Maybe had they given her a boost like they did for Karen, she would have tried harder. But I am aware others do not agree. At 2015 US Nationals, she did a triple triple in her short program, it looked rotated completely to me. Karen also did a triple triple, an easier one, but somehow she scored 64 something to Mariah's 57 something. A 15 year old to an 18 year old? You think judges could have waited longer to prop Karen up, considering she struggled with injuries and growth spurt afterwards. Mariah was 18 at the time, I'm just saying if they would have supported her earlier, she would have tried harder. But she ended up 10th place??? after the short program.

Why are you so convinced the judges "propped" Karen up? She had two beautiful skates at nationals 2015 among a ton lf dismal performances, she deserved that 3rd place finish. She had issues after the fact but that doesn't make her finish underserved. Mariah at 18 had some good qualities but there was no way I would have put her near that podium.
 
Why are you so convinced the judges "propped" Karen up? She had two beautiful skates at nationals 2015 among a ton lf dismal performances, she deserved that 3rd place finish. She had issues after the fact but that doesn't make her finish underserved. Mariah at 18 had some good qualities but there was no way I would have put her near that podium.

here are their skates....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhfQE6hAsY0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m65_6_RUkg0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfJmJZAeDgU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN_vZl68VD0&t=253s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9fRO0vEjac&t=250s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kowo4Gry4Wc

I know a lot disagree, but I would have put Mariah and Polina above Karen. Also, I'd like to correct myself by saying Karen had the easier triple triple, she didn't, but the toe jump was still under-rotated. Also, I'd like to correct myself, it looks like Mariah's 3toe jump was slightly under-rotated as well.
 
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Your point about 15 year olds jumping better than 17 year olds is fair enough, as well how reasonable it is that Karen wouldn't want to leave home.

One of the reasons the US can't keep up with Russia and Japan is its coaching geography. Changing coaches involves a big move geographically, whereas in Russia, all the coaches (please don't quote me and say "well so-and-so coach doesn't coach there!" I'm well-aware this is a generalization, there are exceptions, but my point still stands) are in Moscow or St. Petersburg. The US has some concentrations of top singles coaches in LA and Colorado Springs, but there are also coaches in Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, Detroit, and y'know, Canada. IMO, one of the main problems for US ladies is their consistency and their jump technique. When we end up with someone not a total headcase (Gracie), they end up having jump technique that needs adjustments that range from minor to major (Ashley, Mirai, Karen, Polina, Hannah Miller). If they moved to a better coach at a younger age, as juniors or even novices (see: Russia), the US ladies wouldn't be in a bad situation.


A very solid and accurate point. Coaching in figure skating, like everything else, is so important in the early years. I read an article in a skating magazine recently about a couple of coaches who say they get their students mostly from learn to skate programs which made me really think. I did a little research and they have some mid-to-high level skaters who have some serious skating issues. The coaches have lost many skaters over the years, but unfortunately, none of those skaters ever went on to reach their fullest potential, possibly because they were able to jump at lower levels, get the points, but as they advanced to the junior or senior levels, they just weren't able to compete with the other skaters who not only were able to do the jumps, but did them very well from set-up to landing. I think this is the result of the coaches only caring that the skater gets the jump, not caring about how they get it. GOE is everything at the Sr level as all of the top competitors can do the jumps, only the best can set them up perfectly, hold air position wonderfully and stick the landing with a beautiful transition. One will win by having the jumps at the lower level with mediocre skating, but at the higher levels those good jumps become a weakness, the overall skating is an anchor and the points will suffer.

I would think changing coaches is a big move and quite costly. But I would also think the problem then becomes that the new coach (hopefully better, hence the change) wants to improve some of the bad technique which may set the skater back a year or two. Unfortunately, this allows many to begin speculating that the change was a bad idea, the skater is no good, or the new coach just doesn't have the ability to help the new skater. IMO, it's quite the opposite, as long as the skater has the mental strength and desire to get better, making changes takes time but pays off in the long-run. This is what a good coach does - 1 step back, 2 steps forward. I've seen it many times, a recipe for success. However, if the athlete loses patience or confidence while undergoing this re-building period, all is lost. This is what happens more times than not (as with the skaters who left the coaches I referenced above) but all it means is that trying to be the best in any sport (especially an individual sport) is HARD, having the mental strength to perservere is HARD and having the maturity to understand change is sometimes needed is HARD.

Look at Orser, he has a full Team of coaches which affords him the luxury of farming out those skaters who need the most help. Many of his skaters only skate with him once or twice a week as he has "specialists" who are there to simply help make a part of the skater great. Orser then brings all of that together, manages the skaters time, strengthens their mental ability and puts out the final product. He is to figure skating what Ford was to the assembly line.
 
But to be fair, she's been through a few US Nationals already. This, in my opinion, can make or break your career for US ladies. In my opinion, I just think she was held behind by judges just because she didn't have her 2nd triple yet. Maybe had they given her a boost like they did for Karen, she would have tried harder. But I am aware others do not agree. At 2015 US Nationals, she did a triple triple in her short program, it looked rotated completely to me. Karen also did a triple triple, an easier one, but somehow she scored 64 something to Mariah's 57 something. A 15 year old to an 18 year old? You think judges could have waited longer to prop Karen up, considering she struggled with injuries and growth spurt afterwards. Mariah was 18 at the time, I'm just saying if they would have supported her earlier, she would have tried harder. But she ended up 10th place??? after the short program.



Sorry but it was th opposite. Mariah attempted an easier 3T+3T at 2015 nationals. Karen did a 3Lz+3T. The difference in their scores came from Karen's spins and foot work.

I don't believe that Karen was propped up. She just had better skates than Mariah at nationals. USFSA had no obligation to score Mariah higher because she was older. She hasn't medaled at any senior competition. It's like Rafael said, she needed to make herself into a great skater.
 
I think you have Mariah confused with another skater. Mariah had not accomplished hardly anything until this season. She only had only one JGP medal as an international medal. This year is the first time she's earned any medals from any senior competition. Last year she she placed 6th and 13th at her senior B competitions and 8th at SA. She's much better this year for sure. But she was definately not an accomplished skater.


I read this and was a little confused on what you consider an accomplished skater especially since you think she has "not accomplished hardly anything until this season" . I like Mariah, think she is a mid-level competitor but I think she is an accomplished skater.

She made it to Nationals every year starting with Intermed (8th), Nov (3rd), Jr (5th, 2nd), Sr (13th, 6th, 11th). She never repeated a year until her Jr year where she spent 2 years and then on to the Sr level.

The USFS has assigned her to almost a dozen international competitions including a couple of JGPs (with 1 medal) and a GP.

Certainly not a Yuna Kim, but still. Heck, if she were my daughter I'd be pretty proud of her accomplishments to this point and as a fan of skating, I'm looking forward to seeing what she might be able to achieve in the years to come.
 
Sorry but it was th opposite. Mariah attempted an easier 3T+3T at 2015 nationals. Karen did a 3Lz+3T. The difference in their scores came from Karen's spins and foot work.

I don't believe that Karen was propped up. She just had better skates than Mariah at nationals. USFSA had no obligation to score Mariah higher because she was older. She hasn't medaled at any senior competition. It's like Rafael said, she needed to make herself into a great skater.

yes, I corrected myself in my previous post, Karen had a harder jump combo, but she under-rotated that 3toe. Just overall, looking at all three of their skates, Karen/Polina/Mariah, short and long, I personally wouldn't have put Karen in 3rd.
 
Sorry but it was th opposite. Mariah attempted an easier 3T+3T at 2015 nationals. Karen did a 3Lz+3T. The difference in their scores came from Karen's spins and foot work.

I don't believe that Karen was propped up. She just had better skates than Mariah at nationals. USFSA had no obligation to score Mariah higher because she was older. She hasn't medaled at any senior competition. It's like Rafael said, she needed to make herself into a great skater.


I agree, I strongly believe Karen is a more well-rounded skater than Mariah. Karen tends to get higher levels on other elements despite mishaps in her jumps thus making her a competitor in most competitions. She just has to get back to fully rotated jumps with GOE+ and she will be right where she was a couple of years ago. Lets not forget, her broken ankle was her landing foot. Very difficult to come back from that so my hats off to her mental strength and desire to compete. I know of another younger skater who broke a bone and her jumps have never been the same, the fear is still in the mind creating hesitancy and self-doubt. I'm hoping this little one can get her mind strong and come back like Karen has, it's amazing what these kids can do!
 
I for one think coaches can obviously make a difference, but for the most part, once a strong figure skater reaches the Jr level she should already know how to do all of the jumps and therefore no longer needs to be coached, per se; rather, the coach needs to be able to manage the athlete, work with the athlete’s mental state and tweak things along the road to greatness. Most top level Jr and Sr lady skaters have the ability, the talent, the potential, the skill and the understanding of how to execute the jumps and footwork, but the real challenge comes with choreographing a great program to highlight the skaters

I actually really disagree with this. Coaching goes way beyond just teaching the skills (and even then there are always more things you can learn). Coaches help athletes peak, pace themselves, determine conditioning needs, drill consistency, and spot when bad habits work their way in to the skater's technique. They also can provide motivation, refine choreography and movement, and spot ways to better highlight a skater's strengths in a program. Coaches should help their athletes to be confident enough in their programs that they can basically due them in their sleep, be this by scheduling the right number of run-throughs, working choreographic segments leading up to jumps, or helping athletes visualize their program.

The idea that elite athletes are just fine on their own and simply need the motivation of the right surroundings is silly. Even individual sports don't work like that. If they did we would see a lot more people going without a coach.
 
I read this and was a little confused on what you consider an accomplished skater especially since you think she has "not accomplished hardly anything until this season" . I like Mariah, think she is a mid-level competitor but I think she is an accomplished skater.

She made it to Nationals every year starting with Intermed (8th), Nov (3rd), Jr (5th, 2nd), Sr (13th, 6th, 11th). She never repeated a year until her Jr year where she spent 2 years and then on to the Sr level.

The USFS has assigned her to almost a dozen international competitions including a couple of JGPs (with 1 medal) and a GP.

Certainly not a Yuna Kim, but still. Heck, if she were my daughter I'd be pretty proud of her accomplishments to this point and as a fan of skating, I'm looking forward to seeing what she might be able to achieve in the years to come.

I was mostly addressing this idea that USFSA should "support" Mariah" based on her accomplishments. Whiles she's made great progress as a individual skater, she's accomplished little to deserve that. There are only two skaters in the US that maybe getting support from USFSA, and that's Ashley and Gracie. And they've "earned" that by their world placements and all the Grand Prix medals. However I think this "support" skater crap is stupid and skaters should be judged on their performance and not on their past accomplishments anyway.


I consider an accomplished skater someone that at least medalled at international competitions like senior Bs like Angela Wang. Mariah is good skater in the US for sure, but she hadn't done anything at an international level. Which is critical when you want to earned spots in the world ranking and for GP slots.

That's what makes this year so significant. Rafael has really taken her skating to a new level. She's actually earned senior medals for the first time in three seasons! A coach change can make a huge difference in some skaters.
 
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It's ok to disagree. Good luck to all the girls at Nationals. I hope to see Mariah and Polina have the skate of their lives.
 
All this talk about great coaches (in CO,CA, etc) and skaters with potential (Ashley, Polina, Gracie, etc) reminds me of a conversation I had with an ISU Representative about the competitiveness of Ladies skating in the US, Russia and Japan. Yes, there are top coaches but lets not forget, until last year, there was also a drought for the US Ladies of about 10 years without a medal at worlds or the Olympics and this was the longest drought since 1924. I would think these same great coaches mentioned in earlier posts were coaching and had students during the last 10 years but unfortunately they themselves were unable to get the results that so many think they could now - I'm not sure if I understand this or not.
I for one think coaches can obviously make a difference, but for the most part, once a strong figure skater reaches the Jr level she should already know how to do all of the jumps and therefore no longer needs to be coached, per se; rather, the coach needs to be able to manage the athlete, work with the athlete’s mental state and tweak things along the road to greatness. Most top level Jr and Sr lady skaters have the ability, the talent, the potential, the skill and the understanding of how to execute the jumps and footwork, but the real challenge comes with choreographing a great program to highlight the skaters strengths and having the wherewithal to maximize points from start to finish and most importantly, it all rests with the skater who needs to have the mental strength to do it consistently (this is what is lacking in the US).
Alot has been said here about Karen and her current situation. Two years ago she was 3rd at Nationals, 2 years before that she was the Novice Champion and everyone thought she was wonderful. The in-between years she was riddled with injuries. Now, a lot of people are saying she should change coaches!? I think she should stay where she is as her coach is very good, the real question is whether Karen has the mental stamina and the individual fight to push thru her current short comings to get back to the top. Heck, if anything, Tyler fell off the map until she went back to Tammy and then did quite well at Nationals (“Return to Gambill helps Pierce regain confidence”). Was this because of the coach? Partly yes as Tammy is a great coach, but mostly because the skater was reenergized, found her passion and confidence and was able to skate to her potential.
A coach change generally reenergizes the athlete (the honey moon) but I do not think any other coach can coach Karen up to the next level. Tammy has done a great job and will continue to do so as long as Karen remains positive, open minded and pushes herself to be great. Gracie may be in the same situation Tyler was years ago, burnt out with the same coach and down on her luck. After years of coaching Gracie, there is nothing Frank can say that Gracie has not already heard. She probably does need a change, not a change to help her get better but a change to help her change her environment, help her regain that passion, fire and confidence that once lit her belly. To hear the same thing Frank told her but to be told it by another coach will simply sound different, IMO. Look at Mariah, her change to Raf was not so much a change or improvement of her skating as she was there a very short period of time. She was already an accomplished skater, though she too was looking for herself. The short period of time with Raf, IMO, built her confidence, lit the fire she had years ago, but again, as good as Raf is, he is unable to get blood from a rock. He can, however, use his experience and greatness, to help manage Mariah and build her confidence once again if she remains open minded. The same thing will apply to Vivian.


@skatelikewind1966 I have to disagree on some of your points. The 2010 women's event in Vancouver probably had some of the most outstanding performances in recent history.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uYQRDoEclo&t=905s

This is the final flight of the ladies in Vancouver It isn't that the US ladies did not deliver. Both Mirai and Rachael skated lights out. It was just that they were against some of the very best skaters in the world in decades, and even Kwan could not have competed and beat Yuna. People act as if Nagasu and Flatt did not skate/deliver in Vancouver. Quite the opposite.
 
I actually really disagree with this. Coaching goes way beyond just teaching the skills (and even then there are always more things you can learn). Coaches help athletes peak, pace themselves, determine conditioning needs, drill consistency, and spot when bad habits work their way in to the skater's technique. They also can provide motivation, refine choreography and movement, and spot ways to better highlight a skater's strengths in a program. Coaches should help their athletes to be confident enough in their programs that they can basically due them in their sleep, be this by scheduling the right number of run-throughs, working choreographic segments leading up to jumps, or helping athletes visualize their program.

The idea that elite athletes are just fine on their own and simply need the motivation of the right surroundings is silly. Even individual sports don't work like that. If they did we would see a lot more people going without a coach.

agree. Just look at what Raf has done for Ashley, who got a 3-3 late in her career!
 
Coaching goes way beyond just teaching the skills (and even then there are always more things you can learn). Coaches help athletes peak, pace themselves, determine conditioning needs, drill consistency, and spot when bad habits work their way in to the skater's technique. They also can provide motivation, refine choreography and movement, and spot ways to better highlight a skater's strengths in a program. Coaches should help their athletes to be confident enough in their programs that they can basically due them in their sleep, be this by scheduling the right number of run-throughs, working choreographic segments leading up to jumps, or helping athletes visualize their program.


I think you missed my point entirely, however, we are saying the same thing. All the activities you describe are ways in which a coach manages a higher level athlete. As tier 1 athletes grow and mature, their dependency on their coach for instructional guidance decreases and the coach who was once more of a teacher of skills slowly becomes a manager/mentor of the athletes time/mental state. If the coach cannot progress to this next level of "coaching", the athlete will not grow either which is why some athletes "outgrow" their coaches.
 
Thanks for sharing the article on Surya. It's always nice to hear about skaters after their competitive career. I like that Surya is busy as a coach. :thumbsup:

If there's one thing Surya had that most American women these days lack, it's performance ability.
 
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