Stellato-Dudek on FO death spiral

[gsk8]

The team was using their rare forward-outside death spiral last season and received a lot of negative feedback on the position. Here is a link from Skate America where they received a level two, but in France they got a level three.

Stellato-Dudek and Deschamps win Grand Prix Pairs' title in France

2022 Grand Prix de France – Pairs Deanna Stellato-Dudek and Maxime Deschamps of Canada won the Pair’s title at the 2022 Grand Prix de France on Saturday night in Angers. […]

www.goldenskate.com

“We tried to change it to where I’m not holding my leg anymore and kind of extending it,” said Stellato-Dudek. “So, we thought, ‘how can we think outside the box and go further with it and make it look more attractive?’ Max came up with the idea of using a forward pivot at the beginning. It was our intention of doing it at the beginning of the season, but then were told the last minute in Germany that they weren’t sure if it was legal or not. So we had to wait and make sure that it got passed.”

What are your thoughts?

 

[4everchan]

I love it. It suits the Cleopatra program very well. Why the negative feedback? It's a very difficult position to achieve and it is high scoring with a higher BV than sbs toes or sals... More teams should try to perfect it... but I doubt they will bother... Kudos to them, not only for pushing the envelope with the FODS but also in their lifts. There is enough cookie cutter content in the discipline, it's nice to see some teams showing individuality.

 

[ladyjane]

I like it too, especially combined with the forward pivot. It is very different and - indeed - @4everchan out of the box! I really like it that a couple doesn't focus on the hardest jumps but on the hardest death spirals!

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Speaking of forward outside death spirals here's a nice example from Efimova/Blommaert (Level 4 too!)
I wonder why so many pairs (e.g. Peng/Jin and Sui/Han last season) have to resort to holding their leg or having a really high bent position, when E/B's looks so nice. I guess it's harder than it looks...

 

[ladyjane]

Nice!

 

[purplecat]

I appreciate the originality but I am not too big a fan of forward outside death spirals. The Chinese pairs liked doing them too and I just find them to be awkward and often slow. Thank you @Flying Feijoa for that example from the German pair - that is much nicer and shows me they don't have to be awkward!

 

[4everchan]

Speaking of forward outside death spirals here's a nice example from Efimova/Blommaert (Level 4 too!)
I wonder why so many pairs (e.g. Peng/Jin and Sui/Han last season) have to resort to holding their leg or having a really high bent position, when E/B's looks so nice. I guess it's harder than it looks...

it is very hard. When watching the olympics on the French CBC stream, the analyst, former pair skater was quite critical of P/J's position... but then said that S/H's was better... At the same time, he did explain how difficult it was to achieve.

 

[RobinA]

Awkward and ugly in my book. To me the body position actually looks like a mistake. I'm fine with unusual moves, but don't put something in a program you can't carry off well. Hopefully it will improve by the end of the season.

 

[macy]

Awkward and ugly in my book. To me the body position actually looks like a mistake. I'm fine with unusual moves, but don't put something in a program you can't carry off well. Hopefully it will improve by the end of the season.

yeah i'm kinda with you on this one.

i'm all for creativity and setting yourself apart from the rest, but this ain't it for me. it doesn't create a nice line and is a bit ugly imo.

 

[chuckm]

Efimova/Blommaert's L4 spiral looked graceful, but SD/D's looked awkward and ugly--no surprise it got low levels. Why would a pair choose a move because it is different when they can't execute it well?

 

[gkelly]

Efimova/Blommaert's L4 spiral looked graceful, but SD/D's looked awkward and ugly--no surprise it got low levels. Why would a pair choose a move because it is different when they can't execute it well?

For the challenge?

For the higher base value, compared to death spirals with the same level on other edges?

For their own satisfaction, to try something different and creative?

In hopes that they will be rewarded for originality?

 

[el henry]

As always, I am an outlier.

I don't find the position particularly unattractive. I don't see where it is soooo terribly executed.

I hope they perfect it because I like seeing unusual spirals.

 

[ManyCairns]

As always, I am an outlier.

I don't find the position particularly unattractive. I don't see where it is soooo terribly executed.

I hope they perfect it because I like seeing unusual spirals.

I don't find it unattractive, either. Angular and in keeping with the program theme, yes. Like a hieroglyph.

 

[SubRosa]

Here is how the originators, the Protopopovs, performed the FO death spiral:



A little stuttery on Ludmilla's part as she is descending, but then a thing of beauty. I have wondered whether this pair were able to make this difficult move work because they are both so tall. Maybe there is some physics at work that makes this a difficult move for skaters of disparate heights to perform? I speculate that getting down into the FO death spiral is dicey because if the woman gets too far forward on her skating foot, she risks tripping on her toe pick. The woman has to be balanced very precisely throughout. (But, I have never done a death spiral of any kind, so am just speculating. )

If you back the video up to 4:20, you can watch a program that consists of nothing but death spirals! And exquisite skating, of course.

 

[NanaPat]

For the challenge?

For the higher base value, compared to death spirals with the same level on other edges?

For their own satisfaction, to try something different and creative?

In hopes that they will be rewarded for originality?

Also, they hope to achieve a higher GOE (and higer score overall) as they improve their execution of the move. It's fairly common for skaters to get lower scores on a difficult element (as opposed to what they could get doing a better version of an easier element) when they first add it to their programs. As they improve, the GOE goes up and the greater risk pays off.

 

[gkelly]

Here is how the originators, the Protopopovs, performed the FO death spiral:

Thanks for the video! I knew the Protopopovs had invented this death spiral, but I hadn't seen their version before.

Other earlyish examples:

Isabelle Brasseur-Lloyd Eisler LP 1993 World Figure Skating Championships

Isabelle Brasseur and Lloyd Eisler.

www.youtube.com

Xue Shen & Hongbo Zhao CHN - 1996 World Championships LP

SP : 18th, LP : 13th, 15th placeMarch 17th-24th, Edmonton, CAN

www.youtube.com

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I love it! I love when skaters do moves that seem like they are “hacking” the system.

Yeah the position isn’t classic but the originality gets mega props from me. Inside pivot on the death spiral is so cool.

Sometimes a team risks points by trying something new.

Stepanova/Bukin’s sit spin twizzles…

Sui/Han’s pairs combo spin with her low to the ice.

Artur’s 3Z+3F. Sonja’s 3S+2S.

That Russian team that did the cartwheel catch as part of their twist.

Love the originality.

 

[4everchan]

I guess i have been a long time fan of this death spiral.. since Brasseur and Eisler...

I guess Josée Picard, who coached B/E might have some "credits" in SD-D's FODS?



I see it was posted up there... from worlds... my example, from the Olympics a year later.

Apparently it was called the "life spiral" by the Protopopovs who invented it... and it hadn't been performed in 20 years when b/e did it.

Thanks @gkelly

 

[Anna K.]

Has FODS been the mandatory technical element of the season?

I think I remember something like this but it was long ago and I might be mistaking.

 

[gkelly]

Has FODS been the mandatory technical element of the season?

I think I remember something like this but it was long ago and I might be mistaking.

FODS has never been mandatory.

The short program requires a specific death spiral each year. This year it is backward inside.
In the years where backward outside was the required element, I think recently forward outside has also been listed as an alternative.

The free skate requires one death spiral, which must be different from the death spiral in the short program. So any of FiDS, BoDS, or FoDS would be an option.