Study in a Skating Popularity-Disparity Across Different Regions

[noskates]

Well, coming in slow to this thread which will no doubt be incendiary before the day is out!! I can't speak for other countries and won't even try. I've been following figure skating for more years than I care to admit ( yes there was indoor plumbing and electricity) and in my opinion the lack of interest in this country comes down to 2 points: we haven't had a gold medal winner in any discipline that had the charisma of some of our past stars; and, the lack of touring companys and skating shows and horrible TV coverage has had a direct effect. People in the US got to "know" figure skaters from around the world and got to see them in programs that were fun and beautiful and didn't have the onus of judging. Stars on Ice and World Figure Skating Champion tours were awesome and well-attended. Brian Boitano, Michelle Kwan, etc. were celebrities (as was Alexei Yagudin and Gordeeva and Grinkov, Kurt Browning, etc,) I think if you asked the average person on the street today who Ilia Malinin is they wouldn't have a clue. But 20 years ago if you asked who Michelle Kwan is you would get a positive answer. I don't think masculinity has a darn thing to do with the lack of popularity. Historically figure skating for men has been considered a "gay" sport. And sad to say, skaters like Adam Rippon and Johnny Weir have just cemented that belief in the average person. Popularity in this country comes down to lack of exposure - plain and simple!

Oh - and in my opinion, figure skating is an artistic sport!!!! The athletic ability that is involved in the simplest of moves is a testament to that!

 

[Andrina]

Well, coming in slow to this thread which will no doubt be incendiary before the day is out!! I can't speak for other countries and won't even try. I've been following figure skating for more years than I care to admit ( yes there was indoor plumbing and electricity) and in my opinion the lack of interest in this country comes down to 2 points: we haven't had a gold medal winner in any discipline that had the charisma of some of our past stars; and, the lack of touring companys and skating shows and horrible TV coverage has had a direct effect. People in the US got to "know" figure skaters from around the world and got to see them in programs that were fun and beautiful and didn't have the onus of judging. Stars on Ice and World Figure Skating Champion tours were awesome and well-attended. Brian Boitano, Michelle Kwan, etc. were celebrities (as was Alexei Yagudin and Gordeeva and Grinkov, Kurt Browning, etc,) I think if you asked the average person on the street today who Ilia Malinin is they wouldn't have a clue. But 20 years ago if you asked who Michelle Kwan is you would get a positive answer. I don't think masculinity has a darn thing to do with the lack of popularity. Historically figure skating for men has been considered a "gay" sport. And sad to say, skaters like Adam Rippon and Johnny Weir have just cemented that belief in the average person. Popularity in this country comes down to lack of exposure - plain and simple!

Oh - and in my opinion, figure skating is an artistic sport!!!! The athletic ability that is involved in the simplest of moves is a testament to that!

It is sad that Rippon and Weir made figure skating look "gay"?!

Most of the sports have almost no gay symbols. They convey a message of masculinity, sometimes toxic, and make young gay kids afraid of trying them. Or persevering in them.

Take any sport random coming out story and it will turn out to be a story about anxiety, doubts, and self-destruction. Again, because athletes don't have many examples to rely on. Even nowadays, some coaches/athletes allow themselves openly homophobic comments against competitors.

This is the world young gay atheltes live in. And if Rippon, Weir, Cizeron, and others helped to make this sport more "gay", I would give them a standing ovation.

 

[el henry]

It is sad that Rippon and Weir made figure skating look "gay"?!

Most of the sports have almost no gay symbols. They convey a message of masculinity, sometimes toxic, and make young gay kids afraid of trying them. Or persevering in them.

Take any sport random coming out story and it will turn out to be a story about anxiety, doubts, and self-destruction. Again, because athletes don't have many examples to rely on. Even nowadays, some coaches/athletes allow themselves openly homophobic comments against competitors.

This is the world young gay atheltes live in. And if Rippon, Weir, Cizeron, and others helped to make this sport more "gay", I would give them a standing ovation.

I don't want to speak for @noskates but I think this is an issue with the wording.

I don't believe that @noskates was trying to say that it is sad that figure skating is perceived as a "gay" sport. I happen to know that she and I share intense fandom for a certain out and proud US skater.

The issue is that among certain Neanderthals, perceived as "gay" is bad, and that won't change. Neanderthals are Neanderthals, they exist in all places and in all times. Marketing to the Neanderthals won't work, they don't care how many quad quint sextuplet jumps a skater lands, Johnny Weir and Adam Rippon stand in their way. In the past Toller Cranston. A bloody shame.

From my POV, if skating could only learn to successfully market the Jason Browns, the Kevin Aymoz's and all the beautiful *skaters* of today, whether or not they are gay, the way they did for Toller and John Curry, it could at least help.

And the Neanderthals can pound sand.

 

[noskates]

Thank you El. You incapsulated exactly what I was trying to say. I do not care one whit what a skater does off the ice as long as it isn't criminal. Their private lives are just that - private!!! My point was there is a perception "out there" that all male figure skaters are gay. This is not true. But that men such as Adam and Johnny propagate that opinion unfortunately. El is right - Neanderthal type people are steeped in prejudice and sometimes that's all they can see....and nothing is going to change that perception. To promote figure skating I think there has to be heroes - of every persuasion, where the persuasion doesn't matter! The beauty and the athleticism of the sport should be forefront. This isn't going to happen until figure skating in the US gets more exposure. I've been on this board for many years and anyone who has read my posts might think I'm old, out-of-touch, prejudiced for or against particular skaters, or whatever, but you will never find a homophobic comment in any of my posts. I just don't think that way. Hope that clears up any misconception.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

About conservative/liberal, I dont think thats true because like I said Russia is quite conservative but appreciates male skating way more than liberal Canada for example

See my point

or historically Russia (where attention is often placed on jump content and medal counts)

In recent years (the past decade since Plushenko retired), the Russian public hasn't been very appreciative of their men, because they haven't been dominating the podium like the girls were. They do have support from dedicated skating fans (and rightly so, some of them have very nice qualities as expected from a country with a long tradition of skating and ballet), but the general public has been conditioned to care mostly about winners. You'd know this if you followed Russian men's skating properly, but you've made it clear elsewhere that you aren't very interested in it (which, if you are actually Russian, illustrates my point).

In Canada, hockey is still far more widely accepted than figure skating for a boy. People's attitudes towards specific social issues like this don't necessarily correspond with their general political views. People who vote the same way don't necessarily agree with each other on finer details either (hence the term 'spectrum').

 

[Andrina]

Thank you El. You incapsulated exactly what I was trying to say. I do not care one whit what a skater does off the ice as long as it isn't criminal. Their private lives are just that - private!!! My point was there is a perception "out there" that all male figure skaters are gay. This is not true. But that men such as Adam and Johnny propagate that opinion unfortunately. El is right - Neanderthal type people are steeped in prejudice and sometimes that's all they can see....and nothing is going to change that perception. To promote figure skating I think there has to be heroes - of every persuasion, where the persuasion doesn't matter! The beauty and the athleticism of the sport should be forefront. This isn't going to happen until figure skating in the US gets more exposure. I've been on this board for many years and anyone who has read my posts might think I'm old, out-of-touch, prejudiced for or against particular skaters, or whatever, but you will never find a homophobic comment in any of my posts. I just don't think that way. Hope that clears up any misconception.

I am sorry if I poorly expressed myself. I didn't intend to say that your comment is homophobic, I was referring to well-recorded phrases of some athletes and coaches.

I understand your point and I guess that our disagreement stems from cultural differences. You say about the US (?) that "there is a perception "out there" that all male figure skaters are gay". I am from a small country in Europe and here the perception is radically different. We are a lot into winter sports, so a young boy who does figure skating is unlikely to be assumed to be gay. Just because there are so many young boys who try out skating, skiing, snowboarding, etc., that some of them eventually can end up doing it on a more regular and serious basis.

And here is where the problem starts: as there are not enough "gay icons" around, young gay skaters start thinking that this is a result of a survivor's bias - they believe that gay skaters can't succeed in this sport. Especially because they see it as one of the winter sports and they notice that in other winter sports like downhill or cross-country skiing, winners (and just normal contestants) are of a very masculin apperance. I once had a chat with a gay skater who told me "Gays don't jump quads. Look at Brown, for example. Or Aymoz. How many different quads can he jump?" Then he also named an Olympian who "couldn't even do a triple axel". And finished "So why should I be able to do them?" Isn't a horrifying mindset for a young skater? This is why I was advocating for more exposure of gay athletes. But again, the perception may differ depending on the country.

 

[Mathman]

I think that gay men have always been well represented in professions and avocations that have an artistic aspect. I don't know why, especially, but for instance I happen to know that in the Detroit market at least, there were a lot of gay men in the profession of designing displays for department store windows, back in the days whern there were department srores. Owning a florist's shop was another one.

So I think that the perception of figure skating as having an "artistic" side and the question of whether a lot of gay men are interested in taking up the sport are related.

Kurt Browning (straight) once gave a very perceptive interview on this subject. He said that he was unambiguously straight, but because he was in a sport where girls outnumbered boys 20 to 1, he was always in situations where he was the lone male hanging out with a rinkfull of girls, and that he picked up some "feminine" manerisms from them.

As for actual Neanderthals, historians actively research the topic of whether this or that important historical figure (Richard the Lionhearted, or Alexander the Great) was gay. I don't suppose there is any possibility of discovering what the actual Neanderthal societies thought about the matter. Neanderthals may be getting a bad rap.

 

[el henry]

.... And here is where the problem starts: as there are not enough "gay icons" around, young gay skaters start thinking that this is a result of a survivor's bias - they believe that gay skaters can't succeed in this sport. Especially because they see it as one of the winter sports and they notice that in other winter sports like downhill or cross-country skiing, winners (and just normal contestants) are of a very masculin apperance. I once had a chat with a gay skater who told me "Gays don't jump quads. Look at Brown, for example. Or Aymoz. How many different quads can he jump?" Then he also named an Olympian who "couldn't even do a triple axel". And finished "So why should I be able to do them?" Isn't a horrifying mindset for a young skater? This is why I was advocating for more exposure of gay athletes. But again, the perception may differ depending on the country.

I agree that is a sad mindset. I hope your young friend learns about Timothy Goebel, the "quad god" of his era. Tim is gay, although he was not out when he competed.

I agree that it would be wonderful if all skaters could feel free to be their true selves.

Whenever someone says "Well why did so and so need to come out? Who cares" to me, I say "So and so isn't coming out for me, the woman of a certain age married for decades to a man of a even higher age. He's coming out for boys and girls in the sport who need to see themselves in the sport. And so, bravo"

 

[Mathematician]

I have to admit that the title of this thread got my hopes up. A STUDY of the popularity of skating in various countries. Opinions and rehashes are fun, but largely data free.

The data is the popularity of the sport, and the data is also the points I originally numbered out which I gathered from the other discussion. Actually this is how you do market research, you study the opinions of the viewers and participants and debate on validity of different strategies. I did not only provide my own interpretation but also countering ones and then provided my own counter argument. That is actually market study. My point of the thread title is not that my post alone is an entire study but that this thread would be a study as a whole and I simply shared my own perspective after placing the points.

First, I have to ask whether you're looking at this from the point of view of viewership or the point of view of participation?

Viewership I suppose, that is where the money comes from to make the sport "alive".

Revive Western figure skating?

I genuinely can't understand who would claim that Western figure skating is dead... Ah wait, I can! There is actually one country...

Hey, I wish I had an answer for you but this thread actually was inspired not by me but by a discussion I saw started by our Western friends in another thread; I simply joined in later. They were discussing that commercially speaking, figure skating seemed to lack good marketing and especially towards the younger generation. They seem to market to current fans (older people) but this is not a long term option for our wonderful sport to stay alive. Young people seem to massively lack interest. This came from a debate on the ISU Awards, where we unanimously agreed it was a poor step towards garnering interesting (again, basically taking the red ocean approach). Im sure there are great athletes in the west, I think you should try not to be offended because actually I never referenced the skill and validity of your athletes, in fact I made that clear explicitly. Simply it is true that the viewer numbers are lacking compared to its past days and also compared to other nations today (more than one...), and the accessibility to the sport is very limited. I am acting on best interest because I actually live in Canada myself (though yes I am also Russian), I think acting like everything is going well with the western scene is just disrespectful to the proven potential of this sport.

Flying Feijoa said:
or historically Russia (where attention is often placed on jump content and medal counts)

In recent years (the past decade since Plushenko retired), the Russian public hasn't been very appreciative of their men, because they haven't been dominating the podium like the girls were. They do have support from dedicated skating fans (and rightly so, some of them have very nice qualities as expected from a country with a long tradition of skating and ballet), but the general public has been conditioned to care mostly about winners. You'd know this if you followed Russian men's skating properly, but you've made it clear elsewhere that you aren't very interested in it (which, if you are actually Russian, illustrates my point).

In Canada, hockey is still far more widely accepted than figure skating for a boy. People's attitudes towards specific social issues like this don't necessarily correspond with their general political views. People who vote the same way don't necessarily agree with each other on finer details either (hence the term 'spectrum').

Hm, I appreciate your clarifications. But heres the obvious situation: Russia cared for Plushenko when he was a winner, but USA doesnt care for Chen while he is a winner and world record holder; would you agree then there must be another factor at play? Why or why not?

I dont really agree that Russians care more about jump content than other factors, if that is what you were implying. I provided this evidence (although anecdotal) in the OP, as I mentioned Westerners tended to take the purely athletic disposition towards skating while other countries with more thriving communities took a more artistic one. If I misunderstood let me know, maybe you are talking about men specifically in this regard? In which case, maybe you could be correct, but I dont think then that the western disposition is any less purely athletic towards men, in which case there again seems to be an extra factor needed to consider.

You are correct I dont actually watch the male tournaments themselves, but I do participate in many Russian communities where it is clear to me that there is little love lost for the male athletes. Of course they are not as popular as the ladies, but this isnt saying much because the ladies are likely the most popular in the world.

 

[TallyT]

we haven't had a gold medal winner in any discipline that had the charisma of some of our past stars;

Ouch. The pr department of USFS would not be happy with you

and, the lack of touring companys and skating shows and horrible TV coverage has had a direct effect. People in the US got to "know" figure skaters from around the world and got to see them in programs that were fun and beautiful and didn't have the onus of judging. Stars on Ice and World Figure Skating Champion tours were awesome and well-attended. Brian Boitano, Michelle Kwan, etc. were celebrities (as was Alexei Yagudin and Gordeeva and Grinkov, Kurt Browning, etc,)

But shows have to make a profit, after all, and I note that the 2024 US Stars on Ice has been cancelled, and the last few years the audiences have been pretty small, I believe smaller than Disney on Ice which has no name stars but does have ice princesses aplenty I guess.

And to be blunt, were they to put out those same shows, with Michelle and Brian etc at their peak, I doubt it would fly today anyway. SoI even in Canada and Japan and its ilk may have to seriously evolve from just, well, stars on the ice doing their star turns. That's already happening in Japan with Shoma et al in One Piece, with Takahashi's just-finished smaller series of what seemed to be art pieces, and of course with Yuzu's shows with their worldwide appeal. (I can't speak for Russia, I don't watch them.) That is if SoI does come back at all...

Of course they are not as popular as the ladies, but this isnt saying much because the ladies are likely the most popular in the world.

You mean among the currently competitive and female only skaters? Because really, only the remnants of the 3A and Valieva could be argued to be even that... and you cannot seriously mean skaters generally

 

[gkelly]

The data is the popularity of the sport,

Do you have hard numbers to support how popular the sport is or is not in different parts of the world?

Viewership I suppose, that is where the money comes from to make the sport "alive".

Viewership is what makes the sport seem alive to the viewers.

In my part of the US, the sport is flourishing quite well thank you at the grassroots level.

My club has some national competitors, even some international. Most of the local participants will never advance beyond the grassroots level. Many of them will watch their elite-level clubmates compete; others are more interesting in doing than in watching. For most of those skaters, what happens on the local ice in their own bodies or a few feet away feels more "alive" than what happens on TV or computer screen.

They are all part of what keeps the local skating community thriving. Except for the very very top few, these skaters are all paying their own way.

So when you're talking about the health of the sport as a commodity for spectators, and ignoring what actually happens in local rinks, please specify the limitations of your discussion.

Does figure skating exist as a grassroots recreational activity in Russia or elsewhere? Or is it all about creating international stars, and those who don't, or no longer, seem to have that potential are booted out, even if they have their own money to pay for training?

 

[TallyT]

Do you have hard numbers to support how popular the sport is or is not in different parts of the world?


Viewership is what makes the sport seem alive to the viewers.

In my part of the US, the sport is flourishing quite well thank you at the grassroots level.

My club has some national competitors, even some international. Most of the local participants will never advance beyond the grassroots level. Many of them will watch their elite-level clubmates compete; others are more interesting in doing than in watching. For most of those skaters, what happens on the local ice in their own bodies or a few feet away feels more "alive" than what happens on TV or computer screen.

They are all part of what keeps the local skating community thriving. Except for the very very top few, these skaters are all paying their own way.

So when you're talking about the health of the sport as a commodity for spectators, and ignoring what actually happens in local rinks, please specify the limitations of your discussion.

Does figure skating exist as a grassroots recreational activity in Russia or elsewhere? Or is it all about creating international stars, and those who don't, or no longer, seem to have that potential are booted out, even if they have their own money to pay for training?

From what you say, it appears that in the US figure skating may be increasingly being seen as less of a sport (especially a spectator sport) and more of a recreation. Nothing wrong with that actually, there are heaps of healthy and happy recreational activities.

 

[Mathman]

The data is the popularity of the sport, and the data is also the points I originally numbered out which I gathered from the other discussion.

Well, I have no wish to discourage discussion of these points. I will just mention that on the TV show Star Trek: The Next Gereration, the good robot "Data" had an evil twin whose name was "Lore." (In fact, I have always been grateful to this show for teaching American children the correct pronunciation of this word DAY-tuh. Starting with military lingo in World War II, three gnerations of Americans were walking arounnd saying "datta.")

Anyway, thanks for an interesting thread. Carry on.

 

[el henry]

Well, I have no wish to discourage discussion of these points. I will just mention that on the TV show Star Trek: The Next Gereration, the good robot "Data" had an evil twin whose name was "Lore." (In fact, I have always been grateful to this show for teaching A,merican children the correct pronunciation of this word DAY-tuh. Starting with military lingo in World War II, three gnerations of Americans were walking arounnd saying "datta.")

Anyway, thanks for an interesting thread. Carry on.

I didn't make the Data - Lore connection until you mentioned it now.

 

[Mathman]

From what you say, it appears that in the US figure skating may be increasingly being seen as less of a sport (especially a spectator sport) and more of a recreation. Nothing wrong with that actually, there are heaps of healthy and happy recreational activities.

To me, all sports fall into the economic category "Recreation and Entertainment." If you do it for yourself, for instance for exercise and socialalizing, that's recreation. If you pay money to watch other people do it really well, that's entertainment.

I think that gkelly's most important point was that the two go togetrher, and the recreational aspect is often shunted aside in questions about the "popularity" of the sport.

 

[Minz]

I think that gkelly's most important point was that the two go togetrher, and the recreational aspect is often shunted aside in questions about th "popularity" of the sport.

The problem is that I think it's very difficult to fix the recreational aspect. Ice rinks are expensive, and you need the right environment for a rink. Everyone needs their own pair of skates, etc, etc.

Compare that to a sport like soccer, where you can literally just have a ball and pretty much any open space and play with a bunch of people.

 

[Jeanie19]

The problem is that I think it's very difficult to fix the recreational aspect. Ice rinks are expensive, and you need the right environment for a rink. Everyone needs their own pair of skates, etc, etc.

Compare that to a sport like soccer, where you can literally just have a ball and pretty much any open space and play with a bunch of people.

And for young people, you can get scholarships at college for track, soccer, but not figure skating.

 

[SmallAminal]

My 2 cents for what its worth (from the perspective of someone sitting in Canada:
- I get the sense (from attending competitions) that there are less kids in the sport. I'm sure finances and the pandemic had a lot to do with it. Lots of kids quit after they couldn't access the ice for a long time and/or their parents coudn't afford to keep them skating. It is expensive and there is not a lot of support for you sub-elite athlete here. Perhaps other countries made it through with less attrition.
-It was heartbreaking to see almost no spectators at Nationals this year (and no broadcast of the competition). A few months before lockdown in 2020 we had attended nationals and it was packed. I think without national "treatment" (broadcasting), the sport will continue to decline in Canada.

 

[Mathman]

The problem is that I think it's very difficult to fix the recreational aspect. Ice rinks are expensive, and you need the right environment for a rink. Everyone needs their own pair of skates, etc, etc.

Compare that to a sport like soccer, where you can literally just have a ball and pretty much any open space and play with a bunch of people.

I agree, but I think that it is equally difficult to fix the entertainment aspect. True, it is the job of clever marketing stratigests to think of ways to make people think that they like, want or need something that they don't like, don't want and don't need, so we'll have to see how it all works out.

The thing about the soccer ball is very relevant, though. A hundred years ago baseball used to be "America's sport," and it is still quite popular and lucrative (Major League Baseball in the U.S. is worth 70 billion dollars, with the New York Yankees -- one single team -- woth 7 billion.) Historically this was supported by 50 million country kids who staked out a diamond in a corn field and batted a ball around. Every small town had an amateur team that would take on the toiuring "pros" If the local team couldn't field enough players, the barnstorming professionals would loan them a few to filll out their roster.

And by another 50 milllion city kids who grew up on "stickball" -- that's when you steal a broom from a neighbor, wedge it in a sewer grate to break off the handle, then buy a rubber ball for ten cents at the 5 and dime (or steal one for free).

A hundred years ago lots of kids skated on their own at the frozen pond in their back yards or at a nearby natural lake. Many children were pleased as punch to get a cheap pair of ice skates for Chistmas and away they went. Well, there aren't any frozen ponds any more, lakes don't freeze over like they used to, and here we are.

I, for one, am not dismayed. Different times, different customs. Niche sport? OK. I'm not complaining, nor do I have any particular desire to proselytize and convert other people.

 

[Mathematician]

Do you have hard numbers to support how popular the sport is or is not in different parts of the world?


Viewership is what makes the sport seem alive to the viewers.

In my part of the US, the sport is flourishing quite well thank you at the grassroots level.

My club has some national competitors, even some international. Most of the local participants will never advance beyond the grassroots level. Many of them will watch their elite-level clubmates compete; others are more interesting in doing than in watching. For most of those skaters, what happens on the local ice in their own bodies or a few feet away feels more "alive" than what happens on TV or computer screen.

They are all part of what keeps the local skating community thriving. Except for the very very top few, these skaters are all paying their own way.

So when you're talking about the health of the sport as a commodity for spectators, and ignoring what actually happens in local rinks, please specify the limitations of your discussion.

Does figure skating exist as a grassroots recreational activity in Russia or elsewhere? Or is it all about creating international stars, and those who don't, or no longer, seem to have that potential are booted out, even if they have their own money to pay for training?

Again I was not the one who started the discussion but only joined later, so I am not choosing criteria to fit my own agenda. People were interested in why the sport has lost viewership and commercial success and began discussing ways to fix this. If you are someone specifically interested in the micro community aspect and not the commercial aspect then, according to you, there is nothing to worry about and all is well with your scene, in which case you may rest easy. But otherwise it feels like you're playing semantics, "what do you mean by? etc..." For example, I can ask what do you mean by "hard numbers"? Tickets sold, add conversion rates, stream viewers, unique visitors, discussion activities... The sport is so commercially small you cant even find statistics on these events, but as someone else pointed out you can open your stream and see the arena isnt even full for a final event, and replays rarely crack 6 figure views (sometimes even struggling low in the 5 figures), which is evidence enough to those who are looking to assess and not argue considering skating used to blast this standard. Anyways it just doesnt seem like were talking about the same thing at all and I dont think its a communication issue because everyone else seems to have understood (and also based on the fact I didnt even come up with the topic and nobody had any trouble in the other thread either).

Anyways, to soothe the semantics here, I can specify the discussion to "commercially thriving". Hopefully we can all be glad now.