Teenage Ladies Olympic Champions

[Crizzy]

Mathman, ofcourse, judges are only human and can be swayed by emotions from the audience. However to say that past champions won based solely on this which I believed what millie was implying is not completely accurate. Yes, sometimes the home crowd might be a tad persuasive . Yes, fans can show loud applause for their favorite skaters but it doesn't mean that their favorites' win is already a given due to these factors. Ex: SLC pairs, S&P had a huge following being a Canadian skater in North American soil. After their program the crowd was just ecstatic but we know whom the original gold went to. This is also in response to millie's post, how do we know that CoP will not upgrade the points for home crowd favoritism?


Mzheng, I too am waiting to see more what the new up and comers have to offer instead of basing it on a one or two performances.

 

[OwenEvans]

After reading this, I just have to come out of lurkdom....

But I will not acuse Michelle and Irina couldn't handle the pressure as well as Sarah. At SLC the degree of pressure was totally different for MK, IS as was for Sarah. On the other hand the three of them leaving the Olympics eligible skating imediately after the OGM (except Sarah, but she diddn't live up to her expectation in her returning 2003 season either) just proved that they can't handle the pressure come with the public expectation of an OGM. They were afraid to lost to the same competetors they against in their Olympics win.

mhzeng, I always enjoy reading your posts and I don't want to cyber-fight over this, but I think the statement in bold above is a little harsh. Perhaps there is a slight element of truth to what you claim, however, I think it would be fair to remember that Oksana Baiul was a 16 year old orphan, living on the charity of her coach/adopted mother figure. At the 940s, she was being touted as the new Sonia Henie (especially by the US media, which even sacrificed Nancy Kerrigan over her) and due to the huge and new general interest in FS following "the whack", she was guaranteed $$$ x millions to turn pro. Now, I can tell you that if I were 16, no family, no money and everyone in my young ear going "take the easy road - no more eligible restrictions, easy skating and $$$ etc", I would be signing that contract in a minute.

Now, whatever anyone thinks of Tara Lipinski, I don't think anyone could deny she was a competitor par excellence. However, IMO only, I really think Tara always planned to go pro if she won the Os, especially as she knew her hip was going and her jumps with it - again, a case of take the money and run.

Sarah is an interesting case in that she has no baggage. She always seemed to me to be a really well-grounded kid and I thought she was a great competitor who showed us nerves of steel enough times to often outperform other skaters with better skills or more natural talent. 'Lo and behold, she then benefits from others not handling pressure to achieve, IMO, the most unexected (and again, IMO, most resented/disparaged by a lot of people) OGM in skating history (I say this, because IMO, I don't care if Sarah landed half a dozen 3x3 combo's in her SLC freeskate, she would not have won if either Michelle or Irina had skated even half-way better) and then really struggles for motivation after before quitting and going to school, which was always a stated intention of hers. Now she is coming back to skating it seems, but show-skating only.

I think it may be a case these girls don't want to put themselves thru the rigours of eligible competitve skating more than anything else, especially after an OGM. I mean, as an example, I can't remember anyone criticising Kristi (not I either as she's ) for not staying on until 94 and I remember Peggy asking Debbie in the K&C after her freeskate in Calgary if she would stay in until Albertville to be answered with an immediate and emphatic "no way!".

Also, I think it should be remembered these girls are just that - kids of 15, 16 who are either having decisions made for them or at the very least, making decisions influenced by their parents/guardians and/or managers/coaches/agents and, IMO, it is very unfair to claim their respective decisions to leave eligible skating as simply being unable to handle the pressure of competing and possibly losing.

However to just slightly change the syntax of your statement mzheng, (and it really pains me to think it, because I think she is just great), the one person who just proved that they can't handle the pressure come with the public expectation of winning an OGM is Michelle Kwan, and twice at that unfortunately....

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It's depend how serious Sasha's injury is. If she can not compete at Nationals this year, it's very likely that one of the American girls Joesitz mentioned win the silver. And then she will compete at worlds and might get a 4th or 5th. People just like a young fresh face, and when they see her, all the technical and artistry requirement they want from a mature lady are forgotten. By 2006 Olympic, if all the ladies fall a couple of times, this young girl will win the gold.

Exactly. The Sport has always favored the little girls in figure skating and it expects every Oly to be in the vane of Sonia Henie, Actually in one of my threads back in 1999, I wrote (mostly in jest) that Sarah would win the Olys because she was the right age. Looking back on that, maybe it wasn't 'mostly'.

We have an interesting field coming up for this Olys. Many of them are in their twenties. Many of the many are first rate skaters with a lot natural emotional talents now, and not just the mimicking talents of the youngsters. I'm looking forward to a 20plus female skater to win the Olys but in a year and a half, I can see Phaneuf winning because of the 'pressures' that abound at the Olys. I actually like Rochette better than Phaneuf but I think she is a few years older.

As for the usual suspects: Michelle will not have the same pressure she had in SLC. This will be her 'swan song' and you can bet she's going to skate a beautiful farwell not necessarily a winning farewell. Sasha won't go in expecting to be another Tara. Her extensions will wow the crowds but her jumps will be not bad but not exciting. Irina if she is up to it, will go for the glamor of it since there is no expectation of a win for her. Among these three I see only Sasha with a case of the nerves. This will be her second. MK and IS have already been through that.

The rise of the Japanese Ladies has indeed produced a winner. I think this will be Shizuka's second Oly and that may make her more nervous than she would like. The other Japanese ladies have so much potential but none, at least for me, have shown solid skating in their programs. Except for Shizuka, one of them will win only if others really melt down.

There are other female skaters out there, Susanna, Julia, Carolina, Joannie who have enough winning talent. If they skate clean and the top tier melts there is a chance for one of them.

If all of the above skate their best, what a wonderful world it will be.

Owen - Much of what you say is quite true. However, I think there are different kinds of pressure, or for a better word: nerves. There is 'stage fright', the worst kind of nerves. The skater's 4.5 minute program seems like 4.5 hours to him.
There is also the 'this is my last chance' , a bad one. It got MK and IS last time out and Sasha and Shizuka may well be experiencing this one in 2006. There is also the 'I am in the Olympics. Isn't it wonderful'. This was Tara's theme and although I do not like her skating she did put on a good show. Then there is the 'what am I doing here? I'm working to win the 2010'. Maybe that teenager will win the 2006 Olys. Who is she?

Let's get some more information at Worlds, next year's GPs, Nats and then......?

Joe

 

[ritymeez]

I thought that Irina isn't going to skate in the next Olympics. I thought she is only going to stay for Worlds, which is held in Russia.

 

[Kuchana]

I don't know why everyone is objecting about Sarah Hughes winning the olympic gold. Yes, she was young and yes, she didn't have that much experience but that really doesn't matter in a competition like the Olympics. Experience really has nothing to do with it. What it all comes down to is pressure. It was obvious that Sarah had the least amount of pressure on her. She saw the door open and she walked right through it. Michelle Kwan was obviously pressured big time because everyone was expecting her to win gold. Same goes with Irina Slutskaya.

So what it alll comes down to is pressure, who can handle it and who can't.

I'm arguing that just because you won the OGM, it doesn't automatically make you a legend by any means of the word nor am I objecting to Sarah's win but it disturbs me that during the Olympics, especially people who are not familiar with ice-skating, presume that because you win the gold, you're the best of all time. Plus it's quite telling that these "young" skaters run with the gold after they achieve it. That's another problem I have.

True Sarah was the "best" of that night but as far as the standard of her skating in comparison to Michelle's and Irina's; absolutely no contest.

 

[Kuchana]

Are Kimmie Meissner, Katy Taylor, Alissa Czisney, the Asado girls, Cynthia Phaneuf, all who are teenagers, in a better position to win OGM as these threads seem to be saying?

Are the over 20 skters too old to have the high technical content of program?

Joe

In regards to the over 20 skaters, no. Take Shiz for one.

 

[Kuchana]

Yes, pressure is a BIG factor. And most of the time the pressure is what skater put on themselves by desiring to meet public expectation. The younger, the less established skater the less the pressure they have. That explained these three teens winning.

But I will not acuse Michelle and Irina couldn't handle the pressure as well as Sarah. At SLC the degree of pressure was totally different for MK, IS as was for Sarah. On the other hand the three of them leaving the Olympics eligible skating imediately after the OGM (except Sarah, but she diddn't live up to her expectation in her returning 2003 season either) just proved that they can't handle the pressure come with the public expectation of an OGM. They were afraid to lost to the same competetors they against in their Olympics win.

This is another reason I would like to see a mature skater, not only mature in skating and also matured in psycho respect. Look at Michelle and Irina, at this stage of their career they are still competing in a sport where younger skaters were most favorated. They are not afraid to lose to the younger skaters.

Good points mzheng.

 

[jesslily]

Only two teenagers won the OMG and after touring professionally left the skating community. They have the freedom to choose what they really love to do. Tara pursues acting, even for years she hasn't landed a major role as Sonia Hennins did, I guess that era has long gone, but it seems she loves it. Sarah planned to get her college education which is also very important. Many skaters are from families that both parents have college or even higher education. After competitive skating is done, they want their kids get solid college education. Not evey body wants to put college on hold for skating, and not every body plans the skating as the only career she/he wants to pursues.
On the other hand, eligible skating does not provide comfortable income for most elite skaters, only very few can make living out of it, such as Michelle, Sasha, and Michael Weiss.

 

[Vash01]

Don't count out Cynthia Phaneuf at the World's. Under the new judging system, now the skaters will be judged on their skating not the screaming fans.standing ovations and favourtism. Out with the 6.0's and in with true judging of the skaters. Now when the skaters go out on the ice, they will be judged on how they skate not who they are. Enjoy the skating.

You mean there were no "screaming fans, standing ovations and favoritism" at Skate Canada? Judges do have their biases, their favorites, and the COP has no way of preventing it. The judges CAN, DO, and WILL manipulate the components score to place who they like higher.

Vash

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Judges do have their biases, their favorites, and the COP has no way of preventing it. The judges CAN, DO, and WILL manipulate the components score to place who they like higher.Vash

Bravo!, Vash

We all love the theory of the CoP but we have to agree with you.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

In regards to the over 20 skaters, no. Take Shiz for one.

I take it you believe the Oly winner does not have to be a teenybopper. Am I correct? That will go against the norm if a skater over 20, wins unless the skater is defending a title.
Joe

 

[euterpe]

Agreed, Vash. Phaneuf fell twice in her FS at Skate Canada, but she got Performance/Execution scores of 7, 7.25, 7.5, and as high as 8.25! According to the CoP guidelines, a score of 8 denotes "Very Good", 7 is "Good" and 6 is "Above Average". And 8.25 denotes more than "Very Good", almost reaching "Outstanding".

How can a program with two falls be rated "Very Good" or even "Good"?

Remember, these Program Component scores are NOT intended to be a comparison of one skater to another, but to rate the skater OBJECTIVELY on what the skater has done.

Cynthia may have skated better than the others, but she did not perform at the level the judges' scores suggest. In fact, on the individual elements, those same judges gave Phaneuf very few GOEs of 1 or higher, because her spins, spirals and footwork were OK but not exceptional. Yet 5 of the judges rated her Skating Skills from 7 to 7.75.

If judges are using these marks as a method of placing a skater instead of rating what the skater did, then CoP is in the end no different from 6.0.

 

[OwenEvans]

I take it you believe the Oly winner does not have to be a teenybopper. Am I correct? That will go against the norm if a skater over 20, wins unless the skater is defending a title.

Joe, I'm not sure about Djikstra in '64 and Schuba in '72, otherwise, the oldest ladies OGM winner in the past 50 years (other than Kat - see below) has been Kristi and she was 20. Firstly, skating is a "young" sport - Michael Weiss is a real exception competing in his late 20s, but even before the jumps took over and injuries started to take so many competitors out at a young age, no top-flight eligible and certainly no OGM or World Champ hung around for multiple olympic cycles. Up until 94, when eligible skaters were truely amateur (ie, no $$$ in eligible skating at all and very little in the professional ranks), unless the skater came from a wealthy background (and except for possibly Albright, none of the US lady OGMs did), "sacrifice" was the name of the game and of course, the OGMs went pro immediately after their victories (well, usually after the following worlds, but that's another thread) in order to make a living. Most of the OGMs beginning with Heiss (?) went to 2 Olympic Games, moving up to to take the gold medal at their second try and with that around their neck, they're were outta the eligible ranks for whatever $$$ could be scrounged doing easier show skating and/or coaching and nothing really has changed up to and including Sarah. I think this is why the champs were so young. And in any case. most of the OGMs were 19, 20 so they were young adults. Oksana (the precocious artist) and Tara (the precocious jumper) were the exceptions because they were truely special, and as most everyone would agree, Sarah lucked out big-time in that the faves underperformed on the night and she didn't, otherwise I don't think she, at 16, would be an OGM (and I'm not saying Sarah isn't special, just that on the night, she was dealt the best hand).

Katarina Witt is the exception in winning an OGM and continuing to compete into her 20s, but she came from a state-sponsored programme meaning she/her family didn't have to do without $$$ etc for her to become a champion - she really was a professional skater in everything but name. However, interesting in that once the iron curtain fell and Kat was free to go pro, she did - and I bet she signed that contract before the ink was dry. G&G are another example. Once there was the opportunity for some $$$, they dropped their eligible status asap. And I still feel that the main reason the pros came back to eligible competition in 94 was to raise their profile via the Olympics to increase their marketability and drawing power for when they went back to the pros - I mean, none of them (Kat, BB, Kurt, Victor, G&G etc) turned up at 94 worlds did they?

However, the irony of this is that eligible skating has now become a sham like the communist systems. How on earth any of the top-flight eligible (read: amateur) skaters, male and female can continue to consider themselves as "amateur" skaters and not be embarrassed is beyond me. Actually, it's not the skater's fault, it's the stupid ISU, still perpetuating the hypocrisy/discrimination of the IOC by clinging to their requirement for "shamateur" status. I really don't think that Michelle, whose family was not rolling in the $$$, would still be an eligible (read: amateur) skater, with all the restrictions for earning $$$ that the past amateur champs had to face in a very expensive sport, for how long now? 10 years? unless the rules for "amateurs" making $$$ have changed, which they have. I read on one of the boards recently that Michelle earned over $700k last year from the USFSA. Well, up until 92, if an eligible had earned $1 from their skating, they would have kissed goodbye any chance to compete at an Olympics or any national/world champs and most probably been stripped of any titles/medals as well.

Even though OGMs do turn professional now, I think it's so they can legitimately earn easy $$$ show-skating and coaching or whatever as entrepreneurs, rather than make their $$$ the hard way in the eligible (read: amateur!!) skating world, still under the thumb of their Federations.

Just raving...

 

[SailorGalaxia518]

Yeah, well welcome to the wonderful world of figure skating. I guess the judges are paying more attention to the actual skating of a program insteading of the jumps.

 

[soogar]

I don't think the pros who competed in '94 were eligible to compete in Worlds... however T&D did compete in Europeans that year so I could be wrong.


As for Kat Witt, her popularity after 1984 was such that she could have signed a lucrative ice contract and defected. She herself said that she skated for the titles and medals and her record speaks for itself.

 

[gkelly]

I don't think the pros who competed in '94 were eligible to compete in Worlds... however T&D did compete in Europeans that year so I could be wrong.

Yes, they certainly were eligible to compete at Worlds if they had so chosen.

Viktor Petrenko (1st), Gordeeva & Grinkov (1st), Mishkutionok & Dmitriev (3rd), and Katarina Witt (8th) also competed at 1994 Europeans.

Oh, and OwenEvans, Browning had not turned pro and reinstated; he had been eligible all along until after the 1994 Olympics.

 

[Mathman]

Hi, OwenEvans. I can't agree with your conclusion that the ISU is "stupid" for allowing eligible skaters to make money while at the same time keeping the skaters under the thumb of the ISU in terms of Olympic eligibility. IMO this was brilliancy on the part of Cinquanta and his ISU cronies. In one stroke they killed off professional skating and took control of the whole shebang.

I do not think that the Olympic movement can be called "hypocritical." The Olympics long since openly abandoned any vestige of amateurism. Eligible does not mean amateur, it means eligible. Professional basketball players, millionaire tennis players, they're all "eligible" to compete in the Olympics.

As I understand it, the whole idea of amaterism was that the European nobility, especially in England, did not want to rub shoulders with the great unwashed lower class "professionals" who had to -- ugh -- work for a living. Good riddance, I say.

Mathman

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Owen - I think eligible (amateur) are the same now in every sport. The Soviet Union fought for and won the right to send their own teams to the Olys arguing that the Olys were to be represented by the best in any country. Eventually everyone agreed and the USA was able to select the best of their pro hockey and basketball teams.

There are no true amateurs as it were in the old days. I remember you could not even give out the rented skates to the general public (they were rink rats) because you made money (small salary) in skating.

Albright, Heiss, Djikstra, Schuba and even Flemming all were in a different era. Shows were the thing to do after the OGM. I think these kids felt guilty about not giving payback to their families after they supported them financially. In those days, there were many more shows in the US, Canada and Europe. I think Kat kind of brought those $$$ back into the minds of skaters. She was extremely popular in the US with all sorts of contracts, and she was a communist to boot. Winning an OGM and make out like Kat, was what every skater in this era planned, but it didn't happen to most. Only SOI could give them some money. Kristi was one who also did well with contracts.

What I don't understand today is just what is the position of "pro" skating? Kwan may make more than any of them or at least just as much, yet she skates as an eligible. Why should these over 20 skaters turn "pro" except for faltering skating due to injuries or real old age. Kwan, Slutskaya, Sokolova, Weiss,Liashenko, Suguri, and soon, Sasha, all continuing on to skate into their twenties. For me, it's been so what? That's their business. There's money coming in without the one night stands of show skating. Michael is already raising a family, Irina is married, others will follow. I think they will fade away some day.

What we call "pro" skating or Show skating is the real problem. There competitive sector does not really connect as much as 'eligible' skating. The ardent fans of figure skating are waiting with baited breath to see Ice Wars which imo is just another TV ice show. No real competition to get one worked up like will Joubert beat Plushenko? Will D&S beat N&K? Will S&Z falter? Will Kwan leave after the Olys? These are the questions that keep fans interested. The 'pros' don't have that. Maybe someone will work this out some day.

Joe

 

[Grgranny]

I certainly can't say I blame anyone for going pro. Who else would want to go through all the work of practicing so hard. And it is hard on the body. I just can't blame anyone to go on to other things and actually it's a little selfish to think that they would stay in just so we can enjoy them. They don't owe us anything. I'm just thankful that they have done what they did. Well, except for Harding.

 

[mpal2]

The original Greek Olympics had professional athletes and didn't include any of this amateur/professional garbage. Those guys were going for the money. That olive wreath wasn't the only prize they got for winning. They got a lot of status and wealth to go along with it.

Just consider the current status of athletes (amateurs/eligibles earning money) as a return to the true Olympic spirit. :agree: