Terms and Definitions - Draft

[SeaniBu]

good, if you want this as a resource for skaters it's excellent. If it's intended as a resource for non-skaters or people who don't know any of the terms, I suggest defining some of the words used to define some of these terms because on many of these I have no idea what you are talking about.

I was shooting for that, do you havbe any examples. I put in Lobe and I was thinking just now I should put in trace and travel. What were ones in Q for you?

I think it is best that I do take that approach for the "basics but not leave anything out. So PM or post what a "Newbee" might say Hunh to, and I will try and clarify. Things like Backflip I really don't think need to be clarified. But I was just reading it over and Back spin is kinda weird, I was thinking of the comparison to a scratch and the def for Back comes out as saying "what are you comparing it to?"

Anyhoo RD, I like you despite what the "fam" says about you. I know you like Sasha or you wouldn't be saving all those pics.:agree:

 

[R.D.]

I was shooting for that, do you havbe any examples. I put in Lobe and I was thinking just now I should put in trace and travel. What were ones in Q for you?

I think it is best that I do take that approach for the "basics but not leave anything out. So PM or post what a "Newbee" might say Hunh to, and I will try and clarify. Things like Backflip I really don't think need to be clarified. But I was just reading it over and Back spin is kinda weird, I was thinking of the comparison to a scratch and the def for Back comes out as saying "what are you comparing it to?"

Hmm..let's go with this. Your definition of "blade" below, with the words that might be confusing to someone like me:

Blade - professional figure skating
There is one blade on each skate, comprised of 2 edges per blade. The edges are separated by a hollowed / concave [what?] down the center of the blade. The blade also has a slight curve from [the] front to back much like the runners on a rocking chair although much less extreme (hmm?). This curve is designated in 3 sections known as lobes; front, back and center. [picture might help here]

Now "edges" I assume are the tips of the blade? Or is it the two "sides" of the blade?

Another one:

Stroke - Cross
The step [move??] is started with the legs crossed above the knees so that the momentum of the skater is achieved from using the outside edge [slight tech speak- "outside edge" should be defined before this term] of the blade that is about to become the free skate [and what is that?].

And yet another one:

Waltz jump
Start as a glide on the "right back outside edge" [once again, make sure you define the term in quotes before you mention it here. A good rule of thumb is to start with simple everyday words and then after you introduce more "technical" terms, you can begin using those terms to define later terms.]. Then stepping forward onto the "left forward outside edge"[same thing as above.] then kicking the right leg as they begin to lift[go in the air??]. Arms are held out for it is a half rotation[hmm, maybe a little clearer for non-techies]. Waltz jumps and Axels are the only jumps starting from facing forward.

My non-expert opinion. This is assuming you're making this for a layman audience. If the audience of this FAQ is mainly supposed to be skaters or people with a background in figure skating, then the current edition is fine.

Anyhoo RD, I like you despite what the "fam" says about you. I know you like Sasha or you wouldn't be saving all those pics.:agree:

I save pics of all skaters, and I have the most pics of Tara Lipinski, followed by Kwan. Hell, I even collect pictures of Irina. No ladies skater is exempt from my picture collection

But this comment is phrased in a way to provoke me, I know it. So I will leave it at this.

 

[gkelly]

Attitude
The skater's free leg is slightly bent and lifted upward, out and behind at as much of an angle difference to the skating leg.

Well, the dictionary on my shelf defines it as standing on one leg with the other foot bent backward, but that's not what I learned in ballet class.

Here's an online ballet dictionary:
http://www.dancestudio.org/ballet_dictionary/index.html
"attitude A pose on one leg with the other extended with the knee slightly bent either to the front, side, or back."

Back spin

Spinning on a back outside edge of the right skate. Shoulder and arm positions are the same even though the spin is on a different leg. [/quote]

No, it's not necessarily on the back outside edge of the right skate. In the first place, if you spin clockwise instead of counterclockwise, the backspin will be on the left leg.

In the second place, it's possible to change edges on both forward and backward spins, so that e.g., a counterclockwise backspin could be done on the forward inside edge of the right skate. The new judging system specifically rewards changing edges, so we've seen a lot of that in the last few years.

And both forward and backward spins can be done in a variety of positions including variations of the shoulder and arm positions.

For a simple definition of the difference between a forward and a back spin, I would say that a forward spin rotates toward the skating leg, and a back spin rotates toward the free leg.

Blade - professional figure skating

Delete "professional figure skating" -- all figure skating blades, whether used by beginners, amateur competitors, or professionals, use blade designs as described. And they also usually have toepicks (of various sizes).

Bracket step
During a curve on one outside edge turning as stepping into an inside edge (or an inside edge to an outside edge) continue the curve and use same Lobe of the stepping blade as they did on the entry to the curve - the skater is turning in the opposite direction of the curve.

Counter step
This turn is from one blade on an outside edge to an outside edge (or an inside edge to an inside edge) exiting the curve on a different Lobe than the entry curve - the skater turns the opposite direction of the entry curve which is the same direction as the exit curve.


Rocker step

Delete the word "step" from all three of these. Brackets, counters, and rockers are turns, not steps -- there's no stepping from one foot to the other, it all happens on one foot. Also change "stepping" to "turning" in the bracket definition for the same reason.

Lobe
Referring to the section of the arch on the skates blade. Divided into thirds - front, center or rear.

Now, look back at your definitions for counter and rocker, which use the word "lobe" in a different sense.

The ice dance definitions that I linked to earlier in this thread define it as "Lobe - Any sequence of steps on one side of the continuous axis that is approximately semi-circular in shape." That meaning is also used in reference to serpentine step sequences. It can also refer to single edges of that shape in the context of Moves in the Field or other exercises, or just talking about changes of curve within individual moves in isolation.

Just an observation -- It's really hard to write definitions for technical terms if you don't know what they mean and are trying to paraphrase other sources. If the other sources already exist online, better to just direct people to those.

http://www.sk8stuff.com/m_basic.htm or http://www.sk8stuff.com/m_recognize.htm
http://www.ice-dance.com/techreference/tech-definitions.html

Most fans, or even freestyle skaters, don't need to know the names for all the various kinds of mohawks, chasses, etc. described in the dance terms. Of course, it can be interesting to know that there are differences between these moves and not skating them all according to the definition in a compulsory dance can make a big difference in the marks, but the actual words are really only used in technical communications about ice dance (including verbally during lessons).

 

[SeaniBu]

But this comment is phrased in a way to provoke me, I know it. So I will leave it at this.

NOOO it is not, I really mean it in jest RD. I do like you and I should have been more sensitive to what has just been posted. I DO like you and the input. I have said before sometimes people are over sensitive too. I got so much flack for the one and only thing I didn't like about MK. I know how you might feel, and the protectors do have a tendency to over exaggerate. Just watch what what you say about Fumie and I will always like you.

As the defs go thank you for that feed back. The only thing I have a question about is the fact that I explained edges in the Terms 1 - was that unclear, or were you referencing that too. Maybe I should repost all terms Defs in one post. ?? Everything else I will work on.

Keep on being you RD, I don't find you offensive or out of line. Lord knows my first posts were WAY more controversial then anything I have ever read of yours. Plus you get the best Pics!

 

[R.D.]

As the defs go thank you for that feed back. The only thing I have a question about is the fact that I explained edges in the Terms 1 - was that unclear, or were you referencing that too. Maybe I should repost all terms Defs in one post. ?? Everything else I will work on.

OK, I found the "edges" definition:

Two edges on both sides of a grooved center/hollow of the blade.

another good rule of thumb: try not to use the word you're defining in the definition! But I still find myself a little confused...grooved center/hollow? what's that? Both sides...left and right or top and bottom?

 

[SeaniBu]

Well, the dictionary on my shelf defines it as standing on one leg with the other foot bent backward, but that's not what I learned in ballet class.

Here's an online ballet dictionary:
http://www.dancestudio.org/ballet_dictionary/index.html
"attitude A pose on one leg with the other extended with the knee slightly bent either to the front, side, or back."

I am not trying to be a snot, I mean this with all humility. This is FS right. Is there a difference between the two or not?

I do think the "to the front, side, or back." is extremely relevant and will correct that.:agree:

As far as the rest, a little help here.

I want to keep with the basics and not try to be the TS, so I must need to include the factors of "normally, usually and occasionally" and then state at the beginning that there are always exceptions to every rule so this is only meant as a general guideline and not a standard for EVERYTHING. Only meant to give a head start in understanding. Unless defined specifically please consult other more thorough and complete sources. My intention was to not be overwhelming or potentially pretentious.

Delete "professional figure skating" -- all figure skating blades, whether used by beginners, amateur competitors, or professionals, use blade designs as described. And they also usually have toepicks (of various sizes).

I have found this from experience to not be true, although I should not have left out toepicks:agree: . A number of FSs at rental and sporting good stores do NOT have a hollow ground ( I have a pair of Sabers, Made in the UK, that are not such). If this has fallen out of the norm then the Sporting goods stores in Denver might be trying to sell 30 year old skates and I am misinformed via experience.

Delete the word "step" from all three of these. Brackets, counters, and rockers are turns, not steps -- there's no stepping from one foot to the other, it all happens on one foot. Also change "stepping" to "turning" in the bracket definition for the same reason.

I wrestled with that, does everyone else agree? I didn't want to but it seemed necessary with the way I was defining Jumps. You do step to do them??????

The ice dance definitions that I linked to earlier in this thread define it as "Lobe - Any sequence of steps on one side of the continuous axis that is approximately semi-circular in shape." That meaning is also used in reference to serpentine step sequences. It can also refer to single edges of that shape in the context of Moves in the Field or other exercises, or just talking about changes of curve within individual moves in isolation.

Oh? I must missunderstand Lobe. I will look it over, but really aprechiate the notification at the same time, thank you!

Just an observation -- It's really hard to write definitions for technical terms if you don't know what they mean and are trying to paraphrase other sources. If the other sources already exist online, better to just direct people to those.

That is not the point, I know people can use Google - meant in all respect, please understand.

Most fans, or even freestyle skaters, don't need to know the names for all the various kinds of mohawks, chasses, etc. described in the dance terms. Of course, it can be interesting to know that there are differences between these moves and not skating them all according to the definition in a compulsory dance can make a big difference in the marks, but the actual words are really only used in technical communications about ice dance (including verbally during lessons).

This says that I am getting to "specific" which would be good news because I would like to be more general.

Thanks!:agree:

 

[SeaniBu]

OK, I found the "edges" definition:



another good rule of thumb: try not to use the word you're defining in the definition! But I still find myself a little confused...grooved center/hollow? what's that? Both sides...left and right or top and bottom?

Dually noted, Thanks RD - I MEAN IT, NO JOKING OR ULTERIOR MOTIVE. I like it - "may I have another sir!"

 

[R.D.]

see, I'm a good "tester" for this kind of thing. Why? Because it's people like me you're making this for.

 

[gkelly]

I do think the "to the front, side, or back." is extremely relevant and will correct that.:agree:

Yeah, that's what I meant -- that the free leg is bent but not necessarily to the back. (E.g., sometimes you will see spins in front attitude position)

I have found this from experience to not be true, although I should not have left out toepicks:agree: . A number of FSs at rental and sporting good stores do NOT have a hollow ground ( I have a pair of Sabers, Made in the UK, that are not such). If this has fallen out of the norm then the Sporting goods stores in Denver might be trying to sell 30 year old skates and I am misinformed via experience.

They're selling or renting them as recreational skates for just gliding around the rink with no technique. The rental skates are often kept dull for liability reasons. Once you try to learn to do any figure skating moves that involve holding an edge, you'll be advised to get real figure skates. Even if you last through a few months worth of lessons on rentals, when you finally need to start using the right equipment to make any more progress you will still be VERY far from being a professional figure skater!

seemed necessary with the way I was defining Jumps. You do step to do them??????

Just change the word "step" to "turn" and you'll be fine.

Oh? I must missunderstand Lobe. I will look it over, but really aprechiate the notification at the same time, thank you!

You might be right about the word being used to describe blade shape -- I've never heard it, but I'm not that interested in blade design. Where did you get that information from?

I'm just saying that "lobe" is also used to refer to a curved shape made on the ice, especially in contexts where there's a counterclockwise curve followed by a clockwise one or vice versa or several in a row.

This says that I am getting to "specific" which would be good news because I would like to be more general.

Is there a consensus from people at Golden Skate who would use this document as to what kind of terms they'd like to see defined?

 

[Mathman]

What part of speech is "attitude" in the ballet sense? Do we say, "she did an attitude?" or "she assumed an attitude position?"

 

[R.D.]

If you want to be general I would start from scratch.

The parts of the figure skate...and the purpose of each part.
(Also if there's a difference between that and a hockey skate that might be a good thing to know as well).

Start with basic terms...like Edges, strokes, crossovers, etc.

Then define different Spins, Jumps, and other Various moves.

That should be it as far as a general guide goes. No need to get too specific or detailed with each definition, either. Remember, you're doing this to help people out, not confuse them more. Oh yeah, maybe a short "Cop 101" so that at least you can sort of follow a competition. Just my 2 cents here.

If I knew more about the technical aspects of FS I'd love to help you out. Alas, I can't...so the best I can do is just be a "guinea pig" for this project (and give you tips as to how to make your definitions more understandable).

 

[SeaniBu]

If you want to be general I would start from scratch.

The parts of the figure skate...and the purpose of each part.
(Also if there's a difference between that and a hockey skate that might be a good thing to know as well).

Start with basic terms...like Edges, strokes, crossovers, etc.

Then define different Spins, Jumps, and other Various moves.

That should be it as far as a general guide goes. No need to get too specific or detailed with each definition, either. Remember, you're doing this to help people out, not confuse them more. Oh yeah, maybe a short "Cop 101" so that at least you can sort of follow a competition. Just my 2 cents here.

If I knew more about the technical aspects of FS I'd love to help you out. Alas, I can't...so the best I can do is just be a "guinea pig" for this project (and give you tips as to how to make your definitions more understandable).

Nice, thanks RD, that was a check in the right direction. I'll get focused that way. I shouldn't forget where I "comes" from.:agree:

 

[gkelly]

Do we say, "she did an attitude?" or "she assumed an attitude position?"

I've heard both.

 

[SeaniBu]

I've heard both.

OK, I am officially frustrated, both with how I should approach this issue and 2 others PMs. I really get flustered when I am trying to help but seem to cause others to have questions, Loardy I just want to help everyone, I should just be a masseuse.

Anyway I have requests to Windows pros and have been looking the last terms defs over and I am not satisfied either with some, so I will sleep tonight, finish the fam slideshow and more tomorrow - then I will tackle this again. I want to bring happiness to all that are here so bad, I will keep trying and feel it is achievable at least on the level of basic and "newbee" level. All'ya'all are worth the effort, I wont let you down!!!!

Oh yeh, I have to get the TS on the Fumie Vid too. OOf.

 

[R.D.]

Just remember that you can never please everyone. Just the majority. I for one would really appreciate it, but I won't speak for anyone other than myself.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

What part of speech is "attitude" in the ballet sense? Do we say, "she did an attitude?" or "she assumed an attitude position?"

In "The Sleeping Beauty", Aurora at 16 is preparing to make her mark in the world. She is courted by 4 princes in one of the most thrilling sequences in all ballet called 'the Rose Adagio'. Towards the end of this adagio, the four princes, individually offer a hand and they promenade her in a complete circle. All this is done on point and in the attidude position.

One could say she holds an attitude position or

Her attitude position was not that good.

One doesn't need spirals all the time. A good attitude position is equally as beautiful.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

In view of GKelly's and especially Joe's response about ballet, I think the defintion for "attitude" should be changed to "attitude position" as the term being defined. "An attitude position is a position in which....

Also, it might be useful to make clear the specific use in figure skating by saying at the end something like, "applied chiefly to the layback spin."

Likewise, an "Arabesque position is a position of the body in which...., applied mainly to a spiral sequence."

You could also have a link to a definitive picture.

Another thing that might help beginners is a "use it in a sentence" example following the definition.

 

[SeaniBu]

I am getting ahead of the game today - already encoding - JOY!


Anyhoo, I am now wondering about a couple of things -

1. Wanting to redefine the "project as; Header -
"Top 200 Basic Skating Terms, Abbreviations & Definitions."
Sub head -
"For specifics or more detailed complete definitions, use your Browsers search engine and type, Define: and then the term"

2. If this is going to be for reference is it "allowed" to link to other sites?

3. And in looking over the Ladies SP Scores I NEED HELP with abbreviations
Things like,
LSp4 - is that a Layback spin with 4 revolutions?
CCoSp4 - combination Hunh?
SlSt2 - spiral what????:banging:

4. Pics are a great idea, now I am going to run into the, "you didn't use MK for that Falling Leaf, Alissa's Beilmann is way better." But that is OK because I will re-render any picture as to not disclose the skaters Identity and I think for the Beilman or something I would most likely use Denies anyhoo.

So, this might be a thread in which learned from and move on to a new thread with a different approach. ????

Following with the guidelines of forums, this is everyones thread now, and how would everyone feel if we let this one fade into the sunset and start a new one with a clear objective of 200 terms maxim? (could even make it a poll ) - definite as many of the most common Abbreviations as found in SP and LPs score sheets - throw in the "funky" stuff us forum junkies use like "snark, IMO, LOL, JAT, ETA..." in the last section as "Forum Lingo Abbreviations" - does "lingo" translate? Well the closest I can think in Japanese is "a special word" = senmon go

 

[Spun Silver]

Just a thought - it might be easier for people to help edit if it were one linked document accessible to all. The Wikipedia approach. People could use different colors to keep suggestions separate from Seanibu's original text.

 

[SeaniBu]

Just a thought - it might be easier for people to help edit if it were one linked document accessible to all. The Wikipedia approach. People could use different colors to keep suggestions separate from Seanibu's original text.

That is a great Idea, like one listing for Mohawk but have the other types listed in the definition and they link to a page elsewhere. But now the question is where? And do we / GS have to affiliate with a other site to have that be "an OK thing?"


Toni I hope you know I was joking around with you, the idea was clear to me you would be on here once and a while on your trip. Hope It is going good!