The Bielmann spin: Sasha vs. Irina

[OwenEvans]

Here is a proper Biellmann (look a the pictures at the bottom of the page):

http://members.tripod.com/ingridg/photos.html

Denise holds the blade with both hands, the held leg high above her head, while her body is in an upright position, so that her body and her slightly flexed leg form a graceful oval.

Seems to be a spin the Swiss girls specialise in - Biellman, Kreig and Ruh all had this spin down pat. I have a tape of the 94O which shows Krieg's SP; the combo spin she did to conclude was and the final position was a Biellman where she achieved an almost perfect split and gained speed :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

NNN also concluded her 99US LP with a hot Biellman if I remember correctly.

Kudos to her for trying it (and on both legs!), but sometimes Irina's Biellman looks very laboured.

Sasha has more than enough ways to display her flexibility without resorting to a Biellman, points be damned.....

 

[Doggygirl]

ITA - Sasha has great line. She needs an ugly Bielman like a hole in the head but think of the points that obstruction of justice gets!!!

Joe

Actually, Sasha fared pretty well compared to Irina at World's. Sasha's base value for non-jump elements was only .8 behind Irina (I just took a quick look, so didn't figure out the GOE on non jump elements specifically. Irina had 3-L3 and 3 L-2 on-jump elements, to Sasha's 2-L3 and 4-L2 non-jump elements. I suspect Sasha can come up with something to match levels with Irina that is not necessarily a Biellmann (unless of course Sasha wants to try that).

Sasha landed 7 "counted" tripples to Irina's 6 "counted tripples. Irina got nothing for that extra 3L, so in fairness they both "did" 7 tripples. Sasha got significant negative GOE on a tripple, and a tripple sequence, which mathematically contributed to Irina getting roughly 8 points of GOE to Sasha's roughly 4 points of GOE in total.

The base value of Sasha's program was actually just over 2 points higher than Irina's. (which of course includes Irina's "mistake" with the extra 3L). But it sure looks like Sasha was quite close in terms of technical content sans Biellmann. I personally think more is being made of Irina's Biellmann's than that topic deserves. I think Sasha has more variety difficult types of positions in her aresenal than Irina does, which is why I think Irina relies so heavily on the Biellmann.

Of course, none of this commentary addresses the rule changes for the coming season regarding the Biellmann specifically, nor does it address Sasha's continued challenges in the "solid jumps" department.

2 cents, or maybe 2 dollars.

DG

 

[R.D.]

Of course, none of this commentary addresses the rule changes for the coming season regarding the Biellmann specifically, nor does it address Sasha's continued challenges in the "solid jumps" department.

And this is part of what kicks up the interest factor a notch or two. Who's it gonna be? None of us can know, OR predict! Let's see what happens.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

So tell us, Joe. How many points *does* a hole in the head get?

kelly - I could answer that but I think I better not.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Doggygirl - I'll say it differently. Sasha's flexible talent is so advanced compared to others that she does not need a Bielman.

I personally don't think flexibility is the foundation of great figure skating and I wish fans would stop implying that it is a must in a program. A good balletic line with pretty camel spins and attitude spins is quite enough for any skater male or female. Given that, what makes a skater great is keeping to the music in the program.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

A good balletic line with pretty camel spins and attitude spins is quite enough for any skater male or female. Given that, what makes a skater great is keeping to the music in the program.

If only the CoP agreed!

 

[Doggygirl]

Doggygirl - I'll say it differently. Sasha's flexible talent is so advanced compared to others that she does not need a Bielman.

I personally don't think flexibility is the foundation of great figure skating and I wish fans would stop implying that it is a must in a program. A good balletic line with pretty camel spins and attitude spins is quite enough for any skater male or female. Given that, what makes a skater great is keeping to the music in the program.

Joe

ITA that Sasha level flexibility does not a great skater make. If that were a base line requirement, there would be a whole lot fewer elite skaters LOL!! I do think that sort of flexibility is rare enough that it creates a different look on the ice, different and interesting positions, and it certainly sets her apart. I agree that the truly great and memorable performances are the ones totally in keeping with the music. S&Z come to mind with several of their programs.

So for Sasha to create a memorable program (as opposed to memorable flexibility) she needs to do a much better job interpreting the music.

DG

 

[chuckm]

Unfortunately, I believe Sasha's extreme flexibility also interferes with her ability to land jumps cleanly. She gets into one of those ultraflex positions, then when it's time to jump, she has to uncoil herself to take off and land properly. That interferes with the timing of her jumps.

 

[Mathman]

Unfortunately, I believe Sasha's extreme flexibility also interferes with her ability to land jumps cleanly. She gets into one of those ultraflex positions, then when it's time to jump, she has to uncoil herself to take off and land properly. That interferes with the timing of her jumps.

I think that's a good point and one that is not commented on very much. Nancy Kerrigan says in her book that she always had trouble with a loop combination jump, because for a loop she had to relax her body, but for a toe pick assisted jump she had to go the other way and tense her muscles. She couldn't do a triple-toe/double loop, for instance, but she finally worked it out so she could land a double loop/triple toe in that order.

 

[R.D.]

Unfortunately, I believe Sasha's extreme flexibility also interferes with her ability to land jumps cleanly. She gets into one of those ultraflex positions, then when it's time to jump, she has to uncoil herself to take off and land properly. That interferes with the timing of her jumps.

Hmm. That's an interesting theory. I wonder if it holds any water in the "real situation".

However, some people say that Cohen has no problem landing the majority of the jumps in practice sessions. (Then again, I don't know if that's just a myth or not.)
So...

Is it Nerves? Or Technique? or Both?

 

[euterpe]

Peggy Fleming once commented on Sasha's flexibility, saying she thought it contributed to her insecure jump landings, for the same reason that chuckm said.

Maybe she does OK on practice ice because there's no real audience. I think maybe she unconsciously overflexes herself in competition in response to the audience reaction, and that makes the difference.

 

[bdreampixie]

However, some people say that Cohen has no problem landing the majority of the jumps in practice sessions. (Then again, I don't know if that's just a myth or not.)
So...

Is it Nerves? Or Technique? or Both?

I've read from reliable people that she rarely, if ever, falls in her every day practices.

I don't think it's technique, except for the lutz and sometimes the flip, her jump technique is good.

I think it's just nerves and pressure that get to her. The look on her face before big comps. tells the story. Although, she never skates as bad as people make it seem. It has more to do with expectations, and that everyone expects her to do perfect programs (and she does too).

 

[R.D.]

Although, she never skates as bad as people make it seem. It has more to do with expectations, and that everyone expects her to do perfect programs (and she does too).

EXACTLY. She usually has a fall and a stumble, but since she's competing with the best we call it a meltdown. She had a chance to win but she wasn't perfect so therefore she blew it. That's what you get once you're dubbed the Next Big One. Did she deserve that title? We could debate it to the hilt but Cohen and the fans have a choice as how to perceive her career so far. I'd bet anything she's not too happy right now. She won't rest until she gets that gold, even if she winds up with 100 silvers.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

This is where the Campbells comes in. Sasha is at home in the US and she has skated very well in the US. Even silver at Nats is like a point or two behind gold.

Let's see if Sasha skates without pressure at Campbells. I think she will skate well.
But my interest will be in a 3A by you know who. If she skates first and makes the 3A, then the nerves might start for the others.

Joe

 

[antmanb]

EXACTLY. She usually has a fall and a stumble, but since she's competing with the best we call it a meltdown. She had a chance to win but she wasn't perfect so therefore she blew it. That's what you get once you're dubbed the Next Big One. Did she deserve that title? We could debate it to the hilt but Cohen and the fans have a choice as how to perceive her career so far. I'd bet anything she's not too happy right now. She won't rest until she gets that gold, even if she winds up with 100 silvers.

You may call it a meltdown but i certanily don't - I can't recall anyone ever saying that Cohen had a meltdown...not if there is one mistake on a jump. If they have then its unfair because to me a meltdown is missing half of your intended jump content and/or falling on simple stroking/footwork. Rochette at worlds i'd call a meltdown, Cohen just has one or two mistakes and that's it.

Ant

 

[chuckm]

What happens with Sasha at important (i.e. championship) competitions is that she skates like a zombie--no expression, no joy. The one exception was the SP at Worlds 2004. She becomes so intent on not making that fatal mistake that she makes a fatal mistake or two. Or three. She just can't relax and let herself go, the way Kwan and Slute do.

 

[R.D.]

You may call it a meltdown but i certanily don't - I can't recall anyone ever saying that Cohen had a meltdown...not if there is one mistake on a jump. If they have then its unfair because to me a meltdown is missing half of your intended jump content and/or falling on simple stroking/footwork. Rochette at worlds i'd call a meltdown, Cohen just has one or two mistakes and that's it.

Ant

But that's my very point- everyone calls it a meltdown when it's not! I made this very point in another post (in another thread..?). Yes, I agree with you.

 

[antmanb]

But that's my very point- everyone calls it a meltdown when it's not! I made this very point in another post (in another thread..?). Yes, I agree with you.

While i do understand that we're agreeing (who knew that was possible !!)who's this mystical "everyone" though? where have people said this because i haven't read anything about Cohen having a "meltdown" in this forum.

Ant

 

[R.D.]

While i do understand that we're agreeing (who knew that was possible !!)who's this mystical "everyone" though? where have people said this because i haven't read anything about Cohen having a "meltdown" in this forum.

Ant

"Everyone" is being used here as a generic term. Maybe they don't refer to (Cohen's mistakes) as a "meltdown" but they will say that "she blew it", she "could have won", etc. which basically leads to the same thing in my book: They expect(ed) more from her. "They" represents the people of the skating forums and the commentators as well.

Until people start lowering their expectations of her, they will continue to be disappointed- you can count on that. As for what I think, she basically performs the way I expect her to. She hasn't surprised me yet. Nor has she disappointed me. But that's just the way I see it.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

From what I've seen of the use of the description "meltdown" it normally follows the phrase 'unless he/she has a' and it usually means he/she should win so it is not a derrogatory phrase.

As for Sasha, she made her debut for me and many others in cincinatti way back in 2000(?) and she made many of us including me believe she would be the next Oly champion. It didn't happen so there remains some criticism of her winning the 2006 Olys.

I, for one, believe in the work ethic bringing on improvement and so with Sasha and many others, I can wait and see if improvement takes place.

Joe