The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

[gkelly]

Thank you, I will read it, but I surely need a bit of time to do this. But in the meantime, are you aware of any audit of judging procedures made by any independent professional organization? Just like you audit finances and financial procedures, you can also audit assessment procedures (judging panel modus operandi) if they form a substantial portion of your operations. Has it ever been done and is any report available?

I am not aware.

It would be hard to find auditors who 1) have no connection past or present to any skating federation and 2) have sufficient knowledge of skating technique to evaluate the judging procedures.

How would you recommend to staff an outside auditing committee and how to train them to understand what is being evaluated especially when it comes to Skating Skills?

 

[Magill]

I am not aware.

It would be hard to find auditors who 1) have no connection past or present to any skating federation and 2) have sufficient knowledge of skating technique to evaluate the judging procedures.

How would you recommend to staff an outside auditing committee and how to train them to understand what is being evaluated especially when it comes to Skating Skills?

There are general procedures many of them are completely independent from what is being judged. E.g. judges' independence is a methodological concept which is crucial for any panel and there are methods to examine it regardless of what the judges judge. Their field of expertise is completely irrelevant because what you examine are formal and informal relationships and not the judging itself.
Similar for conflict of interest etc. Etc. Etc.

 

[4everchan]

Regarding exhibitions and galas : not unique to figure skating.
Tennis's version : they put a few superstars together, current and or from the past, often in doubles format and it's a riot ! It's a lighter form of tennis, they talk and have fun. Fans go nuts for it.
Some of the major leagues sports : like baseball, basketball, hockey. They have all stars games but not only the game itself but all sorts of fun things like skill and ability contests. Fans go nuts for it.
This is gore but in some ways, boxing special galas and UFC special galas are all about putting a show. Different kind of show for sure. Fans go nuts for it.

We could also make a case for special leagues in some sports... for instance Diamond league in athletics or the world swimming league in swimming. The first one sometimes features events that are not even part of world championships or olympics. Recently, men raced the 2000 meter, a race that is never done. I remember too when there are a contest between Donovan Baily and Michael Johnson. Traditionally, the fastest man in the world is the 100m record holder but Michael Johnson, a 200m specialist and a very dominant one argued he was the fastest... They agreed to race the 150m... but google up to see who was the fastest in the end In swimming, it's the concept of the teams that make it fun... a bit like WTT. Also swimmers have to swim so many different races from their usual Olympic distances. It's super interesting for a fan who follows for instance, Maggie MacNeil, a butterfly specialist, suddenly take on the back specialists and beat them or get close to them at their own specialty.

So yeah, there are all kinds of "fluff" or sportive galas, or exhbitions our there in many sports. In some ways, the figure skating galas are sometimes less different than the actual competitive numbers than in some other sports We even often see skaters perform their SP or parts of their RD or FD in the galas... I am not sure this is an argument that makes the balance tip.

 

[TallyT]

Regarding exhibitions and galas : not unique to figure skating.
Tennis's version : they put a few superstars together, current and or from the past, often in doubles format and it's a riot ! It's a lighter form of tennis, they talk and have fun. Fans go nuts for it.
Some of the major leagues sports : like baseball, basketball, hockey. They have all stars games but not only the game itself but all sorts of fun things like skill and ability contests. Fans go nuts for it.
This is gore but in some ways, boxing special galas and UFC special galas are all about putting a show. Different kind of show for sure. Fans go nuts for it.

We could also make a case for special leagues in some sports... for instance Diamond league in athletics or the world swimming league in swimming. The first one sometimes features events that are not even part of world championships or olympics. Recently, men raced the 2000 meter, a race that is never done. I remember too when there are a contest between Donovan Baily and Michael Johnson. Traditionally, the fastest man in the world is the 100m record holder but Michael Johnson, a 200m specialist and a very dominant one argued he was the fastest... They agreed to race the 150m... but google up to see who was the fastest in the end In swimming, it's the concept of the teams that make it fun... a bit like WTT. Also swimmers have to swim so many different races from their usual Olympic distances. It's super interesting for a fan who follows for instance, Maggie MacNeil, a butterfly specialist, suddenly take on the back specialists and beat them or get close to them at their own specialty.

So yeah, there are all kinds of "fluff" or sportive galas, or exhbitions our there in many sports. In some ways, the figure skating galas are sometimes less different than the actual competitive numbers than in some other sports We even often see skaters perform their SP or parts of their RD or FD in the galas... I am not sure this is an argument that makes the balance tip.

Didn't say it was unique. Asked why figure skaters can. And charge quite a lot of money, some of them, even for a niche sport.

And the best - and most expensive and high-selling - are not really fluff, they can be complex and rehearsed and include quite a lot of original elements and programs and music, sometimes live (and no I am not just talking about Yuzuru's since he went pro, or the ones Takahashi heads. I can't speak for the Russian shows, I don't watch them, but from the pictures I've seen, they do original as well as competition pieces). Some may be cheesy and OTT, but then so can not-so-high art, dance, literature etc. And as you said, you don't watch them...

 

[Mathman]

There are general procedures many of them are completely independent from what is being judged. E.g. judges' independence is a methodological concept which is crucial for any panel and there are methods to examine it regardless of what the judges judge. Their field of expertise is completely irrelevant because what you examine are formal and informal relationships and not the judging itself.
Similar for conflict of interest etc. Etc. Etc.

As far as I know the ISU does not sponsor or consult any such studies. But figure skating judging has provided fodder for many PhD theses along the lines that you suggest. Professors who must come up with a project for their students to undertake cannot resist the ready-made data sets that figure skating so tidilly provides in nice managemable chunks.

(Disclosure: I have a residual fondness for ordinal judging because I used to teach courses on the mathematics of social choice theory, The problems associated with a panel of 9 judges (voters) trying to elect a winner from among more than two candidates for public office -- oh, that just jumped off the page. )

As for the ISU judges evaluation procedures, my impression is that something has to be dreadfully off-kilter before the errant judge starts receiving "anomaly citations" and "assessments." Every year the ISU publishes a list of the assessment committee's work, and as I recall typically a dozen or so judges face reprimands and penalties of various severity. Most of these are in ice dance. I believe that at lower levels indivicual national federations and maybe even local and regional organizations do try to review the perfomrmnaces of judges in a somewhat systematic way.

Glossing over the details, the basic method for assessing judges is simply, does an individual judge more or less go along with all the other judges, or is that judge "outside the corridor." The lone wolf judge then has the opportunity to appear before the ISU body and try to show (using videos of the event, etc.) why he was right and all the other judges were wrong. This "coorodore judging" has been criticized on the grounds that it preasures the judges to try to guess what the other judges are going to do, rather than to rely solely on what he sees with his own eyes.

 

[Mathman]

What the GOEs measure is quality.

And now we have topics for two new threads along the lines of "what is art?"

What is a measurement. And what is quality?

 

[TallyT]

Figure skating judging is political. The sport itself is political. All sport is political, some are just better or worse at controlling the politics or covering them up.

 

[Mathman]

Figure skating judging is political. The sport itself is political. All sport is political, some are just better or worse at controlling the politics or covering them up.

I do not entirely agree. I think that figure skating, figure skating judging, "all sport" -- offer a smorgasbord of saints and sinners, including a lot of participants who care about fairness, honesty, and the general prospering and reputation of the sport itself. Look at how many figure skating contests are held each year where there is not a scandal.

 

[Magill]

I do not entirely agree. I think that figure skating, figure skating judging, "all sport" -- offer a smorgasbord of saints and sinners, including a lot of participants who care about fairness, honesty, and the general prospering and reputation of the sport itself. Look at how many figure skating contests are held each year where there is not a scandal.

Well, sure, but this is like saying we're ok because not every competition ends up in a scandal. This is a bit low expectation, honestly.
OTOH, if if you think about Olympics, when was the last Olympics which did not generate some kind of scandal in figure skating?
But, yes, sure, I do not doubt there are also many honest people out there who care.

 

[4everchan]

Didn't say it was unique. Asked why figure skaters can. And charge quite a lot of money, some of them, even for a niche sport.

And the best - and most expensive and high-selling - are not really fluff, they can be complex and rehearsed and include quite a lot of original elements and programs and music, sometimes live (and no I am not just talking about Yuzuru's since he went pro, or the ones Takahashi heads. I can't speak for the Russian shows, I don't watch them, but from the pictures I've seen, they do original as well as competition pieces). Some may be cheesy and OTT, but then so can not-so-high art, dance, literature etc. And as you said, you don't watch them...

Not my favourite thing, and yes, I do not usually watch them, but I never said I have never watched them. Can you imagine? I have even been to stars on ice.

How much money do you think it costs for a NHL skills contest ?

I would compare a gala to a rock show. Since some people are allowed to call astronomy and geometry art, I guess I should be allowed to call rock shows and figure skating galas entertainment and not art. So why? Because entertainment is very fun!

Since some enjoy definitions and semantics, classical music is often called art music, as opposed to pretty much all other music. So rock is rock. Rock shows are entertainment, just like figure skating galas. That is my take on it anyway. Call me a purist.. that is fine by me.

 

[icewhite]

As far as I know the ISU does not sponsor or consult any such studies. But figure skating judging has provided fodder for many PhD theses along the lines that you suggest. Professors who must come up with a project for their students to undertake cannot resist the ready-made data sets that figure skating so tidilly provides in nice managemable chunks.

(Disclosure: I have a residual fondness for ordinal judging because I used to teach courses on the mathematics of social choice theory, The problems associated with a panel of 9 judges (voters) trying to elect a winner from among more than two candidates for public office -- oh, that just jumped off the page. )

As for the ISU judges evaluation procedures, my impression is that something has to be dreadfully off-kilter before the errant judge starts receiving "anomaly citations" and "assessments." Every year the ISU publishes a list of the assessment committee's work, and as I recall typically a dozen or so judges face reprimands and penalties of various severity. Most of these are in ice dance. I believe that at lower levels indivicual national federations and maybe even local and regional organizations do try to review the perfomrmnaces of judges in a somewhat systematic way.

Glossing over the details, the basic method for assessing judges is simply, does an individual judge more or less go along with all the other judges, or is that judge "outside the corridor." The lone wolf judge then has the opportunity to appear before the ISU body and try to show (using videos of the event, etc.) why he was right and all the other judges were wrong. This "coorodore judging" has been criticized on the grounds that it preasures the judges to try to guess what the other judges are going to do, rather than to rely solely on what he sees with his own eyes.

I'm back to my main complaint about judging. Everyone thinks of bribery and politicking as the main possible problems of judging, but like I've said elsewhere, the main problem seems to be the psychological side that does not get tackled but enhanced.
Because the main supposition is that the majority is right. And that is, likely, wrong, at least in parts.

What would you, as a mathman, suggest, to tackle these psychological traps? (like positive bias to skaters with famous coaches, negative bias towards skaters from small feds, positive bias towards skaters the judges know well, negative bias towards skaters with lower jump content...)

 

[Magill]

Not my favourite thing, and yes, I do not usually watch them, but I never said I have never watched them. Can you imagine? I have even been to stars on ice.

How much money do you think it costs for a NHL skills contest ?

I would compare a gala to a rock show. Since some people are allowed to call astronomy and geometry art, I guess I should be allowed to call rock shows and figure skating galas entertainment and not art. So why? Because entertainment is very fun!

Since some enjoy definitions and semantics, classical music is often called art music, as opposed to pretty much all other music. So rock is rock. Rock shows are entertainment, just like figure skating galas. That is my take on it anyway. Call me a purist.. that is fine by me.

But lots of classical music was also made basically for entertainment and fun! It was just a different idea of fun as the times were different. Chopin was a rock star of his times. So was Mozart. So was Liszt. Paddymania was there long, long before Beatlemania.
It is only the passage of time and appearance of modern jazz, rock and such that relegated them to the status they have now as "serious" and "classical".
Being "art" does not exclude being entertaining and fun.

 

[Mathman]

What would you... suggest, to tackle these psychological traps?

I have no suggestions to make. One problem that the ISU has worked on, woth some success I think, was this: The unit of membership in the ISU is the national federation. In the olden days federations saw it as their duty to work together as a team to secure the best possible reults for the team. At events like the world championship the national team consisted of skaters, coaches, officials and judges, all with a common goal. The tools at hand might include working together with other federations to secure a desired outcome, instructions to the judges on the team as to what was expected of them, etc.

Of course, the skaters had to do their part, too. There is only so much a judge or federation official can do if the athlete falls on her face.

 

[Magill]

I have no suggestions to make. One problem that the ISU has worked on, woth some success I think, was this: The unit of membership in the ISU is the national federation. In the olden days federations saw it as their duty to work together as a team to secure the best possible reults for the team. At events like the world championship the national team consisted of skaters, coaches, officials and judges, all with a common goal. The tools at hand might include working together with other federations to secure a desired outcome, instructions to the judges on the team as to what was expected of them, etc.

Of course, the skaters had to do their part, too. There is only so much a judge or federation official can do if the athlete falls on her face.

But this is exactly what is shocking when you arrive at such information as a fan and look at it from the outside if you have any understanding of what objective and impartial judging is. So when was it officially put to an end? If at all?
Cause, you know, you can change a structure overnight by an administrative decision but it takes sometimes generations to achieve a real change in the "organizational culture", the way people really behave and think.

 

[Magill]

I have a technical question to the mods or the GS administration - would it be possible to separate the several judging-related posts from the last 2 pages to make it into a separate thread focused solely on judging procedures in FS? Even if I started such a thread myself I do not know how to move posts between threads (and I guess I do not have the authority to do that anyway) while in fact this new "thread" has already started here (and in several other places simultaneously) and is in fact ongoing
I think it would help a lot if we could keep it separate from the "what is art and other things" discussion.

 

[Mathman]

But this is exactly what is shocking when you arrive at such information as a fan and look at it from the outside if you have any understanding of what objective and impartial judging is. So when was it officially put to an end? If at all?
Cause, you know, you can change a structure overnight by an administrative decision but it takes sometimes generations to achieve a real change in the "organizational culture", the way people really behave and think.

Two-time Olympic medalist Phillippe Candeloro once famously said, "Of course we make deals. We (France) would never win anything if we didn't."

The big administrative change came with the role of the technical specialists in the IJS. In principle, these specialists work directly for the ISU, unlike the judges who are given their assignments by their federations.

But, like you say, it takes generations for people to adjust their mind-sets and behavior.

Plus, there is another side of the coin. Is it netter to invest power in an association of independent entities (the national fedearations) or in a monolithic central authority?

 

[Magill]

Two-time Olympic medalist once famously said, "Of course we make deals. We (France) would never win anything if we didn't."

The big administrative change came with the role of the technical specialists in the IJS. In principle, these specialists work directly for the ISU, unlike the judges who are given their assignments by their federations.

But, like you say, it takes generations for people to adjust their mind-sets and behavior.

Plus, there is another side of the coin. Is it netter to invest power in an association of independent entities (the national fedearations) or in a monolithic central authority?

I'd say - better invest in software and AI
Seriously, when I thought about it a while ago, I also wondered whether making judges accountable directly to ISU and employed by them or creating a separate judge-only body would help to solve the problem, as one might expect, or would just relocate it and sort of hide it away from sight, cause all these things would go on happening anyway but just not being so obvious.
Still, I guess, even if not perfect, it would be much much better that what we have now.
But thank you so much for being open about it. I have a feeling everyone knows there is this huge skeleton in the figure skating cupboard but most people choose to pretend nothing of the sort happens, it's all impartial and clean, and perfectly normal .... which basically excludes any real discussion.

 

[Mathman]

Because the main supposition is that the majority is right. And that is, likely, wrong, at least in parts.

Strangely enough, that is actually an argument in favor of ordinal judging. In an election, the people (judges) cannot be wrong. If the majority votes for this guy rather than for that guy, well, that's that.

 

[icewhite]

I just opened a new thread

 

[Magill]

I just opened a new thread

Thank you! So see you there in some time! ( I hope that the posts can be moved there)