The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating
- Thread starter moonvine
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
True. It's a risk/reward sort of thing. If you hit your biggest quad right on the beat of the huge cymbal crash, then its automatically all that and more.
If you fall, you look like a double fool for building up to a spectacular splat.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
Same for any jump or element. Doesn't have to be a quad, but that was not the point I was making. My point was more about that many skaters manage to include their quad beautifully in their programs, so it is not just a jump drill
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
It already was a criteria for decades and decades, and it's impossible to judge musical interpretation and such, without judging emotional engagement. So either we completely remove performance judgement from figure skating (terrible), or we embrace it.
Art doesn't necessarily give people the ability to do whatever they want. There are usually budget or technical limitations that prevent people from making their exact vision come to life. Often times an artist doesn't even know how to make their vision come to life exactly. There are feelings and ideas that are trying to be expressed, and art is an attempt to do that, not an automatically successful thing.
The content of competitive skating programs only needs to be defined by rules to the extent that every art is defined by certain properties - orchestral music is defined by the numerous instruments being used, or else it would not be orchestral music. Skating programs must have jumps, spins, footwork, musical interpretation, and performance. The rules surrounding what is required and valued can be far different and more flexible than what it is now. There used to be much more freedom available, and there still could be.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2020
I do not really think you understood my point. It is not about how much you, me or any other fan cares for jumps. The fact is that the skaters do get points for jumps and these points form a substantial part of their overall score, whether you like it or not. Whether this proportion is right or wrong is a different discussion. But as for now, it is what is it, therefore I think everyone should want to have these points for jumps assigned in a manner as objective as technically possible. Jumps are a good example cause they are really an objective "event" which can be measured on many dimensions by existing tools and then assigned a score by the "machine". Still the criteria for the score are still decided by humans, the difference is that once they are decided, they are applied evenly to everyone by the "machine". Let's say you have this 180 degree range for landing, if you exceed it, it becomes underrotation. So this is an objective crirterion. Now, judging by discussions even on this forum, but also from the point of view of physiology and optical science, there are much better, more objective and more precise instruments than a human eye to judge whether any given jump fits into 180 degrees criterion or not. Therefore whether points for underrotation should be deducted or not. If yes, they just get deducted automatically, without consideration for federation, reputation, jumping history, and "moral necessity" to save a particular skater. If not, they are not deducted, no matter who the skater is. how small their fed is and how many times they did underrotate the same jump earlier. It is as simple as this. I do not see anything controversial or putting off about it, even for art lovers.
And so with everything else which could be measured and quantified. It just means scoring everyone by the rules and by the same rules. More precise and objective assessment means more objective scoring and that should benefit everyone.
I am sorry, I really need to go to other cores right now, but I'll be back
Last edited:
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2018
And yet, the biggest stars on the planet, the ones people are most eager to follow and to pay to see, are nearly all those who go for the costumes and glitter and all. And yet the biggest (historically speaking and as far as this ignoramus on things US has learned) American star in their heyday was relatively muted in her dress and liked warhorses. And yet, and yet...
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2014
Yes, and believe it not, when I see a beautiful quad, or even a not beautiful one, I clap and cheer. Loudly. I. Do. Not. Hate. Jumps
I will disagree, however, with any hypothesis that says that because jumps are "objectively" measured (ummm, not so much), that is what makes figure skating a "sport" (more so than step sequences, choreo, performance, etc). Ummm, not so much.
And that emphasizing those "objective" measures will make figure skating more appealing to those who love sport. Absolutely not so much.
But as I have been saying all along, none of us know. I truly would love to see a real broad based marketing or other assessment. I don't think it will happen in my lifetime.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
You never know ! Who thought the ISU would get rid of the 6.0, a scoring system based on ordinals, unique to figure skating ?But as I have been saying all along, none of us know. I truly would love to see a real broad based marketing or other assessment. I don't think it will happen in my lifetime.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2018
Part of the current problem and turnoff in the sport is that when the biggest jumpers became seen by officialdom as the Way Of The Future Success Of The Sport, objectivity lost ground to big fed politics and people who could jump a lot suddenly magically developed all these other PCS qualities and amazing 'overnight' GOE. And surprise surprise... it didn't work like it was supposed to. The scoring system for jumps can be seen as trying for objectivity but when it's not enforced....
And re Jason, I really really like his beautiful skating (and love his personality) but no, he's not perfect (his posing is to me rather jarring) and in the not that many years I've been in the sport, the way his reputation and perceived 'greatest ever in the history of forever' has been developed and is being pushed strikes me as being not entirely untainted by the same big fed politics. No skater and no skating is free of it, not those who benefit from the judging biases nor those who are punished (like Satoko), nor those who are one or the other at different times in their career. The problem lies in the fact that subjectivity - which a judged sport can never ever avoid - does mean that the balance between the different aspects of figure skating keeps swinging around like a drunken top, sometimes slower, sometimes faster but never really stopping.
So we may as well keep the art and the beauty, to give us all something to bless our eyes as the top keeps spinning.
And re Jason, I really really like his beautiful skating (and love his personality) but no, he's not perfect (his posing is to me rather jarring) and in the not that many years I've been in the sport, the way his reputation and perceived 'greatest ever in the history of forever' has been developed and is being pushed strikes me as being not entirely untainted by the same big fed politics. No skater and no skating is free of it, not those who benefit from the judging biases nor those who are punished (like Satoko), nor those who are one or the other at different times in their career. The problem lies in the fact that subjectivity - which a judged sport can never ever avoid - does mean that the balance between the different aspects of figure skating keeps swinging around like a drunken top, sometimes slower, sometimes faster but never really stopping.
So we may as well keep the art and the beauty, to give us all something to bless our eyes as the top keeps spinning.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
Displeased or not, the attention from people who don't follow figure skating is often in the tricks... For instance... watching with friends who know nothing about figure skating, we get to ice dance, and they ask, so when are they jumping? Then, I explain that in dance, the focus is elsewhere, and they answer, "so boring"... until they see a cool lift. The tricks sell because that is what people who do not know the intricacies of the sport can easily notice.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2020
I just imagine what the discussions were when they were changing the system from 6.0 to IJS. The emotions must have been running so high and so many people probably could not imagine 6.0 could be gotten rid off and the sport would not fall apart. And yet, here we are....
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2014
I will say, I have been pleasantly amazed by the "rehabilitation", if you will, of Jason's reputation in the past few years. After years and years of why is he even skating if he can't get a quad, the world is ruled by those with quads, he will never make top ten at the Olys/Worlds/my local backyard comp without a quad, to have a semblance of agreement on his artistry is almost heartwarming. Almost
But I can also say that the US Fed, at least after 2016, has never pushed Jason. They have never promoted him, internally or externally, and I think they grudgingly go along with the flow at this point. They take advantage of it, but they don't politik for him. At. All.
Now, back to the actual subject (or more so)
Actually, again speaking only for myself, quite the opposite. High hopes for the future. Absolutely no idea that it would be used to promote some sort of "oh, it's a sport, only a numbers game, people love numbers games, let's go with that". How little I knew.... (ETA: And I understand from your earlier post that you are talking about evaluating the jumps as they are now, I appreciate the explanation, so I am not trying to be argumentative on that).
When I was coming up, the ultimate in "objective numbers" ruled the sport. School figures. Tracing lines on the ice. With protractors.
Going to "objective numbers" for me isn't something new, it's the good old days. If we're going to emphasize that, let's do it all the way and go for compulsory figures domination.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2006
True enough, art is also often limited by materials and techniques... But as a composer you can choose which instruments to include in your piece, how many of them there are etc. And they can choose the style they wish to do their compostition in. Classical ballet technique gets used in contemporary ballet in very different ways than Marius Petipa did in the 19th century. In modern dance, almost anything can happen, sky is the limit. There is a freedom there that you just cannot excercise within the limits of a competetive figure skating program.
And then there is art and Art. Within the arts, there are works that are really not regarded as art - say a painting or some image that is sold in a supermarket as a piece for interior design. Most of the art world would not regard that as art... A jingle for an ad, a piece of choreo for a commercial, etc. Not Art, though made within the framework of the fine arts?
People also often speak longingly about the freedom of the past skating eras, but if you sit down and watch the programs from the point of view of what gets done and what the composition of the programs is, you might realize that freedom back in the day was not really freedom. I happened to watch yesterday the Olympic gold medal winners in men from 1976 onwards and it was once again eye-opening...
This time I was thinking of how time was used in a free program and what the program layouts were and so on. It was quite funny to realize that Curry, Cousins and Hamilton all had 10-12 (!) jumps in their 5 min long frees... In addition there were 4-6 spins and about 3 bits that could be termed as step sequences. From 1988 onwards, the number of jumps was 8 (once 9), in addition to 3-4 spins and 2-3 steps.
Despite the freedom, the composition of each program resembled each other. Everyone starts with a 10-20 s intro before launching into prep for the first jump (well, except for Robin Cousins who had a spin at the top of his 1980 free and John Curry who went almost directly to his first jump). The most difficult jumps are presented at the start (when you still have the best energy and focus to do them) and after a small lull in activity in the middle of the program. Until the start of the 4 min program, they had a 10-20 s break in the middle when very little gets done.
The biggest difference to what gets done today is in the number of elements that get done and the time you can use. And ofc the technical difficulty. The 4 min program basically eradicated the break but this started to go already earlier with the trend towards continuous movement around the early 2010s.
Some of the best skaters can make this all seem like art, but rather than Art, maybe just art.
E
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
That is what is frustrating about this whole topic. Is figure skating a sport with an aesthetic component? Dare we say that it is a sport with an artistic component? Is it an artistic sport, or is it merely an artsy sport?
This seems to be saying the same thing over and over, with linguistic distinctions that are of ineterst only to dictionary-makers and scholars who study the myriad and conflicting ways that people use language.
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2014
LOL I thought this was a defence of armography, but alas no.
I'm sure my favourite programs wouldn't be thought of as artistic, but does that mean they're not
Or is art just a matter of opinion...
I'm sure my favourite programs wouldn't be thought of as artistic, but does that mean they're not
Or is art just a matter of opinion...
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2020
If we're back at art vs sport thing, while I was searching the net on some other matters the other day, Uncle Google (or was it some built-in AI device) suggested I should read some article, which I duly did, and sitting there was this precious quote by Patrick Chan:
“People are getting excited because of the jumps, like, ‘Wow’, instead of looking at the entire program and saying ‘That’s beautiful, that’s a piece of art right there.’ Now it’s just become, ‘Wow, did you see that quad Sal? Smoked it.’
www.thestar.com
Now, it makes me wonder, are we allowed to treat this quote as Patrick Chan's voice in our little discussion here, as he clearly expressed his desire for us to view skating programs as "pieces of art"? Or does he just want the public to be deluded into thinking it was art while in fact he was fully aware it was just a sport? Just thinking...
And does it, God forbid, make him pretentious as a skater to voice such opinions? Hmm.... .
Just a bit of provocation for thought...
“People are getting excited because of the jumps, like, ‘Wow’, instead of looking at the entire program and saying ‘That’s beautiful, that’s a piece of art right there.’ Now it’s just become, ‘Wow, did you see that quad Sal? Smoked it.’
Patrick Chan voices his opinion in quad quarrel: DiManno
The proliferation of the quad in figure skating just shows the sport is starting to lose its marbles, certainly its aesthetic-athletic balance, and Canadian champion Chan wants no part of it.
www.thestar.com
And does it, God forbid, make him pretentious as a skater to voice such opinions? Hmm.... .
Just a bit of provocation for thought...
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
1) Di Manno is not the most trustworthy source.If we're back at art vs sport thing, while I was searching the net on some other matters the other day, Uncle Google (or was it some built-in AI device) suggested I should read some article, which I duly did, and sitting there was this precious quote by Patrick Chan:
“People are getting excited because of the jumps, like, ‘Wow’, instead of looking at the entire program and saying ‘That’s beautiful, that’s a piece of art right there.’ Now it’s just become, ‘Wow, did you see that quad Sal? Smoked it.’
Now, it makes me wonder, are we allowed to treat this quote as Patrick Chan's voice in our little discussion here, as he clearly expressed his desire for us to view skating programs as "pieces of art"? Or does he just want the public to be deluded into thinking it was art while in fact he was fully aware it was just a sport? Just thinking...Patrick Chan voices his opinion in quad quarrel: DiManno
The proliferation of the quad in figure skating just shows the sport is starting to lose its marbles, certainly its aesthetic-athletic balance, and Canadian champion Chan wants no part of it.
And does it, God forbid, make him pretentious as a skater to voice such opinions? Hmm.... .
Just a bit of provocation for thought...
2) Patrick's opinion has been shared in this thread already, by yours truly and from better sources.
3) What Patrick is referring to as "artistry" is choreography : as opposed to the elements themselves. Setting up for quads takes too long. We don't need to rehash the Case for Semantics here once more? Do we?
4) Patrick was hoping for better balanced programs and he was pretty on point with that : Right now, pretty much every man's (who has a few quads) programs starts with the first 2-3 big jumping pass, then the 4th jump is pretty much often a solo triple loop as it is the lowest paying jump (forget the 2a or 3s or 3t that can be tagged after bigger jumps or not even needed anymore) then a spin, then the rest of the jumps, the steps and the final 2 spins. The choreo seq tends to be near the middle-end as well. Pretty much all programs are constructed the same. It is so predictable that we can even identify the typical 3 loop used as the 4th jumping pass, before the bonus So in that sense, all he is saying is that having so many quads take up the first couple minutes of the program and there is very little left for choreography and that every program pretty much looks the same. Nothing new, right? Perhaps, back then, it was seemed controversial by some fans of his competitors, at the same time, there is nothing shocking in his declaration. It's something that we call all observe while watching men's LP.
Just for fun :
Here is what composer supposedly Bartók said about competitions :
Hungarian composer Béla Bartók said, “Competitions are for horses, not men.” The Hungarian pianist and composer Bela Bartok famously said competitions should be for horses, not musicians. He refused to sit on competition juries because he didn't want the decisions on his conscience.
Of course, there is no direct quote of this, it's been reported by various sources. This is why I say supposedly.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
That is actually a provocative thought. The merit, whether athletic or artistic, of a figure skating performance is what it is independent of what some other performer does on the same day.
I could see an argument that goes like this. Figure skating is not a sport because there is no give and take between the competitors, as is the case in a real sport. One team tries to kick a goal, the other team tries to block it. That's sport.
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2020
Oh, no, I never said what he said was controversial. I just think it shows how pointless this discussion really is as it is all about words, and pretty vaguely defined ones, too, and the ever changing meanings we assign to them. If someone you do not like says skating is an art, or partly an art, you understand it one way and say it is wrong and pretentious. If it is someone you tend to agree with in general, you assume he meant something else and is obviously right, and there is nothing contradictory about it because you just change the meanings you assign to words like "art", "artist", "piece of art", place it in a different context etc. (and by saying "you", I do not mean you, 4everchan, specifically, but a general "you" so do not feel attacked or offended, please). The other way round, with the opposite set of views, it might be exactly the same. It happens quite often with humans.
That's why I just think that whatever we think about figure skating being art, or sport, or a mix of both, I do not believe we will ever agree about it. What, I believe, would be much more hopeful path for this discussion is to think about the best way to make it scored fairly, impartially and as objectively as possible in all its duality, or complexity, if you like, whatever we want to name it. As maybe, just maybe, this way we might come to some conclusions more or less acceptable for everyone.
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2022
Nah, that's sport with a direct opponent, but there's a million sports which work differently. Would you say long jumping is not a real sport because the competitors are jumping one after the other, without direct contact of the opponent?
Similar threads
