The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

[TallyT]

My friends love the feathers as you can imagine.

The guy who Disney+ decided had a big enough NA audience to buy up his solo show started said show with the feathers. Just sayin'.

Oh, and another reason why fans stop watching is when their favorite skater retires from competition, if they were always more a fan of that person than of the sport as a sport.

Or were alienated by how their favourite was treated (or was perceived to have been treated). I wonder how many Koreans ditched the sport after Sochi? Which brings us back to that 'seen to be clean' thing.

 

[Mathman]

fixed your post(ing)

Thank you. I Googled it and got "For You Page." (Evidently this is something on Tik-Tok. )

 

[yesterday]

Thank you. I Googled it and got "For You Page." (Evidently this is something on Tik-Tok. )

lol, never heard of that

 

[4everchan]

I don't think understanding the scoring per se is the magic bullet. Half of Australia doesn't have a clue about the scoring in the soccer World Cup but 'Our Girls Got to the Semis!!!' was enough, now we just have to see if that translates to longterm fans.

Really? Half of Australia doesn't know that passing the ball through the goalie gives a point and then, if your team scores more goals than the other team they win? I doubt so.... and actually, if they can compute that "our girls go to the semis" they actually understand all they need to understand. I could agree that they don't get what is an off-side or why there is a corner or a penalty kick... but then, when these things happen the commentators show the replays and the reason of the call. Can you imagine if we got a replay explaining why a team got a level 2instead of 3 on the Pattern type Step Sequence in the RD? That would be so amazing.

 

[TallyT]

Really? Half of Australia doesn't know that passing the ball through the goalie gives a point and then, if your team scores more goals than the other team they win? I doubt so.... and actually, if they can compute that "our girls go to the semis" they actually understand all they need to understand. I could agree that they don't get what is an off-side or why there is a corner or a penalty kick... but then, when these things happen the commentators show the replays and the reason of the call. Can you imagine if we got a replay explaining why a team got a level 2instead of 3 on the Pattern type Step Sequence in the RD? That would be so amazing.

Okay, they have a clue or two (hyperbole may not be my friend but it is my housemate). It's way behind the Big Two football codes though, so I suspect a lot of the people cheering were getting the rules for them mixed up in their heads, just knew "Our Girls Went To The Semis" and are now in the playoff for third... Listening to some of the morning show hosts and their reporters can be funny though, they really don't know but they have to try and sound like they do.

And re the skating commentators, given the number of folk online and commenting under youtube videos complaining about them and wanting less of it - or none of it! - so they can hear the program, I don't think that would be that much of a draw. Though that could be due to how crap and annoying and loath to flippin well shut UP some of them are. Which comes right round in a circle, because the footy commentators don't drown out the (non-existent, I know) music. Which is part of the art and aesthetics of figure skating.

 

[4everchan]

Okay, they have a clue or two (hyperbole may not be my friend but it is my housemate). It's way behind the Big Two football codes though, so I suspect a lot of the people cheering were getting the rules for them mixed up in their heads, just knew "Our Girls Went To The Semis" and are now in the playoff for third... Listening to some of the morning show hosts and their reporters can be funny though, they really don't know but they have to try and sound like they do.

And re the skating commentators, given the number of folk online and commenting under youtube videos complaining about them and wanting less of it - or none of it! - so they can hear the program, I don't think that would be that much of a draw. Though that could be due to how crap and annoying and loath to flippin well shut UP some of them are. Which comes right round in a circle, because the footy commentators don't drown out the (non-existent, I know) music. Which is part of the art and aesthetics of figure skating.

I never said the commentators needed to discuss the skating while it's happening? Sometimes I wonder who reads my posts or not I mentioned replays, because the slow-motion replays happen anyways. And yes, if the commentators informed the viewers about the rules, the technical quality and achievements of skaters and so on, and talked less about the feathers and sequins and awful covers during the replays, (they can leave that to us to discuss here in GS!), the viewership may feel more invested.

 

[el henry]

I don't think understanding the scoring per se is the magic bullet. Half of Australia doesn't have a clue about the scoring in the soccer World Cup but 'Our Girls Got to the Semis!!!' was enough, now we just have to see if that translates to longterm fans. And if you have ever sat through a family do turned into a 4+ hour argument about the scoring/penalties in your local brand of footy... they don't care that they're right, just that they are... well, right. If people care about watching any sort of competition, no matter how complex, they'll learn or handwave the rules. But - and this is a big, black-hole-size but - if the scores are blatantly 'fixed', people who don't even know them will get pissed off and yes I am talking about PCS and GOE and interpretation and all that suddenly going way way up when a skater gets to be favoured (sometimes even when the rules say penalties should apply and penalties don't), or is held down to give others a boost.

Which is what I at least mean by the scoring being transparent. The sport may never be clean (it's judged, and anyway even the biggest sports tend to be more or less dodgy, helllooooo FIFA) but it needs to be seen to be fair. If not, what's the point of people getting attached to and following skaters unless they get told beforehand who are going to be officialdom's darlings?

(The point, at least partly and for me, is in the art. Watching someone because their skating makes me feel good even if I know they'll never get the scores they deserve.)

First, let me say that thanks to the Australian women's soccer team inspiring an article in the NY Times I learned what "footy" refers to in Australia. Kind of. And the two different kinds of rugby (which I feel like I should have known because Jordan Mailata is such an awesome player for my Birds) and some kind of geographical dividing line for the two rugbys and Australian football and, assuming the article was right, it was fascinating.

I agree with most of the points and analogies about scoring.

Where I disagree is that some incredibly obvious fixed scores have occurred that offend the "average" fan so much they no longer watch figure skating. Nope. There is no general outcry in the "world out there" about any scores being rigged. No one is going, oh my God, that performance was so beautiful, so ethereal, so complete, they didn't win, (ETA: or, oh that performance is the most athletic, most energetic, most sporting ever) it must be rigged. At least, no one I know among our mythical casual fans.

And I'm not even sure that perception causes fans to leave. Fifty years ago, figure skating results actually were heavily influenced by country and the Cold War. The most innovative and game changing men's skater, I would argue ever, barely got bronze. Barely. In one Olympics. That didn't stop me from watching and loving him. I don't think I was some bizarre outlier, as said skater was one of the most popular of his day, and his fans weren't leaving the sport in disgust. Although we were inured to disappointment.

But that's just Me and All My Friends.

 

[Mathman]

I think it is quite backwards to say that if people understood the scoring better then they would like figure skating. Rathar I would say that if people like figure skating then they might want to learn more about how it is scored.

 

[el henry]

I think it is quite backwards to say that if people understood the scoring better then they would like figure skating. Rathar I would say that if people like figure skating then they might want to learn more about how it is scored.

 

[4everchan]

I think it is quite backwards to say that if people understood the scoring better then they would like figure skating. Rathar I would say that if people like figure skating then they might want to learn more about how it is scored.

Why does it have to be one or the other? And for those who like it and want to know more, do you really think the information is that handy? How many times did some people ask about the choreo assisted jump last year? Etc etc. Etc.etc.

I would add that nowadays, with technology, younger people expect things to be accessible quicker. I see it with my students.

But that is just Me and all My friends right?

 

[el henry]

Why does it have to be one or the other? And for those who like it and want to know more, do you really think the information is that handy? How many times did some people ask about the choreo assisted jump last year? Etc etc. Etc.etc.

I would add that nowadays, with technology, younger people expect things to be accessible quicker. I see it with my students.

But that is just Me and all My friends right?

Yes, it is, which makes us both right.

Information for those who want it should definitely be available quickly, easily and in an understandable format. We don't have Dick Button to tell us why a dropped foot is bad, bad, bad. I am all for more information in more places.

I just want to drag people in to watching this wonderful sport first. I think we all want that too.

 

[TallyT]

There is no general outcry in the "world out there" about any scores being rigged.

There was about Yuna and as I said, I do wonder if that did damage to the sport's popularity there that still hasn't quite healed. I happily admit, I have no proof. Did Mao's problem scores (deserved or not in some cases) add to the eclipsing of the women's discipline by the men? Who knows. I only know what I think looking at it.

Whatever the reason, losing widely loved skaters does of course impact, especially when there is no one who can take that place. And this is not Me and My Friends the ISU themselves (and I bet it hurt) noted the blow to their finances and equally importantly Japanese media coverage and revenues from "the retirement from competitive skating of the most popular Japanese Skater" in the 2023 financial report. Interesting too that although the very very popular few are no slouch at the technical, they are as if not more well known for being gorgeous on the ice. They also had IT of course (and way more than their share of stunning physical beauty which makes it rough on lesser mortals), and no amount of explaining the rules, tweaking the judging, or upping the aesthetics/skills of the skating itself is gonna do a damn thing about that. It's the nature of a highly creative sport-with-art.

Aaaaand so we are back to "I'm an artistic athlete". And wanting more of them. And still wondering what the original article's writer's beef actually was 17 pages ago

 

[4everchan]

People still talk about 2002 and the French judge btw, even the 2010 ice dance inappropriate theme, though I realize that the latter hasn't had the same effect as other scandals. Not just 2014... And we won't mention the recent scandals. Figure skating needs to stop the Olympic drama (almost forgot the TH related shenanigans both before the games and right at the games....)

 

[Magill]

People still talk about 2002 and the French judge btw, even the 2010 ice dance inappropriate theme, though I realize that the latter hasn't had the same effect as other scandals. Not just 2014... And we won't mention the recent scandals. Figure skating needs to stop the Olympic drama (almost forgot the TH related shenanigans both before the games and right at the games....)

After reading your post I went back to check some details of the 2002 scandal and found this article (NYT so hopefully credible enough
It mentions a proposal to be submitted at that time to have a panel of 14 judges judging any performance but only 7, randomly drawn by the computer, to be actually included in the final score. The intention of the proposal was to "reduce to a minimum the prospect of bloc judging."
Anyone knows what happened to this proposal? Cause I do not see 14 judges around. And the proposal sounds very reasonable.

Figure Skating: 2 officials banned in judging scandal (Published 2002)

The French figure skating judge Marie Reine Le Gougne and the president of the French ice sports federation, Didier Gailhaguet, were suspended from any involvement in international skating for three years after the International Skating Union ruled that

www.nytimes.com

 

[gkelly]

After reading your post I went back to check some details of the 2002 scandal and found this article (NYT so hopefully credible enough
It mentions a proposal to be submitted at that time to have a panel of 14 judges judging any performance but only 7, randomly drawn by the computer, to be actually included in the final score. The intention of the proposal was to "reduce to a minimum the prospect of bloc judging."
Anyone knows what happened to this proposal? Cause I do not see 14 judges around. And the proposal sounds very reasonable.

Figure Skating: 2 officials banned in judging scandal (Published 2002)

The French figure skating judge Marie Reine Le Gougne and the president of the French ice sports federation, Didier Gailhaguet, were suspended from any involvement in international skating for three years after the International Skating Union ruled that

www.nytimes.com

For several years, there were up to 12 judges used at major events, with secret random selection of which judges' scores counted.

See, e.g., the protocols for the 2006 Olympics: http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2006/

Also for a number of years to judges' scores were presented in random order in the protocols for senior internationals. At first they just showed each judge's column for the whole event in the same column, but with the columns in scrambled order relative to the seating assignments as Judge #1, Judge #2, etc.

Then they started randomizing the columns separate for each skater, to make it harder for judges or their federations to figure out who gave which scores.

But eventually it was decided (as I understand) that the benefits of paying for extra judges whose scores didn't count weren't worth the expense, and the benefits of hiding who gave which scores didn't outweigh the desire for transparency from everyone else aside from judges who were being pressured by their federations.

So those procedures were eventually done away with. It would take more research to remind myself whether that happened before or after 2010.

 

[Mathman]

Anyone knows what happened to this proposal? Cause I do not see 14 judges around. And the proposal sounds very reasonable.

This was part of the discussions while the Interim Scoring System was rushed into place to serve as a placeholder while they worked out the details of the Code of Points introduced two years later (2004) (Technically the Interim System more properly refers to 6.0 judging with anaonymous jusdges.). No, it was noit reasonable. Why have (and pay for) 7 extra judges sittimng there pretending to be judges for the television cameras and then throw out all teir marks at the random whim of the roll of dice. (Statistically speaking it would be better just to have 14 judges, period, not 7 real judges and 7 fake judges.) It could happen, and occasionally did happen, that the medals were decided because the computer picked this subset of 7 judges to count, rather than that.

The whole point was that figure skating gave the entire Olympics movement a black eye in 2002.. The IOC leaned on the ISU to "do something." The ISU's mantra was that the problem was that powerful federation heads, like Didier Gailhaguet, were a bunch of crooks who coerced the judges from their respective countries to cheat. The remedy was anonymous judging. Under these systems not only did no one know which judge gave which marks, they didn't even know which set of marks were chosen by the computer to decide the winner. That way the French judge could lie in the face of the federation head and promise to judge as she had been instructed, but then woud be free to vote her consience and the federation head would be none the wiser.

Naturally a great howl arose, either of laughter or of indignation, over the entire "anonymous judging" scheme. (As I recall they tried variations like having 9 udges and randomly throwing out the scores or 4 of them.) The whole principle of anonymous judging was phased out over the next several years and attention turned to refining the Code of Points by annual or semi-annual revisions. Indeed, the new goal was to make the scoring systyem more transparent. rather than covering it up iby deliberate obfuscation.

 

[yesterday]

People still talk about 2002 and the French judge btw, even the 2010 ice dance inappropriate theme, though I realize that the latter hasn't had the same effect as other scandals. Not just 2014... And we won't mention the recent scandals. Figure skating needs to stop the Olympic drama (almost forgot the TH related shenanigans both before the games and right at the games....)

and costume malfunctions (was that at the Games?)

 

[skatesofgold]

I'm going to admit that I watch figure skating for the tricks. I think it's easier to tell who should win when comparing quads to triples and spins with more features to ones with less because I don't think it's possibly to fairly quantify artistry when different cultures have different values in art. I do also find it more enjoyable to watch programs with music that I like. I don't like bad covers or music that I perceive as like watching paint dry. I know blade work is an important part of figure skating, but I just have no interest in it.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

I do also find it more enjoyable to watch programs with music that I like. I don't like bad covers or music that I perceive as like watching paint dry.

That's a good point! If I am honest with myself, what makes a performance great for me is probably 50% do I like the music, 30% whether it's done by one of my favourite skaters (for my absolute favourites I will even forgive a Notre Dame de Paris program ), and 20% random other stuff like if it has any cool moves or how does it fit my current mood...
So there you have my brutal honesty. I guess I am just a figure skating philistine.

 

[TallyT]

I do also find it more enjoyable to watch programs with music that I like. I don't like bad covers or music that I perceive as like watching paint dry.

Doesn't everyone? There's a couple of particular easy listening singers (I do not care for the genre though as usual there are a few wonderful exceptions) who I absolutely cannot stand... I would rather listen to a a flock of disgrunted and squabbling cockatoos at down. (And then there is the high crime of bad cuts of good music, more evil to me than bad cuts of bad music.) I therefore do my own version of the youtube strike on them (which at least we can. when it's a costume making the eyes bleed it's rather worse) or avoid the skater altogether.