The credibility of figure skating : Is it a sport or a popularity contest with sponsors ?

[Mathman]

^ So true. Marlene Dietritch for instance.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01394/marlened_1394988c.jpg

 

[wasabi]

The hype around the Olympic Games isn't so much about winning medals, it's about selling stuff to as many people as possible. Sickening, but true. If it's been Rachael Flatt in Mirai's shoe, the storyline of an Olympian getting ditched for someone who didn't make it last time would be big. But then the money machine would have already been in the work way before this even happens.

Sadly, the Olympics has become about so much other than the athletes. Sometimes it seems they are little more than fodder.

One has to really question the ethics of holding an event that tops $60Billion ( a winter event at that with limited world wide appeal) for 2 weeks of entertainment. Most of the athletes walk away with a few trinkets, some clothing, photos and memories. Perhaps, the spirit and original goals of the Olympics should be reviewed and remembered.

I have been an Olympics fan for as long as I can remember, but this event, every two years, is starting to lose its appeal, all things considered.

 

[Mathman]

Sport or beauty pageant?

Figure skating is a discipline that combines athletic derring-do with performing arts. The first mark and the second. Even on the tech side, you get points for what you do (base value) and also for how pretty you look doing it (GOE).

IMHO the move toward making figure skating "more like other sports" is a disaster. If figure skating were like other sports, why would we need figure skating at all?

 

[Panini]

Ashley Wagner is the opposite of the stereotypical ice princess golden girl. She does not have "Teutonic beauty" at all. She's more in the tough cookie, kick 'em in the groin mold -- which, by the way, is the new ideal throughout all women's sports. Go Serena Williams!

Venus Williams is an admirable tough cookie. Serena Williams is someone who threatens to shove a tennis ball down a lineswoman's throat. Hardly an ideal in women's sports.

 

[Layfan]

My comments below are based on the psyche of American sports fans. It may or may not apply to other countries.

We like our sports to be sudden death, win or lose, lay it all out on the line.

I understand that USFS had publicized the rules ahead of time, and their deviation from strict placements to select the Olympic team should not have been a surprise.

But this mindset plays against how Americans perceive sport.

The Superbowl doesn't feature the teams the league officials believe have played best over the season. It's a death match between the two teams who have dodged all the bullets and come through during the playoffs. The Olympic swimming/track teams are decided on the field of play. Diving, another subjectively judged sport, has Olympic trials. In all the events, it's "Go Big or Go Home."

When the casual figure skating fan sees the type of outcome we saw in Boston (and the outcome of Japanese nationals, for that matter), it feeds into the notion that figure skating is rigged. Non-skating fans, who we'd hope to lure in, see it as a non-sport.

Again, USFS did nothing against the rules technically, but they have tarnished the image of the sport among the general public.

In Olympic years, US Nats should be billed as The Olympic Trials. One man's opinion.

Yay!

I couldn't agree more. You should not be able to shore up a reputation and then coast your way to the big prizes. And I'm not saying Ashley deliberately coasted - she obviously worked hard and then had a bad night. But this kind of system opens the door to that. "Oh, I got more medals last year than my competitors so I don't have to worry about nationals. Fifth place is fine." No. That is not sportly. It's not good competition. You should have to stay on your game. That's the excitement of Olympic sports.

(Still, I have to say, over and over again, that I am totally rooting for Ashley at the Olympics and I look forward to seeing her S&D again.)

 

[gkelly]

Figure skating is a discipline that combines athletic derring-do with performing arts. The first mark and the second. Even on the tech side, you get points for what you do (base value) and also for how pretty you look doing it (GOE).

GOE is not primarily about how pretty you look doing an element, but about the technical quality (as opposed to difficulty) of the element.

Nice neat flutz, underrotated and free toe lightly touches on landing. Very pretty, no visible errors to the untrained eye, but deserving of -2 GOE at best.

Big clean fast fully rotated lutz with difficult approach and strong takeoff edge by a skater with bad posture and bow legs, slightly off axis in the air but with a catlike landing. Not especially pretty, but GOE shouldn't be any lower than 0.


Camel-change camel spin (level 2) in a men's short program. Beautiful positions from a skater with great body line and stretch; OK speed and centering, but barely 5 revolutions on each foot, where 6 are required, and a wide step (recentering) at the change from one foot to the other. 0 GOE would be generous.

Camel-change camel spin (level 2) by a skater with a more muscle-bound body type. The body line isn't very pretty and doesn't earn any pluses. But very fast, 10 revolutions on one foot and 12-15 on the other, perfect centering on each foot and barely a blade length distance between the first foot and the second, edge change and complex turns on the exit. Not as pretty, but technically superior and deserving of +GOE.

 

[pangtongfan]

I begin to lost interest with the sport with all of theses controversy.

It begins with Takahiko Kozuka who has earn his place to Sochi with his 3rd place and the federation take Daisuke Takahashi instead of him who finish 5th place.

Now, Mirai Nagasu who has also earn her place to Sochi fair and square with her 3rd place at nationals and shows a great season was replace by Ashley Wagner.

And, there is some rumor about Evgeni Plushenko to get the spot for Sochi even if he was clearly defeat by Maxim Kovtun all season.

All, of theses choice doesn't make sense!!

Does Figure skating is a sport or a popularity contest with sponsors ?

If you think federations deciding that just one ok event (3rd at Nationals) isnt automatically enough to be sent over someone who has attained far better results in the recent period of time than you (I am talking about both Kozuka-Takahashi and Wagner-Nagasu here) means the sport is just a popularity contest, then I feel incredibly sorry for you and your narrow minded, flawed, mentality.

 

[Mathman]

{Responding to gkelly). I would expand the definition of "pretty." A two-footed flutz is not as pretty as a deep, solid, well-established outside edge take-off and a proper landing with extended flowing edge. A well-centered, very fast camel spin with many revolutions is very pretty indeed -- even if it's Elvis Stojko.

 

[leafygreens]

I mean... I get why people want to say a sport is a sport and the immediate results are the only things that should matter, but let's say Davis and White had choked at nationals. Say they were coming down with the flu but chose to skate for their 6th title and fell all over the ice and came in fourth. Should we not still send them? When Ian Thorpe had a false start at trials, the federation didn't hold to that disqualification; they sent him anyway and he won gold. Now Ashley isn't on their level as Olympic medal winners and reigning world champions, but I think most people recognize that sometimes exceptions need to be made, that there is a bigger picture than just one competition's results and who you send to a once-every-four-years competition probably deserves a longer look than just at one podium's standings. I don't think sending Mirai and Polina over Ashley would have made sense if you look at the larger picture of this season and the quad. We wouldn't have three spots if not for Ashley. She helped make a lot of $$ for the USFSA which in turn helps the skaters at WTT. IDK... I'm glad Ashley is going. It makes more sense to me than to have her stay home based on nationals results. I wish Mirai would have been scored higher than Polina though.

It's not right because they didn't tell anyone ahead of time that Ashley's place was already set in stone. The other skaters thought they were skating for three spots.

 

[pangtongfan]

It's not right because they didn't tell anyone ahead of time that Ashley's place was already set in stone. The other skaters thought they were skating for three spots.

If the women honestly believed there were always 3 spots open than they werent using their brains or living in reality. Skating fans, networks, reporters, have talked for over a year now that Wagner and even Gold were pretty much locks for the team. The discussion has always been "who will be the 3rd girl".

 

[Dragonlady]

For years, I have decried the idiocy of naming the US Worlds and Olympic Teams based on the results of one event: US Nationals. Canada doesn't do this, nor does Russia, China, France or Japan. Of the Big 6, only the US has doggedly stuck to a one-event formula, and the often the results of Nationals appear to have been "cooked" so that the USFSA got the team it wanted, rather than letting skaters have their moment and their medal, but sending the most proven, consistent competitors. Anyone can have a bad competition, boot problems, or the flu. To have your entire season rest on the results of this event, makes no practical sense at all. What's the point of all of those other competitions you do, if not to establish yourself as a top competitor?

I am reminded of Nicole Bobek in 1998. Blew off the GP season, trained for Nationals with dedication and effort and pulled off a bronze medal, and then slacked off for the rest of the season. Bobek is an extreme example, but I bring it up because Mirai's performance this past weekend, reminded me of Bobek at 1998 US Nationals - an erractic, undisciplined skater who managed to retain her focus and commit to one competition, with nothing to indicate that such effort would continue.

At one point, I thought Mirai was the going to be the next great US Ladies Champion. While many US fans were convinced that Zhang would be the one, her technical issues were so apparent and problematic, I couldn't see it happening. Mirai had better basic stroking, better jumps, and more speed. But there seems to be issues with Mirai's work ethic, or her focus, that got worse as she got older. She's acknowledged them herself. Between her coach hopping, and her inconsistent results, I gave up.

For those of you who said the Olympic team selection criteria should be published, it was. The skaters have known for months that the results at Nationals were only one of several events which would be factored into team selection. If you want the US to have better international results, you need to send the best skaters, not the skaters who turn in their best performances at one competition. That's how you ended up with 2 skaters for the Men at this year's Olympics, and why you've languished for years with two spots for women.

One poster said that the USFSA should have a competition called the "Olympic Trials" and let the results of that event stand, but if they do that, they must pay royalties to the US Olympic Committee and/or the IOC because to call your event "Olympic Trials" or to advertize it as such, requires payment of a royalty to the Olympic movement.

 

[pangtongfan]

For years, I have decried the idiocy of naming the US Worlds and Olympic Teams based on the results of one event: US Nationals. Canada doesn't do this, nor does Russia, China, France or Japan. Of the Big 6, only the US has doggedly stuck to a one-event formula, and the often the results of Nationals appear to have been "cooked" so that the USFSA got the team it wanted, rather than letting skaters have their moment and their medal, but sending the most proven, consistent competitors. Anyone can have a bad competition, boot problems, or the flu. To have your entire season rest on the results of this event, makes no practical sense at all. What's the point of all of those other competitions you do, if not to establish yourself as a top competitor?

I am reminded of Nicole Bobek in 1998. Blew off the GP season, trained for Nationals with dedication and effort and pulled off a bronze medal, and then slacked off for the rest of the season. Bobek is an extreme example, but I bring it up because Mirai's performance this past weekend, reminded me of Bobek at 1998 US Nationals - an erractic, undisciplined skater who managed to retain her focus and commit to one competition, with nothing to indicate that such effort would continue.

At one point, I thought Mirai was the going to be the next great US Ladies Champion. While many US fans were convinced that Zhang would be the one, her technical issues were so apparent and problematic, I couldn't see it happening. Mirai had better basic stroking, better jumps, and more speed. But there seems to be issues with Mirai's work ethic, or her focus, that got worse as she got older. She's acknowledged them herself. Between her coach hopping, and her inconsistent results, I gave up.

For those of you who said the Olympic team selection criteria should be published, it was. The skaters have known for months that the results at Nationals were only one of several events which would be factored into team selection. If you want the US to have better international results, you need to send the best skaters, not the skaters who turn in their best performances at one competition. That's how you ended up with 2 skaters for the Men at this year's Olympics, and why you've languished for years with two spots for women.

One poster said that the USFSA should have a competition called the "Olympic Trials" and let the results of that event stand, but if they do that, they must pay royalties to the US Olympic Committee and/or the IOC because to call your event "Olympic Trials" or to advertize it as such, requires payment of a royalty to the Olympic movement.

Excellent post! ITA on all. Especialy on your part on the flawed U.S selection procedure being part of what has kept them at 2 singles skaters so often for so long. Had they been able to send Zhang instead of Czisny in 2009, Nagasu instead of injured Flatt in 2011, Zhang in place of injured Czisny in 2012, Abbott instead of Miner in 2011 and possibly 2013, this long drought of only 2 U.S single skaters might well have ended much sooner. The U.S was so overly respectful of National results they even declined to pull badly injured skaters off the team and looked like a joke to the rest of the skating World.

 

[Mathman]

Canada doesn't do this, nor does Russia, China, France or Japan.

True. Canada, Russia, China, France and Japan. They don't do it that way.

 

[Olympia]

The other issue is that if Americans feel like complaining that "money talks," in other words that skaters with a lot of sponsorships are more attractive to the committee, we have only ourselves to blame. Many other countries have national programs to develop and help skaters. We don't want to pay for that as a country. So the system depends on the skaters' own financial resources and/or their ability to attract sponsors. The federation itself also depends on sponsorships, especially for TV broadcasts. Everyone who wants an unimpeded free market system in this country, this is what it looks like. You can have one thing or the other, but you can't necessarily have both. This statement is not meant to be political. It is mathematical. The money has to come from somewhere, and we have chosen where it comes from.

 

[Dragonlady]

I thought the sponsorships for USFSA medalists came from the USFSA pool of national sponsors and that the US women's champion appeared in ads for products which provide sponsorship $$ for the federation. I remember Michelle appearing in Chevy ads and Sarah Hughes on a Campbell's soup can when those companies had contracts with the USFSA.

In Canada, athletes cannot acccept sponsorships without a clearance from Skate Canada. Going into 2010, several Canadian skaters were offered a $10K sponsorship contract with a company with no affiliation to Skate Canada. Skate Canada refused to provide clearance for the contract because the federation already had an exclusive athlete endorsement contract with a competitor company.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

It was going to be pretty hard to prop her up with 2 falls. One more and we would have a new human zamboni.

Why? It worked at Nationals last year. :sarcasm:

Which is why so many people are reluctant to consider it an actual sport...hell, I've been following it since before I can remember and yet lately here I find myself being more and more turned-off by the results.

It's a popularity contest, a pageant of sorts. It's not necessarily based on how you did on that particular night, but what you did that night and several other nights a few months back. That's reputation scoring. It's why a top skater can fall several times and still win; the judges know what they can do and will reward them based on what they've done in the past rather than what they did in that particular competition.

It's also a sport that is dictated by the federations. It's just as easy to prop someone up as it is to hold them down. Just look at Agnes. She got dropped like a hot skillet this year at nationals whereas last nationals (despite falling in both programs) she ended up 3rd. Why? The judges were still holding out hope that she could deliver so they padded her PCS to keep her on the podium. This year they had Gracie coming out of her Frank Carroll transformation as well as Ashley, who had medaled all season long...and then little Polina jumps up on the scene. By that point there was no need to keep Agnes as a "placeholder" skater and she was dumped. If Ashley continues to go downhill, she's next...

It's not right but it's always been that way.

If Ashley is not retiring after the Olympic season she really needs to stop taking such spills at Nationals. This past week showed that the judges were willing to place her in 4th - partly I think because golden Gracie had arrived - and now Polina seems to be another new favorite of the USFSA. What happened to Zhang, Flatt, Nagasu, and Zawadski could happen to Wagner if she keeps having shaky skates.

I mean... I get why people want to say a sport is a sport and the immediate results are the only things that should matter, but let's say Davis and White had choked at nationals. Say they were coming down with the flu but chose to skate for their 6th title and fell all over the ice and came in fourth. Should we not still send them? When Ian Thorpe had a false start at trials, the federation didn't hold to that disqualification; they sent him anyway and he won gold. Now Ashley isn't on their level as Olympic medal winners and reigning world champions, but I think most people recognize that sometimes exceptions need to be made, that there is a bigger picture than just one competition's results and who you send to a once-every-four-years competition probably deserves a longer look than just at one podium's standings. I don't think sending Mirai and Polina over Ashley would have made sense if you look at the larger picture of this season and the quad. We wouldn't have three spots if not for Ashley. She helped make a lot of $$ for the USFSA which in turn helps the skaters at WTT. IDK... I'm glad Ashley is going. It makes more sense to me than to have her stay home based on nationals results. I wish Mirai would have been scored higher than Polina though.

I wish the USFSA would do what Japan does and have more criteria for the second (and third when applicable) spots to make the selection process more transparent and less arbitrary feeling. And Mirai should be going to Worlds like Max and C&J!

This is why I think the USFSA should make it abundantly clear that there are only one or two spots available (if any) at the Olympic year Nationals. This crap about 'body of work' is a whole lot of hooey.

It's like one user commented on one of those news sites that reported this mess. Quote: 'Body of work = We'll do whatever the f*** we want!'

Don't have the television commentators imply that there is a chance for 3 spots but that some obscure criteria that most casual tv skating fans are unaware of will be the deciding factor. Call a spade a spade. Just say it. Wagner/Gold are in - one spot will be available. Or be truthful and say the Olympic team has already been decided - Nationals will decide the World teams - but again make it clear if there are truly any spots available.

It's not right because they didn't tell anyone ahead of time that Ashley's place was already set in stone. The other skaters thought they were skating for three spots.

And so did most of the watching public, or so it seems. NBC's promos leading up to Nationals clearly made it seem that there were Olympic spots on the line - not that there were only one or two spots already taken.

The other issue is that if Americans feel like complaining that "money talks," in other words that skaters with a lot of sponsorships are more attractive to the committee, we have only ourselves to blame. Many other countries have national programs to develop and help skaters. We don't want to pay for that as a country. So the system depends on the skaters' own financial resources and/or their ability to attract sponsors. The federation itself also depends on sponsorships, especially for TV broadcasts. Everyone who wants an unimpeded free market system in this country, this is what it looks like. You can have one thing or the other, but you can't necessarily have both. This statement is not meant to be political. It is mathematical. The money has to come from somewhere, and we have chosen where it comes from.

I never chose any such thing. When I was young, I wished that my government funded my athletic endeavors just like the Soviets did their young athletes because I simply could not afford 20 to 40 hr per week lessons, nevermind all the other expenses incurred in very expensive sports. The closest I got to government funding was high school gymnastics and tennis - and by then I simply wasn't good enough for the big time.

 

[Olympia]

I never chose any such thing. When I was young, I wished that my government funded my athletic endeavors just like the Soviets did their young athletes because I simply could not afford 20 to 40 hr per week lessons, nevermind all the other expenses incurred in very expensive sports. The closest I got to government funding was high school gymnastics and tennis - and by then I simply wasn't good enough for the big time.

Alas, I didn't choose it either, but you and I were outvoted on this.