The Judging Controversy Thread

[drivingmissdaisy]

As Dick Button pointed out it, "she's not a complete skater". This kind of skater does not deserve to almost set an Olympic record- regardless of scoring system. If this has become a sign of things to come, we might as well drop the PCS score and make it all about the technical aspect of skating After all, to be honest about it, that is what happened in Sochi (assuming you don't subscribe to the conspiracy theory, which I do).

She is not a complete skater but skated a more difficult program than complete skaters. Do we limit gold medals only to "complete skaters" regardless of how empty their programs are? Carolina almost exclusively did crossovers and a few arm movements between her 3Lo and 3T, her 3T and her 3S, and her 3S and her 3S combo. Yuna took 13 seconds to set up and execute her lutz combo in which all choreography stopped and she did nothing but stroking and jumping, and there are other empty parts in her program as well. You may have found Adelina's program "busy" but she was always doing something more complex than crossovers to gain speed.

 

[capcomeback]

She is not a complete skater but skated a more difficult program than complete skaters. Do we limit gold medals only to "complete skaters" regardless of how empty their programs are? Carolina almost exclusively did crossovers and a few arm movements between her 3Lo and 3T, her 3T and her 3S, and her 3S and her 3S combo. Yuna took 13 seconds to set up and execute her lutz combo in which all choreography stopped and she did nothing but stroking and jumping, and there are other empty parts in her program as well. You may have found Adelina's program "busy" but she was always doing something more complex than crossovers to gain speed.

My problem is that she was scored as "a complete skater". If you compare Adelina's 2014 Olympic programs to Yuna's 2010 Olympic programs, can you honestly tell me that Adelina skated a virtually equal performance to Yuna? This should set off warning bells in itself that there was either malfeasance or ineptitude on the part of officials. My best guess is if Yuna's had skated first, Adelina's scores would have been lower. Instead, Adelina needed to be scored higher to ensure she would win (if Yuna had a brilliant FS instead of merely an excellent one). Adelina was not brilliant. Her performance was not historic in terms of merit. She was good, but not even gold. She was bronze-worthy. Her inflated GOE on a couple flawed elements (thanks to the inept or corrupt tech panel) and on a few decently performed ones and her inflated PCS (thanks to overly generous or perhaps corrupt judging) in several categories only prove that she was handed that medal. I know you like the skater, but I have no dog in this hunt (I'm not a fan of Yuna, Mao, Julia, Carolina or even Gracie).

This sport will never be taken seriously until it clearly defines itself in the eyes on the world. No sport should mistake a good performance with a great one. Once you start doing that, you're just annoying your fans.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

If you compare Adelina's 2014 Olympic programs to Yuna's 2010 Olympic programs, can you honestly tell me that Adelina skated a virtually equal performance to Yuna? This should set off warning bells in itself that there was either malfeasance or ineptitude on the part of officials.

It isn't about which program I liked better, as I did in fact prefer Yuna Vancouver to Adelina Sochi. If you aren't watching these programs with a calculator you aren't doing what the judges are doing. I know it must be frustrating for fans and even the commentators because under 6.0 you could tell what a winning program looked like. It's a different sport now; more is better.

 

[capcomeback]

It isn't about which program I liked better, as I did in fact prefer Yuna Vancouver to Adelina Sochi. If you aren't watching these programs with a calculator you aren't doing what the judges are doing. I know it must be frustrating for fans and even the commentators because under 6.0 you could tell what a winning program looked like. It's a different sport now; more is better.

How's a sport better that you can't gauge how well someone is performing by watching? How is a sport better when even the commentators are confused or questioning the outcome? Regardless of the scoring system, officials need to abide by the rules and use technology to verify their findings (in the case of the tech panel, Adelina's flutz and UR should have been caught).

 

[Anna K.]

Then, I think we are saying the same thing. The judges do compare or rank the skaters in each program component...

They do it because they have no objective data to compare. Like, they can't measure the real skating speed, or calculate the real ice coverage, or check the real synchronity with the music. That's why I mention technologies time by time but unfortunately it's all sci-fi by now :scowl:

 

[caelum]

They do it because they have no objective data to compare. Like, they can't measure the real skating speed, or calculate the real ice coverage, or check the real synchronity with the music. That's why I mention technologies time by time but unfortunately it's all sci-fi by now :scowl:

It's not really sci-fi, it could be built and implemented. But there is both a cultural resistance to it, and perhaps much more significantly, it would be very, very expensive. Just a few years ago (2008 I think?) the judging panel was reduced from 12 to 9 to save cost. If the ISU can't afford 3 judges, they can't afford any significant technology investment.

 

[capcomeback]

It's not really sci-fi, it could be built and implemented. But there is both a cultural resistance to it, and perhaps much more significantly, it would be very, very expensive. Just a few years ago (2008 I think?) the judging panel was reduced from 12 to 9 to save cost. If the ISU can't afford 3 judges, they can't afford any significant technology investment.

Agreed, A sensor in the boot could determine, speed and edges for jumps (etc). Video could continue to be used for UR's and to verify edge calls to allow for the possibility of a malfunctioning sensor). Yeah but the tech would be pricy.

 

[Anna K.]

It's not really sci-fi, it could be built and implemented. But there is both a cultural resistance to it, and perhaps much more significantly, it would be very, very expensive. Just a few years ago (2008 I think?) the judging panel was reduced from 12 to 9 to save cost. If the ISU can't afford 3 judges, they can't afford any significant technology investment.

Well, every coffee maker has a sensor package these days; I don't think that production costs for sensor skates or other sensor equipment would be that great. However, I agree that ISU most likely doesn't have money even for a modest investment.
Maybe a commercial project could be developed independantly from ISU but who would be interested?

 

[starrynight]

How's a sport better that you can't gauge how well someone is performing by watching? How is a sport better when even the commentators are confused or questioning the outcome? Regardless of the scoring system, officials need to abide by the rules and use technology to verify their findings (in the case of the tech panel, Adelina's flutz and UR should have been caught).

Moreover, Brennan interviewed an ISU judge who was not on the Sochi ladies singles panel: he said Caro should have gotten at least one more point over Adelina in every five compenent and Yuna was by far better than Adelina. This is why not only the judging system but the authority to select judges should be compeletly overhauled. As Kwan noted, who put Alla Shekhovsheva and Lakernik into the panel? Who took the two judges out at the last minute? Who's behind the scene to manipulate the games and shoo away one of the greatest skaters in tears and waste time of many figure skating fans to reason out the results? I would very much like to identify this mastermind guy.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

As Kwan noted, who put Alla Shekhovsheva and Lakernik into the panel? Who took the two judges out at the last minute? Who's behind the scene to manipulate the games and shoo away one of the greatest skaters in tears and waste time of many figure skating fans to reason out the results? I would very much like to identify this mastermind guy.

Who keeps putting Joe Inman in judging panels when he tried to manipulate the Vancouver results in favor of the US skater? You should read the judge selection process before you get outraged over this. Of course it was Putin who kicked off two judges he didn't like.

 

[capcomeback]

Who keeps putting Joe Inman in judging panels when he tried to manipulate the Vancouver results in favor of the US skater? You should read the judge selection process before you get outraged over this. Of course it was Putin who kicked off two judges he didn't like.

If Innman was caught and suspended then he shouldn't be allowed on any panel (as should not Balkov). That being said, you're argument by pointing at another judge, has no bearing on Michelle's question. There is a serious conflict of interest by having Alla Shekhovsheva, who happens to be the wife of the Director of the Russian Ice Federation (the body that supervises and supports Russian skaters). By having the Vice President of the same organization in charge of monitoring the technical panel (along with the disgraced Balkov), it smacks of a cheating conspiracy. Again, we get that you like Adelina, but you have to admit that this does not look above boards.

Edit: I've found what you're referring to about Joe innman and it does not begin to approach what Balkov did. The comparison is not appropriate at all!

 

[starrynight]

You should read the judge selection process before you get outraged over this.

Again you got the issue wrong. At issue is not the judge selection process but the judge selection manipulation.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

If Innman was caught and suspended then he shouldn't be allowed on any panel (as should not Balkov). That being said, you're argument by pointing at another judge, has no bearing on Michelle's question. There is a serious conflict of interest by having Alla Shekhovsheva, who happens to be the wife of the Director of the Russian Ice Federation (the body that supervises and supports Russian skaters). By having the Vice President of the same organization in charge of monitoring the technical panel (along with the disgraced Balkov), it smacks of a cheating conspiracy. Again, we get that you like Adelina, but you have to admit that this does not look above boards.

First, whether the Ukrainian judge should be on the panel should have little to do with Adelina's win because (a) 5 judges scored her above 151 and (b) Ukrain and Russia aren't exactly on the best of terms so to suggest a judge from the country for sure is going to vote for a Russian skater is silly. Second, skating is a very small community and judges will have personal relationships with coaches, administrators and even some skaters. The relationship is out in the open so it isn't like anyone was trying to hide it. If there were something more sinister going on don't you think the Russians would select a judge who appeared more of an outsider, since you all are convinced that 6 judges were bought off and the Russians would be able to influence any judge they selected?

Michelle only cares about Yuna letting her skate in more shows

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Again you got the issue wrong. At issue is not the judge selection process but the judge selection manipulation.

There is a process for how the judges are "manipulated" as well

 

[capcomeback]

First, whether the Ukrainian judge should be on the panel should have little to do with Adelina's win because (a) 5 judges scored her above 151 and (b) Ukrain and Russia aren't exactly on the best of terms so to suggest a judge from the country for sure is going to vote for a Russian skater is silly. Second, skating is a very small community and judges will have personal relationships with coaches, administrators and even some skaters. The relationship is out in the open so it isn't like anyone was trying to hide it. If there were something more sinister going on don't you think the Russians would select a judge who appeared more of an outsider, since you all are convinced that 6 judges were bought off and the Russians would be able to influence any judge they selected?

Michelle only cares about Yuna letting her skate in more shows

Are you telling me that Alla Shekhovsheva is the only Russian judge? (lol). Seriously, to me it seems obvious that officers of a countries governing bodies and their spouses should not be allowed to judge athletes that are governed by these bodies. Regardless of what happens it raises the specter of impropriety. What your saying is that if the Russians were dishonest and smart enough to cheat, they would have cheated in a less obvious way. The thing is the anonymous judging system makes that point moot because there is no way to know what Alla's score for Adelina (and for Yuna, Carolina etc) were.

As far as Balkov, unless you know what his politics are, you have no way of knowing what his motivations could be. Not everyone in Ukraine dislikes Russia (though quite many do). Still, some even yearn for the days of the USSR again. Additionally, as you rightfully state, the skating community is a small one and skating friendships and alliances don't necessarily change due to political and geographical changes.

Additionally, we have no idea the possibility of monetary corruption or possible coercion that might have been involved and who could have been influenced. These things have a way of coming out eventually. I'm sure it's just a matter of time.

 

[starrynight]

Edit: I've found what you're referring to about Joe innman and it does not begin to approach what Balkov did. The comparison is not appropriate at all!

Thanks for the head up.

 

[usethis2]

Mao had a brilliant FS, but it's about 2 programs.

Then I suppose you at least acknowledge that "Adelina had more technical contents" is a bogus argument?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

While I do not like the idea of a wife of the a federation's top dogs judging I simply can't see it any more of a conflict of interest than sending anyone who is a member of a federation to represent on a judging panel. I mean aren't both going to judge more in favor of the skaters that represent the "style" of skating promoted by their federation. Why would one be anymore bias than the other. I think this is a fair question.

 

[usethis2]

That's 6.0 thinking. In IJS they're specifically not supposed to be placing skaters, and there's no way to know exactly how they place skaters in overall totals.

It might come down to a difference in spin or step levels, which the judges never ever know while the competition is going on. Judges have no control over that.

I agree. But I wish people were consistent. You cannot have it both ways: IJS works this way, but sometimes judges will do xxxx. (??)

It's like their principles are defeatism and nihilism. There are countless examples of nonsensical scores given out to skaters in IJS system, you know.

 

[usethis2]

What I'm trying to say is that it's not necessarily the system itself that is at fault, but the way in which it is applied. It doesn't help that the judges need to pay attention to every single element of the program and then also come up with an impression of the program as a whole. Maybe having two separate panels for GOE and PCS would be better in this aspect.

Agree. And what kind of people are being put in charge is what matters most, IMO. The Russian tech controller, for instance, was full of BS and is an epitome of corruption. Why they put him in charge, despite the appearance of impropriety, is of course what everyone knows about.