The Judging Controversy Thread

[Sam-Skwantch]

In the same token, some poster(s) are quite quite to make nasty comments about Yuna to defend Adelina...
amazing!

"Be the change you want to see in the world"-Ghandi

 

[cchen24]

"Be the change you want to see in the world"-Ghandi

I never attack any skater. I know they work so freakingly hard on a daily basis. I am only a fan.
I may not like the marks handed out by the judges, but I never attack any skater because of that.
I've only criticized the judges and they deserve that!

If you don't believe me, go back and check my posts.

 

[jenm]

If Lipnitskaya and Sotnikova to a great extent, and Gold to a lesser extent, had been scored more fairly in terms of PCS, tech marks GOEs, edge calls and under-rotation with a figure more in line with what they received during the Grand Prix season for both the SP and LP, even if the scores were somewhat higher, and Mao had been given the score she truly deserved for her stellar LP, remember we're talking a base tech score of 66 with no mistakes and outstanding presence and interpretation, Mao would have received the bronze not Sotnikova.

This is exactly what I believe. Less people are talking about Gracie's score inflation too. I know her jumps in the team were off axis but she had a fall in the individual event. Her LP score literally just increased 7 pts in a week. I personally believe that that increase was too high. idk what's going on anymore.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I never attack any skater. I know they work so freakingly hard on a daily basis. I am only a fan.
I may not like the marks handed out by the judges, but I never attack any skater because of that.
I've only criticized the judges and they deserve that!

If you don't believe me, go back and check my posts.

When did I say you did? We know who does it. Ever had a run in with Flatt_Fan who odly enough hasn't posted since the Ladies FS. Odd a lot of accounts were created that day. :think:

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

In the same token, some poster(s) are quite quick o make nasty comments about Yuna to defend Adelina...
amazing!

Oh please, I only joke when I say Yuna looks like she's eating buffalo wings. The point is that artistic interpretation is subjective and where you see elegance others may see something different. Objectively speaking, there are multiple times in Yuna's program where she may go 5 - 15 seconds without doing anything choreographically (usually preparing for a jump) and that is overlooked, yet when Adelina doesn't have the same holes she is criticized for having a "busy" program that is choreographically weaker. It's fine to prefer Yuna but to say there is no merit to Adelina's approach is a bit ignorant.

 

[cchen24]

Oh please, I only joke when I say Yuna looks like she's eating buffalo wings. The point is that artistic interpretation is subjective and where you see elegance others may see something different. Objectively speaking, there are multiple times in Yuna's program where she may go 5 - 15 seconds without doing anything choreographically (usually preparing for a jump) and that is overlooked, yet when Adelina doesn't have the same holes she is criticized for having a "busy" program that is choreographically weaker. It's fine to prefer Yuna but to say there is no merit to Adelina's approach is a bit ignorant.

Hooters program?

 

[verysmuchso]

I'm sure you have plenty seeing as how I've never seen you post anything that sheds a positive light on anything in regards to figure skating.

You must be confusing me with someone else. My post regards drivingmissdaisy's post ridiculing Yuna's LP. I too would like to suggest to you to stick to topics related to figure skating instead of characterizing other posters. Meanwhile, if I offended you for some reason elsewhere on this board, I wish you could have let it known then and there. I am rather puzzled as to what your post regards really.

 

[usethis2]

Yeah, it gets old for folks labeling ALL who disagree with the Sochi results as "Sotnikova haters". While it is true I'm nowhere close to being a fan of hers, I certainly do not "hate" her. That's too strong of a word.

For real. If the judging was fair, I would probably singing the praise of Adelina right now. That I do not do so does not mean that I hate the skater. I mean, they haven't done anything to me nor do I know them in person. I may dislike a skater's skating, but there is never a hate on athletes. Judges and mobs are a different story, however.

The passive-aggressiveness of some posters is quite disturbing. They seem to be deploying monopolizing tactic, making successive posts even when there is no response. As of now I have to click through several pages to follow the discussion because half the posts are hidden due to my personal ignore list. It is not very civil to blow horn and to make deafening noises just because you do not like what others are discussing. A better etiquette is to refrain from participating. I do not jump in every thread open just to see what others are into. When a topic is of no interest to me I simply stay out. (e.g. "Yuna's Boyfriend") It is apparently too much to expect such decency from some insecure people. (Granted, I have to say this forum is much healthier than the FSU forum)

The problem is that this requires a public furor that has yet to happen. When you bring up the Olympic Women's Skating petition, they will shrug their shoulders and say that 90% of it is signed by South Koreans. Right now, Putin's escapade in Crimea and the corruption in that regional government has people distracted (and importantly so). The way to have changes happen is to complain loudly to the ISU (and local federations) from skating websites (like this one), threatening to stop following the sport. If you get no response, then send a petition NBC (in the US) and other international television broadcaster, threatening not to watch. To mix a metaphor, "hit 'em where it counts and then you have them by the short and curlies," lol

I know that figure skating is perhaps the last on many people's concerns, but I would like to believe that a massive scandal isn't a prerequisite for reasoned debates. If you think about it, even after the 2002 scandal and adoption of IJS the same people have been still running the show. Michelle Kwan made a direct comment on this. As long as the corrupt incumbents are surrounded by like-minded rats, a reform will be difficult.

Nevertheless, I refuse to accept defeatism as an answer. And yes, as you suggested, boycotting is one way of applying pressure. I am keeping an eye on where things are headed first.

 

[capcomeback]

That's the great thing about skating. No one crams anything down your throat. You can like any program you wish, and 2 or 3 of the judges likely enjoyed Yuna's program as much as you. One even marked it as the best ever.

DMD-

The judges and other officials cram it down our throats with their results.

S-S-

I'm not condemning Adelina's skills as much as I'm condemning those who inflate them (or perhaps, cheat to ensure her victory). Again, she's a talented skater who has spent the last few years trying to live up to lofty expectations. If she had simply skated lights out or gotten the bronze based upon her actual performance (certainly a good one), I would have been very happy for her.

 

[sk8in]

Oh please, I only joke when I say Yuna looks like she's eating buffalo wings. The point is that artistic interpretation is subjective and where you see elegance others may see something different. Objectively speaking, there are multiple times in Yuna's program where she may go 5 - 15 seconds without doing anything choreographically (usually preparing for a jump) and that is overlooked, yet when Adelina doesn't have the same holes she is criticized for having a "busy" program that is choreographically weaker. It's fine to prefer Yuna but to say there is no merit to Adelina's approach is a bit ignorant.

Interpretation is not subjective in the ISU system. Again, the scores are not broken down as "Technical" and "Artistic" as it was in the 6.0 system. It is broken down as "Technical" and "Component," and the Interpretation score under component reflects how in sync the skater's movement is with the music. The tempo of music is not subjective, and it is very easy to observe if a skater is keeping with it. So given that Adelina's "choreography" and interpretation were not in sync with the music, they should not have received very high scores.

 

[CarneAsada]

When did I say you did? We know who does it. Ever had a run in with Flatt_Fan who odly enough hasn't posted since the Ladies FS. Odd a lot of accounts were created that day. :think:

FlattFan promised us that he/she would stop following skating after Yuna, Mao, and Carolina retired because the worthless "leftovers" couldn't live up to them. I think that might be the reason.

 

[usethis2]

Interpretation is not subjective in the ISU system. Again, the scores are not broken down as "Technical" and "Artistic" as it was in the 6.0 system. It is broken down as "Technical" and "Component," and the Interpretation score under component reflects how in sync the skater's movement is with the music. The tempo of music is not subjective, and it is very easy to observe if a skater is keeping with it. So given that Adelina's "choreography" and interpretation were not in sync with the music, they should not have received very high scores.

Absolutely correct.

I went to look for Yuna and Mao's performances when they were 16.

Yuna 2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dYCpF0uQxU
Mao 2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5G3Ns2i86U

The difference between the Russian girls are like night and day. And compare the scores while at it. Isn't the IJS supposed to measure "absolute" performance, that can be compared from competition to competition? The joke's on the Russian Skating Federation and their enablers (as well as appeasers).

 

[Spinerette]

I agree with you but wanted to inform you of a better consensus on this board.

1. Adelina had no choreography. (Discussion: What exactly was Sotnikova's theme in her long program?) Added with her junior-ish ice coverage and circular skating, even the apologists do not know what the heck her choreo is about. They instead resort to rhetoric such as "Adelina stole the night," "She was more athletic," which are either irrelevant or flat-out untrue.

2. With lack of choreo, there is no interpretation by definition. (with the exception of hand-waving, of course )

3. As to the quality of skating, we have an excellent post that is stickied in Figure Skating Reference forum: Evaluating Step Sequences

P.S. 17 year old Yuna and Mao (circa 2008~2009) had plenty of musicality and interpretation at that time. You can easily find their performances on YouTube.

Yes, you're absolutely right about Yuna and Mao at that age having more interpretation and musicality. I could also add Lipinski, Cohen, Baiul and even Bobek on that list. Even Naomi Nari Nam in 1999 when she was 13 was more musical and had better interpretation.

 

[sk8in]

Absolutely correct.

I went to look for Yuna and Mao's performances when they were 16.

Yuna 2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dYCpF0uQxU
Mao 2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5G3Ns2i86U

The difference between the Russian girls are like night and day. And compare the scores while at it. Isn't the IJS supposed to measure "absolute" performance, that can be compared from competition to competition? The joke's on the Russian Skating Federation and their enablers.

Exactly. It isn't like Adelina is like 12 and just learned to figure skate. Michelle Kwan was 18 during her Nagano performance. Controlled lines and deep edges are things that have to be trained in addition to everything else. Sotnikova simply lacks them.

 

[Spinerette]

For real. If the judging was fair, I would probably singing the praise of Adelina right now. That I do not do so does not mean that I hate the skater. I mean, they haven't done anything to me nor do I know them in person. I may dislike a skater's skating, but there is never a hate on athletes. Judges and mobs are a different story, however.

The passive-aggressiveness of some posters is quite disturbing. They seem to be deploying monopolizing tactic, making successive posts even when there is no response. As of now I have to click through several pages to follow the discussion because half the posts are hidden due to my personal ignore list. It is not very civil to blow horn and to make deafening noises just because you do not like what others are discussing. A better etiquette is to refrain from participating. I do not jump in every thread open just to see what others are into. When a topic is of no interest to me I simply stay out. (e.g. "Yuna's Boyfriend") It is apparently too much to expect such decency from some insecure people. (Granted, I have to say this forum is much healthier than the FSU forum)



I know that figure skating is perhaps the last on many people's concerns, but I would like to believe that a massive scandal isn't a prerequisite for reasoned debates. If you think about it, even after the 2002 scandal and adoption of IJS the same people have been still running the show. Michelle Kwan made a direct comment on this. As long as the corrupt incumbents are surrounded by like-minded rats, a reform will be difficult.

Nevertheless, I refuse to accept defeatism as an answer. And yes, as you suggested, boycotting is one way of applying pressure. I am keeping an eye on where things are headed first.

Me too, if Adelina won fair and square I would have cheered for her win at the upcoming worlds. Instead the fake win is having her hide and I wouldn't be surprised if she retires soon. I would have been happy for Adelina because she had been lurking in the shadows of Julia Lipnitskaia and was was prevented from competing in the team event. They tried to get Julia to win the hearts of people during the team event and tried to rally her win so that they could justify her forced fs win. So they even made her skate to Schindler's List, LOL. What a twisted world we live in.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Me too, if Adelina won fair and square I would have cheered for her win at the upcoming worlds. Instead the fake win is having her hide and I wouldn't be surprised if she retires soon. I would have been happy for Adelina because she had been lurking in the shadows of Julia Lipnitskaia and was was prevented from competing in the team event. They tried to get Julia to win the hearts of people during the team event and tried to rally her win so that they could justify her forced fs win. So they even made her skate to Schindler's List, LOL. What a twisted world we live in.

You really research your "facts". Yulia chose Schindlers List herself in spite of her coaches telling her not to. She chose it herself and they brought in Averbukh who is Jewish to do the choreography since no one else would. At least use the truth here when criticizing others artistic preferences.

Your fact about the federation leaving Adelina off the team event are disputable too. Many reports out of Russia say Adelina's coaches would not let her participate(sound familiar)while others say it was due to the closeness not only of Adelina's and Yulia's SP scores all season, but the closeness of the pairs and ice dance events immediately following. Actually they were predicted to get silver if you remember so they made wise decisions in that regard. Do you have information not available to the Russian presses and if so I honestly am interested. Feel free to share.

 

[Spinerette]

You really research your "facts". Yulia chose Schindlers List herself in spite of her coaches telling her not to. She chose it herself and they brought in Averbukh who is Jewish to do the choreography since no one else would. At least use the truth here when criticizing others artistic preferences.

Your fact about the federation leaving Adelina off the team event are disputable too. Many reports out of Russia say Adelina's coaches would not let her participate(sound familiar)while others say it was due to the closeness not only of Adelina's and Yulia's SP scores all season, but the closeness of the pairs and ice dance events immediately following. Actually they were predicted to get silver if you remember so they made wise decisions in that regard. Do you have information not available to the Russian presses and if so I honestly am interested. Feel free to share.

After this scandal when it comes to Russian skaters, I don't believe anything that they say or do or the people who surround them. I don't believe that BS about Julia picking her own music or what not. Do you believe that Adelina has better choreography/interpretation than Kostner in the fs because Adelina got higher marks in that category than Carolina?

What is in indisputable is that Adelina Sotnikova landed only 5 clean triples and Yuna Kim landed 6 clean triples so the technical argument doesn't make sense here.

 

[usethis2]

Yes, you're absolutely right about Yuna and Mao at that age having more interpretation and musicality. I could also add Lipinski, Cohen, Baiul and even Bobek on that list. Even Naomi Nari Nam in 1999 when she was 13 was more musical and had better interpretation.

Oh, of course. The skaters you mentioned breathed music on the ice. But to be fair to Adelina/Yulia I am only exampling COP era skaters.

I don't believe that BS about Julia picking her own music or what not.

There are people who still believe that BS. lol. I told them Yulia is a converted Jew.

 

[capcomeback]

You really research your "facts". Yulia chose Schindlers List herself in spite of her coaches telling her not to. She chose it herself and they brought in Averbukh who is Jewish to do the choreography since no one else would. At least use the truth here when criticizing others artistic preferences.

Your fact about the federation leaving Adelina off the team event are disputable too. Many reports out of Russia say Adelina's coaches would not let her participate(sound familiar)while others say it was due to the closeness not only of Adelina's and Yulia's SP scores all season, but the closeness of the pairs and ice dance events immediately following. Actually they were predicted to get silver if you remember so they made wise decisions in that regard. Do you have information not available to the Russian presses and if so I honestly am interested. Feel free to share.

It smacks of Russia being afraid of Adelina being scored lower than the marks she received in Sochi. With that additional pressure, if Adelina faltered and skated badly, it would be an embarrassment to Russia. Either way, sending Julia gives her a chance to redeem her performance in the Ladies' Individual Event, while cementing her reputation based upon how she skated in the Team Event. Still, the fact that Russia can send two skaters and they are sending another skater in Adelina's place seems to indicate that Russia may be through with Adelina. This is a great shame, as the girl has talent. If she's smart, she'll emigrate somewhere where she can continue to improve her skating.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Controlled lines and deep edges are things that have to be trained in addition to everything else. Sotnikova simply lacks them.

Seriously? Sotnikova's spirals are 10 times better than Yuna or Carolina.