The Judging Controversy Thread

[Rubirosa]

Yuna was not arrogant, disrespectful to other skaters, or unclassy. Her layout in the SP was the toughest of all three medalists, and she was the only medalist to attempt 2 lutzes in the FS. She did the 3/3 that Kostner did not attempt to do in the FS (and that Adelina did not successfully do in the FS). And no, she didn't get her GOE & PCS by name alone.

If you don't like Yuna, fine. But quit fabricating all these reasons to hate on her. Your propaganda stinks. Maybe just start a hate thread?

Then I suggest you check out that stinky protocol to see the truth. Yuna didn't have the toughest layout, she was #9 in Base Value, eight other girls challenged more difficult layout. It's arrogant and disrespectful to other skaters to enter Olympics with difficulty #9 as a medal contender. She knew that her programs were much simpler- about 5 points lower than others, about 10 points lower than Mao's. She counted on her name, reputation, put all eggs in GOE&PCS busket hoping that they will cover the difference, and hoping that other skaters will make mistakes. Second lutz? Is it a joke? What other jump could she jump? 3 Loop? :sarcasm:
You can choose to live in denial. It's okay. Truth hurts. But insulting people never works for your favor. It only prove your weakness like lack of facts.
Hate thread? We are here. If Mao won, then it would Mao hate thread, if Caro won, then Caro, now Adelina hate thread. When Yuna doesn't win, it's always judges' fault, she is always underscored, others are always overscored. When she indeed bombs and you can't blame judges, then it's sunflower seed's fault.
Yuna fans will be bitter forever. It's their problem. It doesn't matter anymore. I respect Mao and Caro fans who had to deal with cyber bullies in Yuna era. Now we have poetic Satoko, athletic Adelina, joyful Kanako, tough Yulia, shining Elena, bright Gracie who looks like a movie star, I am so happy for you girls that you don't have to deal with being compared with Yuna by her fans. Now this Dark Ice Age is gone. Everyone can challenge and win. Nothing is granted, don't count on your name and reputation, work hard and bring us joy. You all can do it. Generation Next.

 

[cooper]

Then I suggest you check out that stinky protocol to see the truth. Yuna didn't have the toughest layout, she was #9 in Base Value, eight other girls challenged more difficult layout. It's arrogant and disrespectful to other skaters to enter Olympics with difficulty #9 as a medal contender. She knew that her programs were much simpler- about 5 points lower than others, about 10 points lower than Mao's. She counted on her name, reputation, put all eggs in GOE&PCS busket hoping that they will cover the difference, and hoping that other skaters will make mistakes. Second lutz? Is it a joke? What other jump could she jump? 3 Loop? :sarcasm:
You can choose to live in denial. It's okay. Truth hurts. But insulting people never works for your favor. It only prove your weakness like lack of facts.
Hate thread? We are here. If Mao won, then it would Mao hate thread, if Caro won, then Caro, now Adelina hate thread. When Yuna doesn't win, it's always judges' fault, she is always underscored, others are always overscored. When she indeed bombs and you can't blame judges, then it's sunflower seed's fault.
Yuna fans will be bitter forever. It's their problem. It doesn't matter anymore. I respect Mao and Caro fans who had to deal with cyber bullies in Yuna era. Now we have poetic Satoko, athletic Adelina, joyful Kanako, tough Yulia, shining Elena, bright Gracie who looks like a movie star, I am so happy for you girls that you don't have to deal with being compared with Yuna by her fans. Now this Dark Ice Age is gone. Everyone can challenge and win. Nothing is granted, don't count on your name and reputation, work hard and bring us joy. You all can do it. Generation Next.

i think you sound familiar..

well yuna had one of the toughest lay outs in the sp..

im still waiting for you research.. about the article or interview when you claimed that yuna didn't win with grace?? where is that again?? lol

and don't worry i'm sure yuna will be happy with her life and looking back at her amazing career.. im sure her fans including me can look back and say she achieved so much.. after all she's still has her OGM and never miss a podium in her entire career..

and maybe.. maybe you're so called Dark Ice Age will never be gone.. after all 2018 will be in pyeongchang..

 

[usethis2]

@chalk5: I'll bite.

1. There are different regions and levels of skating around the globe, and the degree of corruption vary. I know there are many mid-to-low level judges who call things as they see. It is always suspect at the Olympic level but it helps when there is an indisputable winner.

2. I thought I saw lots of her friends when she was in Canada, and when she did shows in Korea. I don't think they looked particularly jealous but who knows..

3. Some fans did not like that choice and wanted more "big" music. In retrespoct, I think it was the right choice if that was what she and Wilson wanted since the result would not have been different. Besides which, had she kept Les Mis people would have criticized her for her "lack of effort." Adios Nonino is a farewell piece from Yuna that grows on you. Thanks to her program I even got to know this amazing rendition of the music.

4. I think they are in good terms. I agree that he sort of owes her his current career or at least they were mutually beneficial. It's amazing how thin he was when he just started with Yuna and now he's like double the size.

5. Of course. However, no other country had that big of a dog in this fight in the Olympics, and it's not something Orser could have changed. (I doubt Obama could have, lol)

6. Who knows?

7. Most folks probably forgot. They've had lots of brand-new gold medalists from these Olympics. Even if they are aware of the injustice, they may still take criticism as an attack against them and react accordingly - which is why this is a win-win for the regime. Oh and many of Mao fans (including myself) do not like Tarasova. I do not think Mao learned or improved anything under Tarasova.

8. Yah Yuna's early years were pretty terrible and I still don't know how she learned all those "textbook" jumps where she was. I am pretty sure the country has now a more skating-friendly environment.

9. No idea. Considering that world class skaters usually begin their training before teens, I am guessing we will see in 4~8 years.

10. I am hoping at least some serious reform. Especially erudiating corrupt and suspect incumbents. It has nothing to do with IQ of Russians, though.

P.S. Does anyone know where the Youtube link that compares Adelina's TEB performance and Olympic performance? I lost it.

 

[Anna K.]

Hi, chalk5

Good to see you here. If this thread keeps spreading 2 pages per day with a new member who’s eager to catch up every week, it will reach the page 1000 about the time the next season ends.

However, you don’t have to discuss necessarily everything within this thread. Like, there is the Fan Fest section in this forum http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?362-Fan-Fests where your questions about Yuna and Adelina will fit in very well in Yuna thread
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?29910-Yu-Na-Kim
and Adelina thread respectively
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?38493-Adelina-Sotnikova
and there is also the section for discussing politics
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?176-Politics
and this thread is directly about your questions regarding Russia:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?45138-What-The-Russia-Says
You can browse the forum for threads that discuss Korea or you can start a thread about it because it really looks like there are none.

If you occasionally get reported and warned for the sentence you ended your post with, please know it wasn’t me. I have my own 1-2-3 count before reporting anyone


P.S. Aw, usethis2, I didn't notice you're here already

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

My theory is that because after what happened in SLC in 2002, Scott and Sandra (and Johnny and Tara for that matter) were told beforehand not to make waves (if anything controversial happened) "for the good of the sport". With gagged commentators and anonymous judging, corruption would be able to run rampant. I hope Christine Brennan from the media and other former skaters/commentators like Katarina Witt, Kurt Browning, Dick Button and others continue to speak out and we can get some changes in this sport.

Why would only NBC care about the good of the sport and not BBC, CBC, etc? Witt and Brownings reactions were based on what they saw and not going over the protocols. The NBC team was also a bit surprised but in interviews after all agreed with the result after looking at the protocols. This isn't about the best looking program winning anymore, as it was under 6.0.

 

[Nadya]

Here you go:

1) I hope your blood pressure has improved after you typed this.

2) We will never know if Kim has friends, or if her having or not having friends has anything to do with her being in any league. No, Michelle Kwan doesn't know Kim is a bigger deal than she ever was. Probably because Kim isn't a bigger deal. Kwan "got to go internationally to skate" (whatever that means, I presume English isn't your first language) when Kim was still pooping in her diapers.

3) Because there is an expectation of new programs every year.

4) Brian Orser had a life before Yuna and will continue having one after Yuna. He doesn't owe her anything.

5) Russia will do whatever is in her best interest, just like any other country.

6) Adelina is loving it, as is her country.

7) See above, Russians are loving it. Yes, we are superficial and cold. If you don't like Russian coaches, don't get one.

8) Ask a Korean.

9) Ask a Korean.

10) It will die an honorable death.

One can't speak with confidence about IQs of countries, only of individuals. In that vein, I am confident that my IQ, for instance, trumps yours.

 

[jaylee]

Why would only NBC care about the good of the sport and not BBC, CBC, etc? Witt and Brownings reactions were based on what they saw and not going over the protocols. The NBC team was also a bit surprised but in interviews after all agreed with the result after looking at the protocols. This isn't about the best looking program winning anymore, as it was under 6.0.

All of the commentators could see the protocols and levels for the elements before the scores were announced.

 

[LRK]

All of the commentators could see the protocols and levels for the elements before the scores were announced.

I don't think that was the case with the Swedish commentators, at any rate. Even after the scores came up they would say things like "I suppose that this means X go that jump ratified" or "that probably means Y got a downgrade on such-and-such".

 

[jaylee]

Then I suggest you check out that stinky protocol to see the truth. Yuna didn't have the toughest layout, she was #9 in Base Value, eight other girls challenged more difficult layout. It's arrogant and disrespectful to other skaters to enter Olympics with difficulty #9 as a medal contender.

Why emphasize what 8 other girls "challenged" when they didn't all actually successfully execute their layouts? Why should a skater get more credit for what they plan to do than what they actually successfully execute?

2010 Olympics: Mao Asada's base value in the FS was lower than Yuna Kim's, Joannie Rochette's, Mirai Nagasu's, Miki Ando's, and Alena Leonova's. http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/owg10_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Oh, but she ATTEMPTED more than all of them...too bad it didn't show up in that "stinky protocol."

Using your logic of giving more credit to base value and NOT to GOE & PCS, Mao didn't deserve that silver medal after all.

Keep trying to rewrite history--and see how it can be twisted to suit any purpose.

 

[capcomeback]

Why would only NBC care about the good of the sport and not BBC, CBC, etc? Witt and Brownings reactions were based on what they saw and not going over the protocols. The NBC team was also a bit surprised but in interviews after all agreed with the result after looking at the protocols. This isn't about the best looking program winning anymore, as it was under 6.0.

Are you kidding? The answer is RATINGS! Lower ratings = lower advertising support = less money.

Figure Skating has been one of the most popular events at the Olympics and in general, NBC has tied itself to figure skating as part of their sports programming (the way ABC had in the past). Controversies like SLC added to the news cycle for a few months, but then really hurt the credibility of a sport that had to rebuild its fan base since then. Another controversy would ultimately hurt NBC where it hurts the most: Its wallet!

As far as the other networks responses, maybe Figure Skating not be as big a part of their sports programs (i.e. maybe they just cover it in the Olympics and another network has a contract for other events) or maybe they are more altruistic.All I know is that it was inappropriate for the announcers not to react to the scores and explain why the scores contradicted their analysis (or at least question the results if they did not agree with them).

 

[jaylee]

I don't think that was the case with the Swedish commentators, at any rate. Even after the scores came up they would say things like "I suppose that this means X go that jump ratified" or "that probably means Y got a downgrade on such-and-such".

Ah, okay. Were they on-site at the Olympics? Because Chris Howarth, Robin Cousins, Johnny Weir, Tara Lipinski, etc could all see protocols, but not the final score, before scores were posted. They repeatedly made reference to them.

 

[hanca]

Hi Guys.
New to the forum here. And I’ve been dying to ask some questions, and many of you know really know your stuff. So here I go.

4) Brian Orser. Did Brian Orser back Yuna in any way after the Sochi game? I mean the reason why he is well known is merely because of Yuna. I feel like in a way Brian owes her his support as to why things are going right now.

6) How is Adelina taking this. I assume that she knows deeply in heart that she does not deserve this. I can understand that she lived the moment and could have been just the fact that she was the champion, but I’m pretty sure there was also a big punch in her heart, knowing that she is the champion and Yuna below her. I hear that she is not going to the worlds and doing shows instead. This is probably the best for her because she knows she will not even finish on the podium, but seriously, it’s sooner or later that things will turn and she will have to come clean at least in interviews as time comes. I just felt that it was pathetic of her to think that she deserves the gold and wants to win every golds out there. Child please. I hope she just mans up and tell how she really feels because that’s all it takes.

7) Russia. How are Russians taking this after seeing how it has become a big controversy. I don’t want to be rude, but there has got to be plenty of people who disagree with the results. However, I never see any Russian articles small or big, talking about the controversy and getting honest answers from people and experts. It just have less respect as a nation itself and the people in it. It is a shame. Also, I just didn’t like the Russian coaches and even the one who coached Mao. They just seem very superficial and cold.

10) What are your opinions with the future of this controversy. I surely don’t want this to die down, but I can see where Yuna comes from. I guess this whole thing has actually got her even more famous because simply Russia played dirty trick with the wrong person. I am glad that people are going through this with her, and god knows what she had to go through by herself.

Sorry for the rant guys, but I hope to get some of these questions answered by you. It’s just sickening that things like this are happening currently. Speaking of which, what’s the average IQ for people of the Soviet Countries? I think the judges made fools out of themselves.

Here you go:

4) Brian Orser had a life before Yuna and will continue having one after Yuna. He doesn't owe her anything.

6) Adelina is loving it, as is her country.

10) It will die an honorable death.

One can't speak with confidence about IQs of countries, only of individuals. In that vein, I am confident that my IQ, for instance, trumps yours.

Well, now my turn!

4. Brian Orser: Why should Brian Orser back Yuna in any way after the Sochi game after how she behaved to him? I disagree that the reason why he is well known is merely because of Yuna. I don't know if you noticed, but he has two silver medals from Olympics and six medals from worlds. He is past world champion, so I think we can agree that he was well known even before Yuna and would be known even without Yuna. I definitely don't I feel that Brian owes her anything. He did his job, got paid and that's all to it. They had business relationship, the relationship now finished and neither of them owes the other one anything.

6. How is Adelina taking this? Why should she be taking it anyhow badly? She hasn't done anything wrong. She skated her lights out, outskated the whole field and that's all that is there to it.

7. Congratulation. Now you are trying to offend the whole nation only because their skater won Olympics. So let me get this straight. If there is one person within your country that does something I don't like, it gives me right to start talking about your whole country as full of people who are superficial and cold? Charming!


10. The future of this controversy? Let me see. what happened when Patrick got his last two gold medals at worlds? Bit controversy, huge outcry, petitions...and then people got bored. What do you think will happen?

And in regards to the IQ, I am pretty sure that Russian have the same average IQ like any other nationality. However, your post make me question your IQ! Your post seem to be a bit racist. Not really acceptable.

 

[Anna K.]

10) What are your opinions with the future of this controversy. I surely don’t want this to die down, but I can see where Yuna comes from. I guess this whole thing has actually got her even more famous because simply Russia played dirty trick with the wrong person. I am glad that people are going through this with her, and god knows what she had to go through by herself.

10) It will die an honorable death.

Well, the controversy about the winner of WC 1986 in soccer never died
This one is just about figure skating of so you better tell me how long these last. For me, I’m already preparing for the first 1000 pages of this thread (unless the WC in soccer brings some more engaging scandals this summer and I leave to follow them, of course)

 

[hanca]

Well, the controversy about the winner of WC 1986 in soccer never died
This one is just about figure skating of so you better tell me how long these last. For me, I’m already preparing for the first 1000 pages of this thread (unless the WC in soccer brings some more engaging scandals this summer and I leave to follow them, of course)

The question is, whether someone outside this forum actually cares about somewhere on forum being some 1000 pages of complaints about old results.

 

[Rubirosa]

Using your logic of giving more credit to base value and NOT to GOE & PCS

It's not arrogant to challenge and fail. It's sport. Mistakes happened, failures happened. It's arrogant to come with easy program and hope that you can win for name. What if other skaters don't make mistakes? Then their GOE and PCS should be low and Yuna's upper to do the math? It's good that this philosophy failed. You can live in denial but it's your problem. I am the one who is celebrating.

 

[LRK]

Ah, okay. Were they on-site at the Olympics? Because Chris Howarth, Robin Cousins, Johnny Weir, Tara Lipinski, etc could all see protocols, but not the final score, before scores were posted. They repeatedly made reference to them.

Yes, they were. I found their remarks sometmes puzzling as to what they could or couldn't see, though - sometimes it sounded as if they did know, sometimes not. They would mostly discuss what they thought looked iffy, and what they thought the judges might look at.

 

[cooper]

It's not arrogant to challenge and fail. It's sport. Mistakes happened, failures happened. It's arrogant to come with easy program and hope that you can win for name. What if other skaters don't make mistakes? Then their GOE and PCS should be low and Yuna's upper to do the math? It's good that this philosophy failed. You can live in denial but it's your problem. I am the one who is celebrating.

why are you celebrating?? you're favorite skater didn't win.. and yuna has STILL her ogm which you're favorite skater does not have..

and i doubt adelina is your favorite skater..

 

[jaylee]

It's not arrogant to challenge and fail. It's sport. Mistakes happened, failures happened. It's arrogant to come with easy program and hope that you can win for name. What if other skaters don't make mistakes? Then their GOE and PCS should be low and Yuna's upper to do the math? It's good that this philosophy failed. You can live in denial but it's your problem. I am the one who is celebrating.

PCS saved Mao Asada from the humiliation of not qualifying for the FS. In the SP, her base value was lower than almost every other skater who qualified. Her TES was lower than every other skater who qualified.

Base value, GOE, and PCS all matter to all skaters. Accept it. There was no philosophy of "winning for name" and no philosophy of depending just on GOE and PCS.

 

[Mrs. P]

It's not arrogant to challenge and fail. It's sport. Mistakes happened, failures happened. It's arrogant to come with easy program and hope that you can win for name. What if other skaters don't make mistakes? Then their GOE and PCS should be low and Yuna's upper to do the math? It's good that this philosophy failed. You can live in denial but it's your problem. I am the one who is celebrating.

Yuna is not the only skater to try to gain points through quality, i.e.GOE. I don't think it is arrogant to strategize your programs.

 

[jaylee]

Yes, they were. I found their remarks sometmes puzzling as to what they could or couldn't see, though - sometimes it sounded as if they did know, sometimes not. They would mostly discuss what they thought looked iffy, and what they thought the judges might look at.

Thanks for the clarification. Well, the protocols were clearly available to other commentators, so either they didn't have that access, or they weren't using them consistently.