The Judging Controversy Thread

[Ven]

Only 4 of her +3 were for jumps. Her spins are amazing. This is more irresponsible journalism. +3's are a lot rare for jumps than for spins.

Traveling spins do not deserve +3, no matter how well the rest is done.

 

[kslr0816]

Keep posting on here. Send messages to skating writers. Hersh, Brennan, Armour, anyone else you know. Probably the best thing would be a full scale expose like CNNSI did with Barry Bonds or Lance Armstrong.

I wonder if we could contact any writers at Sports Illustrated?

Someone (who knows more than I do) should start compiling data, links, threads, articles, scores, inconsistencies, and scoot them over to some of the more major media streams. Actually the Wire's two big articles on the matter do a pretty damn good job summarizing how things went. It's just a matter of whether or not people (namely, people in the US) care enough to listen, enough to do something, enough to ruffle feathers and enough to put figure skating at risk. It's hard to put that much into it if you don't have a horse in the race (i.e., USA)

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Keep posting on here. Send messages to skating writers. Hersh, Brennan, Armour, anyone else you know. Probably the best thing would be a full scale expose like CNNSI did with Barry Bonds or Lance Armstrong.

I wonder if we could contact any writers at Sports Illustrated?

I posted this on another thread and I'd like your thoughts:
Here's the thing. I look at the protocols (http://www.isuresults.com/results/ow..._FS_Scores.pdf) and what I see is:
1) One judge REALLY loved Adelina (judge in her column 7), but ALL the rest scored her very high. Even her two lowest scoring judges in columns 3 and 8 gave her mostly +2 GOE for her technical elements. In fact, only one judge, column 8, gave her more than 3 marks below +2.
2) Two judges (columns 3 and 6) REALLY loved Yuna but the rest gave her plenty of marks <+2 GOE on the elements.

Why I'm not convinced that anything fishy was going on is because it appears 7 of the judges did not mark Yuna generously, while 7 marked Adelina very generously. I cannot list 7 judges on that panel all of whom I would believe have a bias towards Adelina for any reason other than she skated better. At most 2 or 3 but not 7.

I wish the focus would be on the marks rather than about whom she hugged after the event.

 

[Anna K.]

I wish the focus would be on the marks rather than about whom she hugged after the event.

Me too, meaning I wish Alla Shekhovtsova wasn't there as a judge.

 

[Kinga]

The answer is NO. Figure skating should be at the olympics. Period.

I'm sorry but I find all of this a mere overreaction.
There is no perfect sport. Once in a while there might be things happening that we don't agree or didn't like. It's part of it.
If everytime a dubious penalty kick is signed by a referee in a soccer match the fans claim there shoudn't be the Euro Cup, the World Cup or the Champions League...

YES!!

Obviously no!! There must be a most intelligent solution!

Instead of tearing this sport down I wish we could build it up!! There is room for improvement and growth. Is it too soon to start looking for positive solutions? I would say no.

:agree:

 

[sk8in]

I posted this on another thread and I'd like your thoughts:
Here's the thing. I look at the protocols (http://www.isuresults.com/results/ow..._FS_Scores.pdf) and what I see is:
1) One judge REALLY loved Adelina (judge in her column 7), but ALL the rest scored her very high. Even her two lowest scoring judges in columns 3 and 8 gave her mostly +2 GOE for her technical elements. In fact, only one judge, column 8, gave her more than 3 marks below +2.
2) Two judges (columns 3 and 6) REALLY loved Yuna but the rest gave her plenty of marks <+2 GOE on the elements.

Why I'm not convinced that anything fishy was going on is because it appears 7 of the judges did not mark Yuna generously, while 7 marked Adelina very generously. I cannot list 7 judges on that panel all of whom I would believe have a bias towards Adelina for any reason other than she skated better. At most 2 or 3 but not 7.

I wish the focus would be on the marks rather than about whom she hugged after the event.

The focus should be first on whether or not the judges were correct in their assessment of her skating. It seems that there is a very strong case to be made that they were not correct. The WHY they were correct or incorrect comes next. Their motive comes third.

 

[leafygreens]

I wish the focus would be on the marks rather than about whom she hugged after the event.

The marks are because of who she hugged after the event. It's all relevant.

The tech caller is also Russian which would explain the high levels for Sot but no one else.

The focus should be first on whether or not the judges were correct in their assessment of her skating. It seems that there is a very strong case to be made that they were not correct. The WHY they were correct or incorrect comes next. Their motive comes third.

I agree. It doesn't matter if the remaining judges were bloc or not, it has been proven that the marks were unjustifiable and should not stand.

 

[Lyanpark]

I posted this on another thread and I'd like your thoughts:
Here's the thing. I look at the protocols (http://www.isuresults.com/results/ow..._FS_Scores.pdf) and what I see is:
1) One judge REALLY loved Adelina (judge in her column 7), but ALL the rest scored her very high. Even her two lowest scoring judges in columns 3 and 8 gave her mostly +2 GOE for her technical elements. In fact, only one judge, column 8, gave her more than 3 marks below +2.
2) Two judges (columns 3 and 6) REALLY loved Yuna but the rest gave her plenty of marks <+2 GOE on the elements.

Why I'm not convinced that anything fishy was going on is because it appears 7 of the judges did not mark Yuna generously, while 7 marked Adelina very generously. I cannot list 7 judges on that panel all of whom I would believe have a bias towards Adelina for any reason other than she skated better. At most 2 or 3 but not 7.

I wish the focus would be on the marks rather than about whom she hugged after the event.

I might suggest reading Yuna and Adelina Sotnikova's statistic data in LP.

It does not have any proof but tells me there might be 4 judges who mess with PCS and GOE.

http://blog.daum.net/sadprince57

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It seems that there is a very strong case to be made that they were not correct. The WHY they were correct or incorrect comes next. Their motive comes third.

What is the "very strong case" that 7 of the 9 judges' marks were not correct? Please don't tell me to read 80 pages of whining, I am asking specifically and only about how you think 7 judges' marks are wrong.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It does not have any proof but tells me there might be 4 judges who mess with PCS and GOE.

Seven judges gave her what appear to be winning marks. Furthermore, only one lowballed Yuna.

 

[kslr0816]

again to daisy's point though -

what if it is not a conspiracy setup by 1-2 judges and whomever, but just a general lean towards sotnikova (which is not illegal by any means). though, as we've found, it's not just the judging but the tech calling that is also suspect

 

[Lyanpark]

Seven judges gave her what appear to be winning marks. Furthermore, only one lowballed Yuna.

These are summary of how judges marked Yuna and Sotnikova's LP(B.V+GOE+PCS)

Judges / Yuna /Adelina Sotnikova
1 /134.09 / 141.83

2 /140.39 / 143.13

3 /143.09 / 145.33

4 /144.09 / 145.63

5 /144.69 / 151.13

6 /144.79 / 151.53

7 /145.79 / 153.93

8 /149.49 / 154.03

9 /151.79 / 155.73

Exclusion of “biased” 4 /147.31 /145.41

 

[kslr0816]

These are summary of how judges marked Yuna and Sotnikova's LP(B.V+GOE+PCS)

Judges / Yuna /Adelina Sotnikova
1 134.09 / 141.83

2 140.39 / 143.13

3 143.09 / 145.33

4 144.09 / 145.63

5 144.69 / 151.13

6 144.79 / 151.53

7 145.79 / 153.93

8 149.49 / 154.03

9 151.79 155.73

Exclusion of “biased” 4 147.31 145.41

That is a stark contrast as far as Adelina's scores go. I've said before, I don't think Yuna was necessarily underscored per se (save for the SP), just that Adelina was overscored

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

These are summary of how judges marked Yuna and Sotnikova's LP(B.V+GOE+PCS)

Yuna's column 1 is not the same judge as Adelina's. They are all mixed up from skater to skater.

EDIT: I'm not sure what your columns show. That the average of Yuna's 5 highest scores > average of Adelina's lowest 5?

 

[ice coverage]

I am sure that the technology already exists for sensors in the boots that can measure such things as under-rotations, which I think is the main thing that needs to be made more uniform and precise. (I also think that if actual rotations in the air were measured with scientific precision then fans would be surprised to learn how short of rotation virtually all jumps are, counting pre-rotation on the ice and under-rotation on the landing.) Why this isn't done now is because there isn't any money in it for some engineering firm to undertake the task. ...

Remember the University of Delaware professor whose state-of-the-art motion analysis system has been accelerating Team USA's mastery of jumps? IIRC, he has said that he would like to advance the use of his technology to live competition -- in other words, beyond the laboratory of the training rink.

 

[Lyanpark]

That is a stark contrast as far as Adelina's scores go. I've said before, I don't think Yuna was necessarily underscored per se (save for the SP), just that Adelina was overscored

That might be true. I just feel that with seeing this statistics, there were some judges in high favor of Sotnikova.

 

[kslr0816]

Yuna's column 1 is not the same judge as Adelina's. They are all mixed up from skater to skater.

EDIT: I'm not sure what your columns show

i don't think that's what it's saying, just that there is a break up in the data of 4 judges vs the rest

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

i don't think that's what it's saying, just that there is a break up in the data of 4 judges vs the rest

Also it shows 7 judges scored Adelina > 145 and only 3 did so for Yuna.

 

[Lyanpark]

Yuna's column 1 is not the same judge as Adelina's. They are all mixed up from skater to skater.

EDIT: I'm not sure what your columns show

Yes. Judges numbers are random. That summary did not tell the whole statistics.
But when we follow that pattern in PCS and GOE and find a certain logic, we can track down how many numbers of judges were biased.

 

[GypsyFe]

Interesting read was Johnny Weir's commnts - said outcome was correct - that Adelina played the numbers to maximum - included much more of what collected points. And today that is the name of the game.