I think it would be fun to do a "how would you score this" put some links to the scoring documents and see how things turn out.
However I agree with MM that you might want to wait a bit.
The Judging Controversy Thread
- Thread starter Andre Smith
- Start date
I think it would be fun to do a "how would you score this" put some links to the scoring documents and see how things turn out.
However I agree with MM that you might want to wait a bit.
Regarding the Ladies judging panel, Lavernik is chair of the ISU Singles & Pairs Technical Committee and has been for years. He, as well as others on the Technical Committee, create all the rules re international figure skating, hold seminars and testing to secure and/or retain an ISU judging designation. He is also a technical controller/referee. ISU judges are nominated by their respective countries for the judging spots allotted for each country, a draw that was held in Obertsdorf last September. The Russian Figure Skating Federation had a judge in every discipline and nominated Alla Shekhovtseva, (Russian Federation President’s wife) as its Olympic judge for the Ladies event in Sochi. Therefore she was entered into the overall draw for the SP and FS. Russia could have nominated any one of its other dozen or so qualified judges, but didn’t. It is easy to guess why she received this plum assignment. (Shekhovtseva is also an international judge, technical controller and referee in Ice Dance, as well as being on the Ice Dance Technical Committee, but was not named as a judge for Russia in this discipline.)
Yuri Balkov does have a checkered past in judging, but was never restricted altogether from future international judging by the ISU Council. Why the Ukrainian Skating Federation nominated him as an Olympic judge when Ukraine had 7-8 other ISU qualified judges is a question for the Ukrainian Federation. Balkov was then officially added to the list of potential judges in the draw, which is held 30 minutes prior to the specific event.
Because of anonymous judging put into effect after 2002, and the scrambling of judges marks, there is no way to prove conspiracy theories, but the lack of complete information makes it easy to claim a conspiracy by those who disagree with the results.
Clearly ending anonymous judging and the scrambling of marks is something that the ISU must put on the ballot at the next ISU Congress in June.
Yuri Balkov does have a checkered past in judging, but was never restricted altogether from future international judging by the ISU Council. Why the Ukrainian Skating Federation nominated him as an Olympic judge when Ukraine had 7-8 other ISU qualified judges is a question for the Ukrainian Federation. Balkov was then officially added to the list of potential judges in the draw, which is held 30 minutes prior to the specific event.
Because of anonymous judging put into effect after 2002, and the scrambling of judges marks, there is no way to prove conspiracy theories, but the lack of complete information makes it easy to claim a conspiracy by those who disagree with the results.
Clearly ending anonymous judging and the scrambling of marks is something that the ISU must put on the ballot at the next ISU Congress in June.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2010
^ This. The core issue to be redressed.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2014
What country is Kanada? No, Holland in speed skating, Spain in soccer, and U.S in baseketball all earn their medals by performance, so not comparable to Russia in figure skating. Russia "win" most of their medals either through doping, buying off judges, and paying others to immigrate from another country.
Please. Russia and the Soviet Union have produced superb figure skaters over the last 50 years, especially in pairs and ice dance. If you're not familiar w/ them, Google Gordeeva/Grinkov & Mishkutenok/Dmitriev (pairs) and Usova/Zhulin & Klimova/Ponomarenko (ice dance). Check them out on YouTube. It's true that all of these couples are from the 80's-90's, but there is no way in the world that anyone could deny the excellence of their performances.
Russian/Soviet dominance in figure skating has waned since the breakup of the Soviet Union, especially in the last 10 years, but the former Soviet countries have still had their share of fine figure skaters. I will say that I haven't admired their female skaters as much as those in the other disciplines, but otherwise they've got a stellar track record. Aside from the 2002 judging in pairs, I'd find it hard to argue with any of their medals and am hoping that the 2014 Olympics are an aberration.
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2014
What country is Kanada? No, Holland in speed skating, Spain in soccer, and U.S in baseketball all earn their medals by performance, so not comparable to Russia in figure skating. Russia "win" most of their medals either through doping, buying off judges, and paying others to immigrate from another country.
I am afraid talking to you is a waste of time. Think what you want, it's your own internal problem. I don't care about it. Too bad you keep polluting and spamming the forum with your maniacal obsessions.
And as to Kanada you can easily guess it. In most countries, including mine, this is the way it is spelled. If you are offended by the misspell then I apologize. Live with it.
Bye.
They don't want to. They probably all have checkered history. It seems like the entire organization and system is corrupt.
As everyone has seen, they could care less how obvious judge fixing looks or what people think. They simply don't care.
@leafygreens thanks. I tried to lay it down as simply as I could. Glad you enjoyed it. 
@kslr0816 thanks. I wished my coach could write for me. It would be much better.
Also, somebody mentioned something about me saying the face expression factored into the footwork. I said that was part of PC. Yes, it doesn't factor into TES, but it factors into PC, AND should be part of your step sequence when you train for it for any skater worth their money. In fact, face expression should be a part to focus on when you train for any part of your program. Figure skating includes performance as well as technique. And before someone says something about athleticism, figure skating is both art and athleticism, which is why it is so attractive, and I've already stated that it takes a whole lot of athleticism to transform a sport into art.
Another point mentioned is that nobody nitpicked on Yuna's skating. That's because she got 13 or so +3 GOEs, while Adelina got 30+ +3 GOEs. Most of what Yuna did that could be nitpicked on has already been acknowledged by many of the judges in how lower they graded Yuna compared to Adelina. They set Adelina as the highest standard by giving away so many high GOEs. The reason Adelina's skating is being nitpicked, is because all those high GOEs suggest great, or even perfect elements, which doesn't actually reflect in the performance, especially compared to the lower number of GOEs Yuna got, hence the need to point it out: the standard they set for what they considered best executed elements is really not an accurate standard, and not even accurately used either given the lower number of high GOEs from Yuna. Especially when Adelina got higher/equivalent GOEs for element she did in a less textbook way than Yuna (jumps, step sequences among others). And same with Adelina's PCs scores. They suggest that she's only .09 points behind Yuna as the most well polished, interpretative, expressed, put together programme of all time. And all the nitpicking shows it's nowhere close.
You're welcome. I'm not a judge, just a skater, and though the mystery of judging escapes from us at times (and honestly, it's more because of the judging than the rules), I thought some points worth judging too obvious to ignore.
One thing that irritates me is all this bullying around from either side. Name-calling and ad hominem attacks serve no one. And bashing Adelina is certainly NOT COOL. Nobody knows her personally, she's just a girl who has worked her BUTT OFF for this one moment, and showed her personal best on the Olympics night and commendable mental strength and determination. There's nothing but plenty to admire. On the other side, lumping courteous supporters of Yuna as haters because they point out the flaws in adelina's skating (vs. the flaws in Adelina as a person) and argue that such flaws are not deserving of a gold is not reasonable either. Not deserving of gold is not an insult or hundreds of thousand of skaters around the world would feel insulted right now. The whole debate is about skating. Criticizing someone's skating is not equivalent to hating them. Not everybody is a Yuna fan because they support Yuna, and there is no reason to link supporters of Yuna here with nutjobs who are attacking Adelina. And Yuna's "fans" are not Yuna personally. As a supporter of both as skaters, it's truly awful to see this. We don't even know if all of them are actual Yuna fan. From the horrible things I read in the comments sections of sites throughout the years, people throw out vitriolic in every article they can find, no matter how little they are actually emotionally involved in the matter, just for the joy of bashing someone. Go to the Yahoo comment sections and you can see how an astonishingly high number of people in the world makes it a personal joy to attack random things that have nothing to do with them just because they can. Also, just because you support Yuna winning doesn't mean you're a Yuna fan, just a skating fan who sees that something is wrong. I wasn't even a Yuna fan until a couple of days ago and only became so because I started scrutinizing her skating when I saw something was seriously wrong with the scores. I'm sure fans of yuna for years are probably rolling their eyes at me and calling me pseudo fan for being so shallow. lol.
What I find funny is that pro-Yuna's win among the "celebrities" of figure skating all expressed how shock they are, how they think the PCs are not right, how Adelina's skating skill is not match for Yuna, how they expected Yuna's SP score to be higher, how scandalized they are, etc. On the opposite side, the ones who support Adelina's win are much more cautious in their explanation, and much less willing to praise Adelina over Yuna, with the only argument thrown around that she out-jumped Yuna, or out-performed technically by having a higher technical score, rather like a recorded tape no matter what conversation they are actually in. However, all of them must be familiar enough with the system to know that that's a non sequitur, not an argument at all. Basically what they are saying, is that she had higher BV, hence the win, while implying to the general public, and misleading them that that's the same as having higher overall TES. None of them said she jumped BETTER than Yuna, and yet GOE is a huge part of TES, and considering the point gaps, a big part of the points disrepancies, just that she jumped more, hence the 1-2 points in difference in BV. Adelina is a better spinner, and has put in more transitions in, but there are about a bazillion other things she's not better at that is not reflected in the scores, including steps, flow, speed, IN, and even jumps.
She's a higher jumper, but how well a jump is executed includes air position, upper body, flow in and out, distance, etc. And Yuna's jumps, while not perfect in some, is still more textbook than Adelina's in people's eyes. Even the height of her jumps is not that jarringly behind, especially if you watch the rink view of the performances, you can see clearly how they both perform their jumps from a flow/height/power/textbook point of view. Same with steps. And yet, the GOE difference is not reflected well enough. What's more, those who defend Adelina's win on TV are basically saying she won because she had a high score, using the result to defend the result, begging the question, which is absurd. It's like saying, hey, you got a 100 on your test because there's a 100 marked on your test, not because it was graded correctly. What they should have done, is explain WHY she got 149, not that that 149 is bigger than 144. It's all a matter of math all of them say. Yes it is. The problem isn't in the addition, it's in the actual numbers. And the only explanation they come with, is that she outjumped Yuna, which like I said, having higher height is not outjumping anyone, and the additional triple only gave her a 1-2 points advantage in base value overall. The score is made of BV, GOE, and PCs, not just BV. Or you go on the internet, and they show that NY article, which basically makes the same argument of X score is bigger than Y score without explaining the X. Well, aside from putting up a picture that doesn't show anything like edges, or flow in and out, or distance across the ice accurately.
Oh.. i forgot the guts argument. Skating your personal best, and wanting a medal does not result in you deserving the medal or 99% of skaters out there would be champions. Yuna was just as determined in her training. anyone who knows anything about training for figure skating knows that you don't achieve Yuna's level of perfection by being half-assed. You don't show up to the Olympics with a programme that is nuanced in every little detail from the jumps to the movement of her fingers at all time and not care. That attention to detail shows caring in what you do, she just has a different way of showing about it, perhaps because her focus in what she cared about changed from winning the olympics in 2010, to caring about what she can produce as a skater in her programme in 2014. Heck, people works their butt off (literally) and gets injuries and can't even do 1-10th of what she's doing (yes, I'm referring to myself). Just because she didn't express it on the rink (because she was committed to stay in character, a character which happens to be a girl who is more concerned with feeling the moment with the music than focus on wanting a gold medal during the tango, you know, if you can believe that strange strange scenario) doesn't mean she didn't lay her heart out on that rink and skated her best. She stated Adios was a most challenging FP. It didn't have a blazing fire, but then wine might not burn your throat like whisky but it doesn't mean it's any less appreciable or enjoyable if you have a refined taste.
And even putting taste aside, this is a technical sport in that you have to do things as according to what is ideal (right edge, flow, and other bazillion criteria). Interpretation and excitement is all good and all, but shouldn't be that significantly relevant in the outcome if you don't have the technical ability to perfect it. Just like classical music or ballet where everything is rigid and has a "right" way to do everything and every move. You can show up at a classical piano competition and start playing sloppy but in an exciting show off a la rock star way with head banging and all that that gets the crowd behind (even assuming a virtuoso performance doesn't manage to dazzle and touch such audience), but it shouldn't be able to make you win in a competition where doing things in the right way is put first, especially against someone who manages to play the piece in the right way, with a different kind of expressiveness that isn't as appealing to you. Doing rocky stuff is fine if you have the technique to keep up with maintaining the ideal rhythm/nuances/note sound at the same time. If you can't maintain the skill level and polish while being exhuberant, it's not going to get you anywhere in the competition. It might make a good show, assuming that's your taste, but it should not hold up in competition. There are concerts for that (or galas). I'm not saying it's impossible to pull off both at the same time (many would argue Yuna did, but assuming she didn't...), but when you can pull off only one part at the cost of the other part being sloppy, especially when that particular part is the one part that actually is required of you explicitly, with rigid outlines as to what is textbook right, it's no good. "I felt more excited by her performance" should not be major reason why someone won something in figure skating, just like how just because you enjoy a rock concert doesn't mean that artist should win an international award for classical music. How compelling/touching/exciting it is certainly is a factor in judging, and also a matter of taste, but there are other parts to consider. I'm not saying Adelina is unskilled, but she wasn't polished in many parts of her performance. If anyone know Nodame Cantabile, basically, while Nodame is a genius brilliant piano player, but she tends to play sloppily as she wished while not following what was on the score, and never got anywhere. In order for her to finally do successfully at a piano competition, she had to study the scores, and the intention behind the composers, and play as she should as opposed to as however she liked, while still keeping the essence of her music in playing. One is not exclusive of the other, but expressing yourself should not be able to compromise your polish of your playing, or the intention of the music piece, if you have the technical skills to back it up.
According to Yuna, and to how her mask of impassivity and calmness slipped after the performance, she gave her absolute all. Yes, she stated that her motivation for a gold medal isn't as strong. But that doesn't mean she didn't want the medal, or that her motivation for performing the best she can at the olympics is any less of strong motivation and challenge than achieving the olympics gold, especially for an already champion. How many half-assed skaters do you know who can produce 4 clean programs at Worlds and Olympics within less than one year, while skating the very last at the last event of figure skating for both cases? Plus with an impossible score of 149 to beat, a crowd against you, and judges who have already given you lower marks than you expected at the SP, and expectations on you as the defending champion and favourite. And not just clean programs, but among the top 5 scores of all time. If that doesn't show determination, I don't know what does. Hell, Patrick and Hanyu were crazy obsessed about getting the gold at the Olympics, and put their heart out on the ice to the point of collapse at the end of their program and couldn't even get clean programs. Saying that Yuna didn't care or didn't have guts is ridiculous. She just cared more about performing her best than winning the gold (which in her case, should have been the same). And performing your best at the Olympics is definitely not any less worthy of a challenge than winning a gold, considering not many can take it on given all the non-clean programs we've seen. And you don't put in the hardest 3-3 combination there is available for the ladies in your SHORT program (yes, the one where you're supposed to perform as clean as possible) without having guts. Just because she makes it look easy doesn't mean it's easy for her or anyone. Some said Yuna was slow when in fact, the was the fastest on ice among the ladies if you look at the fancam of the rink view. It's just that she made it seem unhurried and to the music and some people confused that for slow and sluggish when her movement was exaxtly to the music. In fact, making one of the highest scoring program ever look easy is probably the hardest you can go in terms of challenge.
Many commentaries pointed out how perfect Yuna's jumping was during the programme, while only saying the Adelina's jumps are huge. I haven't heard a commentator say Adelina's jumps are perfect/textbook like they did for Yuna's with most of her jumps. Huge is only one aspect of jumping, not perfection. Otherwise, my ankles and calves and butt wouldn't have to suffer as much as they do trying to get perfection, and skaters around the world would convert to high jumping for training. Form matters, not just power. And I'm not saying Adelina is a bad jumper, because she's super impressive, but all aspects of jumping considered, she's not perfect by any means. Even Michelle Kwan, who said she get why the math makes Adelina wins, ends up saying later that the problem with this olympics is the judging rather than the system, which implies she disagrees with the judging. For Stojko, he actually picked Yuna, Mao and Denis as his three biggest stars of the Olympics, and said that regardless of what color of medal Yuna had, she couldn't get bigger, and that he wished she had her gold medal. So he's not backtracking on his words, but he sure as hell isn't firm on it either. Todd Eldrigdge also said Yuna should win under the current system.
Skaters like Gracie, Ashley, Denis, Joannie, Evan, etc., while not outright making a standing, all openly acknowledged Yuna as still being the champion, the queen always, in their tweets/interviews afterwards etc. while writing very little if nothing extolling about the actual new champion, which is unusual if you considered how excited all the skaters were when Yuna won. Honestly, the signs are everywhere that's something is off with the judging. And something is off when determine an Olympic champion is the last thing that should happen in the spirits of the Olympics. Being an Olympic champion basically puts you as the epitome of the sport for the next 4 years, the symbol of what needs to be as a figure skater, the standard to reach. And so, when that symbol is murked by something that's off, it's quite disturbing for all of us skaters around the world. We love our sport. And it hurts to see it constantly ruined by controversy after controversy that gets dismissed by not even strong arguments.
As for the people in my club... And it was a circus the day of the competition, with everyone throwing their opinion around (lol), the consensus is Adelina should not have won that by such a margin, and should not have "lost" the SP by a mere few decimals. Everyone except for one person agrees Adelina should not have won at all, and then, it's split between what position she needs to be, with about 80% thinking she should have been bronze, or worse if the scoring was even for both SP and FP. As for who gets 1st for the FP, I'd say it's a split between Yuna and Carolina and Mao with a slight advantage for Mao, and for the podium, Yuna and Carolina, with an advantage for Yuna.
As for the hugging the judge thing... it's definitely not something that screams clean, but skaters do it (Hanyu and Patrick at the olympics for ex). However, Adelina actually hugged 2 judges and got congratulated warmly by 3 (I saw a picture somewhere, 2 female judges, and 1 male hug) and I'm surprised people are so focused on that one wife of the federation while the other 2 hugs didn't get mentioned. I lost the picture I found, when I get the time, I'll go back to the video and find it. 3 judges is a whole lotta, not to mention the shifty tech panel and everything. I'm not saying there is corruption (but let's face it, ISU is corrupted), but there's definitely huge conflict of interest all around in favour of Adelina. Doesn't make what she achieved on the rink any less, but certainly questions her achievements in the score.
@kslr0816 thanks.
I wished my coach could write for me. It would be much better. Also, somebody mentioned something about me saying the face expression factored into the footwork. I said that was part of PC. Yes, it doesn't factor into TES, but it factors into PC, AND should be part of your step sequence when you train for it for any skater worth their money. In fact, face expression should be a part to focus on when you train for any part of your program. Figure skating includes performance as well as technique. And before someone says something about athleticism, figure skating is both art and athleticism, which is why it is so attractive, and I've already stated that it takes a whole lot of athleticism to transform a sport into art.
Another point mentioned is that nobody nitpicked on Yuna's skating. That's because she got 13 or so +3 GOEs, while Adelina got 30+ +3 GOEs. Most of what Yuna did that could be nitpicked on has already been acknowledged by many of the judges in how lower they graded Yuna compared to Adelina. They set Adelina as the highest standard by giving away so many high GOEs. The reason Adelina's skating is being nitpicked, is because all those high GOEs suggest great, or even perfect elements, which doesn't actually reflect in the performance, especially compared to the lower number of GOEs Yuna got, hence the need to point it out: the standard they set for what they considered best executed elements is really not an accurate standard, and not even accurately used either given the lower number of high GOEs from Yuna. Especially when Adelina got higher/equivalent GOEs for element she did in a less textbook way than Yuna (jumps, step sequences among others). And same with Adelina's PCs scores. They suggest that she's only .09 points behind Yuna as the most well polished, interpretative, expressed, put together programme of all time. And all the nitpicking shows it's nowhere close.
You're welcome.
I'm not a judge, just a skater, and though the mystery of judging escapes from us at times (and honestly, it's more because of the judging than the rules), I thought some points worth judging too obvious to ignore.One thing that irritates me is all this bullying around from either side. Name-calling and ad hominem attacks serve no one. And bashing Adelina is certainly NOT COOL. Nobody knows her personally, she's just a girl who has worked her BUTT OFF for this one moment, and showed her personal best on the Olympics night and commendable mental strength and determination. There's nothing but plenty to admire. On the other side, lumping courteous supporters of Yuna as haters because they point out the flaws in adelina's skating (vs. the flaws in Adelina as a person) and argue that such flaws are not deserving of a gold is not reasonable either. Not deserving of gold is not an insult or hundreds of thousand of skaters around the world would feel insulted right now. The whole debate is about skating. Criticizing someone's skating is not equivalent to hating them. Not everybody is a Yuna fan because they support Yuna, and there is no reason to link supporters of Yuna here with nutjobs who are attacking Adelina. And Yuna's "fans" are not Yuna personally. As a supporter of both as skaters, it's truly awful to see this. We don't even know if all of them are actual Yuna fan. From the horrible things I read in the comments sections of sites throughout the years, people throw out vitriolic in every article they can find, no matter how little they are actually emotionally involved in the matter, just for the joy of bashing someone. Go to the Yahoo comment sections and you can see how an astonishingly high number of people in the world makes it a personal joy to attack random things that have nothing to do with them just because they can. Also, just because you support Yuna winning doesn't mean you're a Yuna fan, just a skating fan who sees that something is wrong. I wasn't even a Yuna fan until a couple of days ago and only became so because I started scrutinizing her skating when I saw something was seriously wrong with the scores. I'm sure fans of yuna for years are probably rolling their eyes at me and calling me pseudo fan for being so shallow. lol.
What I find funny is that pro-Yuna's win among the "celebrities" of figure skating all expressed how shock they are, how they think the PCs are not right, how Adelina's skating skill is not match for Yuna, how they expected Yuna's SP score to be higher, how scandalized they are, etc. On the opposite side, the ones who support Adelina's win are much more cautious in their explanation, and much less willing to praise Adelina over Yuna, with the only argument thrown around that she out-jumped Yuna, or out-performed technically by having a higher technical score, rather like a recorded tape no matter what conversation they are actually in. However, all of them must be familiar enough with the system to know that that's a non sequitur, not an argument at all. Basically what they are saying, is that she had higher BV, hence the win, while implying to the general public, and misleading them that that's the same as having higher overall TES. None of them said she jumped BETTER than Yuna, and yet GOE is a huge part of TES, and considering the point gaps, a big part of the points disrepancies, just that she jumped more, hence the 1-2 points in difference in BV. Adelina is a better spinner, and has put in more transitions in, but there are about a bazillion other things she's not better at that is not reflected in the scores, including steps, flow, speed, IN, and even jumps.
She's a higher jumper, but how well a jump is executed includes air position, upper body, flow in and out, distance, etc. And Yuna's jumps, while not perfect in some, is still more textbook than Adelina's in people's eyes. Even the height of her jumps is not that jarringly behind, especially if you watch the rink view of the performances, you can see clearly how they both perform their jumps from a flow/height/power/textbook point of view. Same with steps. And yet, the GOE difference is not reflected well enough. What's more, those who defend Adelina's win on TV are basically saying she won because she had a high score, using the result to defend the result, begging the question, which is absurd. It's like saying, hey, you got a 100 on your test because there's a 100 marked on your test, not because it was graded correctly. What they should have done, is explain WHY she got 149, not that that 149 is bigger than 144. It's all a matter of math all of them say. Yes it is. The problem isn't in the addition, it's in the actual numbers. And the only explanation they come with, is that she outjumped Yuna, which like I said, having higher height is not outjumping anyone, and the additional triple only gave her a 1-2 points advantage in base value overall. The score is made of BV, GOE, and PCs, not just BV. Or you go on the internet, and they show that NY article, which basically makes the same argument of X score is bigger than Y score without explaining the X. Well, aside from putting up a picture that doesn't show anything like edges, or flow in and out, or distance across the ice accurately.
Oh.. i forgot the guts argument. Skating your personal best, and wanting a medal does not result in you deserving the medal or 99% of skaters out there would be champions. Yuna was just as determined in her training. anyone who knows anything about training for figure skating knows that you don't achieve Yuna's level of perfection by being half-assed. You don't show up to the Olympics with a programme that is nuanced in every little detail from the jumps to the movement of her fingers at all time and not care. That attention to detail shows caring in what you do, she just has a different way of showing about it, perhaps because her focus in what she cared about changed from winning the olympics in 2010, to caring about what she can produce as a skater in her programme in 2014. Heck, people works their butt off (literally) and gets injuries and can't even do 1-10th of what she's doing (yes, I'm referring to myself). Just because she didn't express it on the rink (because she was committed to stay in character, a character which happens to be a girl who is more concerned with feeling the moment with the music than focus on wanting a gold medal during the tango, you know, if you can believe that strange strange scenario) doesn't mean she didn't lay her heart out on that rink and skated her best. She stated Adios was a most challenging FP. It didn't have a blazing fire, but then wine might not burn your throat like whisky but it doesn't mean it's any less appreciable or enjoyable if you have a refined taste.
And even putting taste aside, this is a technical sport in that you have to do things as according to what is ideal (right edge, flow, and other bazillion criteria). Interpretation and excitement is all good and all, but shouldn't be that significantly relevant in the outcome if you don't have the technical ability to perfect it. Just like classical music or ballet where everything is rigid and has a "right" way to do everything and every move. You can show up at a classical piano competition and start playing sloppy but in an exciting show off a la rock star way with head banging and all that that gets the crowd behind (even assuming a virtuoso performance doesn't manage to dazzle and touch such audience), but it shouldn't be able to make you win in a competition where doing things in the right way is put first, especially against someone who manages to play the piece in the right way, with a different kind of expressiveness that isn't as appealing to you. Doing rocky stuff is fine if you have the technique to keep up with maintaining the ideal rhythm/nuances/note sound at the same time. If you can't maintain the skill level and polish while being exhuberant, it's not going to get you anywhere in the competition. It might make a good show, assuming that's your taste, but it should not hold up in competition. There are concerts for that (or galas). I'm not saying it's impossible to pull off both at the same time (many would argue Yuna did, but assuming she didn't...), but when you can pull off only one part at the cost of the other part being sloppy, especially when that particular part is the one part that actually is required of you explicitly, with rigid outlines as to what is textbook right, it's no good. "I felt more excited by her performance" should not be major reason why someone won something in figure skating, just like how just because you enjoy a rock concert doesn't mean that artist should win an international award for classical music. How compelling/touching/exciting it is certainly is a factor in judging, and also a matter of taste, but there are other parts to consider. I'm not saying Adelina is unskilled, but she wasn't polished in many parts of her performance. If anyone know Nodame Cantabile, basically, while Nodame is a genius brilliant piano player, but she tends to play sloppily as she wished while not following what was on the score, and never got anywhere. In order for her to finally do successfully at a piano competition, she had to study the scores, and the intention behind the composers, and play as she should as opposed to as however she liked, while still keeping the essence of her music in playing. One is not exclusive of the other, but expressing yourself should not be able to compromise your polish of your playing, or the intention of the music piece, if you have the technical skills to back it up.
According to Yuna, and to how her mask of impassivity and calmness slipped after the performance, she gave her absolute all. Yes, she stated that her motivation for a gold medal isn't as strong. But that doesn't mean she didn't want the medal, or that her motivation for performing the best she can at the olympics is any less of strong motivation and challenge than achieving the olympics gold, especially for an already champion. How many half-assed skaters do you know who can produce 4 clean programs at Worlds and Olympics within less than one year, while skating the very last at the last event of figure skating for both cases? Plus with an impossible score of 149 to beat, a crowd against you, and judges who have already given you lower marks than you expected at the SP, and expectations on you as the defending champion and favourite. And not just clean programs, but among the top 5 scores of all time. If that doesn't show determination, I don't know what does. Hell, Patrick and Hanyu were crazy obsessed about getting the gold at the Olympics, and put their heart out on the ice to the point of collapse at the end of their program and couldn't even get clean programs. Saying that Yuna didn't care or didn't have guts is ridiculous. She just cared more about performing her best than winning the gold (which in her case, should have been the same). And performing your best at the Olympics is definitely not any less worthy of a challenge than winning a gold, considering not many can take it on given all the non-clean programs we've seen. And you don't put in the hardest 3-3 combination there is available for the ladies in your SHORT program (yes, the one where you're supposed to perform as clean as possible) without having guts. Just because she makes it look easy doesn't mean it's easy for her or anyone. Some said Yuna was slow when in fact, the was the fastest on ice among the ladies if you look at the fancam of the rink view. It's just that she made it seem unhurried and to the music and some people confused that for slow and sluggish when her movement was exaxtly to the music. In fact, making one of the highest scoring program ever look easy is probably the hardest you can go in terms of challenge.
Many commentaries pointed out how perfect Yuna's jumping was during the programme, while only saying the Adelina's jumps are huge. I haven't heard a commentator say Adelina's jumps are perfect/textbook like they did for Yuna's with most of her jumps. Huge is only one aspect of jumping, not perfection. Otherwise, my ankles and calves and butt wouldn't have to suffer as much as they do trying to get perfection, and skaters around the world would convert to high jumping for training. Form matters, not just power. And I'm not saying Adelina is a bad jumper, because she's super impressive, but all aspects of jumping considered, she's not perfect by any means. Even Michelle Kwan, who said she get why the math makes Adelina wins, ends up saying later that the problem with this olympics is the judging rather than the system, which implies she disagrees with the judging. For Stojko, he actually picked Yuna, Mao and Denis as his three biggest stars of the Olympics, and said that regardless of what color of medal Yuna had, she couldn't get bigger, and that he wished she had her gold medal. So he's not backtracking on his words, but he sure as hell isn't firm on it either. Todd Eldrigdge also said Yuna should win under the current system.
Skaters like Gracie, Ashley, Denis, Joannie, Evan, etc., while not outright making a standing, all openly acknowledged Yuna as still being the champion, the queen always, in their tweets/interviews afterwards etc. while writing very little if nothing extolling about the actual new champion, which is unusual if you considered how excited all the skaters were when Yuna won. Honestly, the signs are everywhere that's something is off with the judging. And something is off when determine an Olympic champion is the last thing that should happen in the spirits of the Olympics. Being an Olympic champion basically puts you as the epitome of the sport for the next 4 years, the symbol of what needs to be as a figure skater, the standard to reach. And so, when that symbol is murked by something that's off, it's quite disturbing for all of us skaters around the world. We love our sport. And it hurts to see it constantly ruined by controversy after controversy that gets dismissed by not even strong arguments.
As for the people in my club... And it was a circus the day of the competition, with everyone throwing their opinion around (lol), the consensus is Adelina should not have won that by such a margin, and should not have "lost" the SP by a mere few decimals. Everyone except for one person agrees Adelina should not have won at all, and then, it's split between what position she needs to be, with about 80% thinking she should have been bronze, or worse if the scoring was even for both SP and FP. As for who gets 1st for the FP, I'd say it's a split between Yuna and Carolina and Mao with a slight advantage for Mao, and for the podium, Yuna and Carolina, with an advantage for Yuna.
As for the hugging the judge thing... it's definitely not something that screams clean, but skaters do it (Hanyu and Patrick at the olympics for ex). However, Adelina actually hugged 2 judges and got congratulated warmly by 3 (I saw a picture somewhere, 2 female judges, and 1 male hug) and I'm surprised people are so focused on that one wife of the federation while the other 2 hugs didn't get mentioned. I lost the picture I found, when I get the time, I'll go back to the video and find it. 3 judges is a whole lotta, not to mention the shifty tech panel and everything. I'm not saying there is corruption (but let's face it, ISU is corrupted), but there's definitely huge conflict of interest all around in favour of Adelina. Doesn't make what she achieved on the rink any less, but certainly questions her achievements in the score.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
Gracie was also in the mid 130's with a fall. Yulia actually fell once but had another step out in the LP.
I agree that the Soviet Union (and East Germany) had excellent athletes. Post-Soviet Russia has been, however, inconsistent at best. And really, in judged sport, a panel that include Slovakia-Russia-Ukraine-Estonia personnel should be avoided.
Yep, curiously high scores for the Russians and the American. More circumstantial support to Le'Equipe's report.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2014
You're right about the inconsistency; maybe I was generalizing too much but just got very frustrated w/ the poster who implied that some of those medals had been bought (and I'm an American who's old enough to remember the Cold War!). Totally agree that an Eastern Bloc panel should be avoided. Personally, I think that any country that has a skater in the final group of skaters shouldn't be permitted to judge or sit on the tech panel, either. But is that do-able?
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2014
Theoretically speaking, what do you think would happen if anyone here said "the Asian Bloc should be avoided"? Do you think it would be PC? That would sound like a ban, wouldn't it?
But picking on Eastern Bloc is easy, because it's not considered anti-PC, right?
Fun to re-read the universal disgust at the judging in the Ladies Free Skate thread, starting on page 70:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?49008-2014-Olympics-Ladies-Free-Skate/page70
Almost without exception, posters reacted with disgust, shock, outrage, etc. towards the judging. Even long-time posters, non-Yuna and Caro fans, it was across the board. Not only on GS, but other skating forums, other sports forums, social media, another site, everywhere nearly all people immediately saw with their own eyes the rigged judging was taking place, starting with Julia's score and progressing from there.
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?49008-2014-Olympics-Ladies-Free-Skate/page70
Almost without exception, posters reacted with disgust, shock, outrage, etc. towards the judging. Even long-time posters, non-Yuna and Caro fans, it was across the board. Not only on GS, but other skating forums, other sports forums, social media, another site, everywhere nearly all people immediately saw with their own eyes the rigged judging was taking place, starting with Julia's score and progressing from there.
@ladyepheu: Thank you so much for yet another wonderful post. You are truly appreciated.
Just one thing - the NYT article is also misleading in that they compare different jumps in the pictures. I believe it pictured Adelina's 2A and Yuna's 3S as comparison and people who know the difference of Axel and Salchow are dumbfounded for that nonsensical comparison.
Thankfully, unlike the past competitions, today we have unlimited supply of videos. Over time, the performances of the night will be out and learned by skating fans of generations. And the history will see this for what it is. (not that I don't see it right now)
Just one thing - the NYT article is also misleading in that they compare different jumps in the pictures. I believe it pictured Adelina's 2A and Yuna's 3S as comparison and people who know the difference of Axel and Salchow are dumbfounded for that nonsensical comparison.
Thankfully, unlike the past competitions, today we have unlimited supply of videos. Over time, the performances of the night will be out and learned by skating fans of generations. And the history will see this for what it is. (not that I don't see it right now)
I don't know which Asian countries you have in mind, but if I recall my history classes they were not under the banner of a same national flag.
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2014
The same applies to "Eastern Bloc". We are very different countries. If your history classes said otherwise you took wrong education.
