totally agree.
The Judging Controversy Thread
- Thread starter Andre Smith
- Start date
totally agree.
I still do not understand how changing the judging system can improve this. Nothing has changed since the implementation of the new system as each judge still votes according to his/her preference or bias. Every single one of them. And the previous transparency and ordinals did not stop them from showing that bias.
That's why I actually find the judging at this event particularly fascinating as it appears that the judges in both SP and FS were almost unanimous in putting the top three skaters close to each other in their scores. Usually you see much bigger divide based on where each judge comes from, particularly in PCS and GOEs.
don't fret south korea has Olympics in 4 years. yuna can unretired and come back and win.
or one of the other south korea ladies can get a bump.
it is figure skating and why do you think the federations want to win the place where the Olympics. or world are at to give their skaters/or atheletes a bump/edge when it come to the competition.
been going on for years in the (Olympics) part of politicking.
like I said earlier. yuna skated in free to defend. adelina fought to win. adelina did harder jumps and combo yuna did easier.
98 michelle did 7 jumps but (easier) better artistic,higher jumps,
tara did 5 jumps but harder combination. came right out and said wasn't going to look for errors.
tara skated like enjoyed it and faster than michelle not as artistic but she won.
politics.
all they did was make south Koreans mad about sport.and other ones as well.
the other gold medalist was politick for when won. do know how to win. and why.
judges should come right out and explain how/why adelina won.
or one of the other south korea ladies can get a bump.
it is figure skating and why do you think the federations want to win the place where the Olympics. or world are at to give their skaters/or atheletes a bump/edge when it come to the competition.
been going on for years in the (Olympics) part of politicking.
like I said earlier. yuna skated in free to defend. adelina fought to win. adelina did harder jumps and combo yuna did easier.
98 michelle did 7 jumps but (easier) better artistic,higher jumps,
tara did 5 jumps but harder combination. came right out and said wasn't going to look for errors.
tara skated like enjoyed it and faster than michelle not as artistic but she won.
politics.
all they did was make south Koreans mad about sport.and other ones as well.
the other gold medalist was politick for when won. do know how to win. and why.
judges should come right out and explain how/why adelina won.
one, i can barely read that. lol. two, i don't think that's anything new. when i say evidence of conspiracy i mean like what we've seen - hugging judges, stacked tech panel, etc. i don't think there's a way to uncover any real proof (i.e., texts/e-mails).
it politics. all did was make south Koreans mad.
adelina had harder jumps and skated to win.(it looked better.) I don't think she can skate better
yuna had easier and skated to defend.(yuna can & has)
98 michelle did 7 jumps but easier, skated to defend (michelle could and did)
tara did 5 jumps but harder combinations and skated to win. (it looked better)tara never skated better
2002 sarah only one who skated clean. no mistake
michelle and Irina had visible mistakes
adelina had harder jumps and skated to win.(it looked better.) I don't think she can skate better
yuna had easier and skated to defend.(yuna can & has)
98 michelle did 7 jumps but easier, skated to defend (michelle could and did)
tara did 5 jumps but harder combinations and skated to win. (it looked better)tara never skated better
2002 sarah only one who skated clean. no mistake
michelle and Irina had visible mistakes
exactly. it doesn't exactly save them from controversy, but it does make it a lot easier for them to not have to do anything. however, they still have to endure the talk, like they are now. ultimately then, what it does is, instead of this being explained, through judges' explanation of scoring, or by uncovering a scandal, people just have to make their own judgments - the majority of the non-skating, non-GS crowd simplifying it to an assumption of, Russians cheated.
Mathman: A suggestion for you. Could you calculate the total (TES + PCS) FS score for each of the 9 jiudges given to Yuna, by judge number, and the same for Sot? I think it would be illuminating for many of us. I am not sure I could do it not understanding the factors, etc; but I am sure a Mathman could do it! It looks like Yuki has done some of those calculations, but I would like to see a more complete picture.
while this is the standard media propaganda explanation of results, when you start looking at the details of how things were scored, namely PCS & GOE, you see that something is amiss. there's a great step sequence thread (http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?49533-Evaluating-Step-Sequences) that breaks down at least one portion of the gross scoring inflation that went on here. it's not a simple matter of, harder jumps & skated to win vs easier program & skating "defensively," which I'm assuming means conservatively.
the fact that there even needs to be an explanation shows it doesn't sit right with the general population that watched the event.
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2010
I'm not making excuses, I'm just correcting Yuki90's history.
She says "It's new history in figure skating that a skater who had not just one title suddenly won OGM at her own country."
We can argue about what "one title" refers to. If it means ISU senior championships, then it's true that neither Hughes nor Sotnikova has won one. As far as senior ISU championship titles go, they're equal.
If it means any senior event, or any international event . . . well, Hughes won one Grand Prix title, one senior B, and a junior national title. Sotnikova won one senior B title, one junior world title, and four national senior titles. On gold medals alone, national and international, junior and senior, Sotnikova comes out far ahead.
If we factor in other colors of medals, who else was competing, how many mistakes they each made, etc., then it gets more complicated. But that's not what yuki90 said. She just said "titles." My simple interpretation was that "title" meant ISU senior championship titles.
Sotnikova hasn't won any (yet?), except for the Olympics. Same for Hughes.
As for the other part of the question, did anyone win suddenly win OGM in her home country, well, as a matter of fact, Hughes's title was won in her own country.
So just answering the question as asked, NO, Sotnikova was not the first without prior titles to suddenly win OGM in her home country. Therefore that distinction by itself does nothing one way or the other to invalidate the result. Why even bring it up?
yuki90 is also completely incorrect about the way scores are currently displayed on the protocols. It is true that originally starting with the 2003 Grand Prix that all the judges' columns were kept in the same order on the protocols -- the first column on the protocols wouldn't be judge #1 from the list of judges, but it would be the same judge all the way down the page.
That changed several years ago. It is no longer true. My understanding is that it was too easy for anyone -- especially federations that wanted to pressure judges and check whether the judges did as instructed -- to figure out who gave what set of scores. So they started scrambling them.
I can't remember exactly when that changed. It might have been the 2010-11 season. In which case I can understand why Yuna Kim fans inclined to search for conspiracy theories might not know about the change, if the last time they were searching the rules were different.
This could be possible at small competitions like Grand Prixs, or at Europeans and Four Continents where only half the federations are allowed to participate so experienced judges would be available from the other continental group.
It would be completely impossible in the short programs at championships like Worlds and Junior Worlds, where every ISU federation is allowed to send at least one entry.
Unless you disqualified all judges who come from countries that actually have skating programs and are members of the ISU:
That could lead to a panel of very unqualified judges. They would all essentially be from South America, Africa, and the Middle East. Although it would be funny to have an Olympic FS judge from a country without a single ice rink
Never going to happen.
Part of the problem -- going all the way back to the beginning of ISU competition at the turn of the 19th-20th century -- is that both skaters and officials come to international events representing their federations.
And, also, the most knowledgeable, most experienced judges will be those from strong skating programs that are most likely to produce medal contenders, barring a few exceptions like Denis Ten and Yuna Kim (but the Korean association is growing and should have more experienced judges soon, right?).
Could international competition be completely restructured in such a way that skaters skate for themselves and judges judge for the ISU with no loyalty to national federations?
Yup. And who you're rooting for going into the event -- because of nationality, because of style preference, because of familiarity with a skater's past career and struggles toward the big event -- is going to affect the story you want to follow. Especially in the school figures era, Olympic gold tended to be the culmination of a successfully built-up career, so fans and media looked to the pre-event favorites, often long-time rivals, to follow which one would win.
As figures were eliminated, jumps became more important, and skaters from more countries entered the medal mix, it became more common for the story of how the Olympics actually unfolded to have little to do with the narratives that media tried to shape in advance.
Not really.
In 2014, the point spread for the top three ladies' short programs was 0.80.
In 2006, the top three ladies were within 0.71 points of each other after the short program.
http://winter-olympic-memories.com/html/results/jp_3d/20_torino/20_figure/20_figure_w.htm
In 2010, the top three men after the short program were only 0.60 apart.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/SEG001.HTM
Those are just examples from the three Olympics so far that have used IJS. If you look at all IJS competitions over the past decade, you'll find plenty more examples.
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2007
I know someone who has everyone's texts and emails.
This is captured images of YuNa and Sotnikova's score table from figure skating blogger.
YuNa's score from each of 9 judges.
http://imgur.com/ehIWOMU
Sotnikova's
http://imgur.com/QlSWmnO
YuNa vs. Sotnikova
http://imgur.com/XqXnps5
YuNa's score from each of 9 judges.
http://imgur.com/ehIWOMU
Sotnikova's
http://imgur.com/QlSWmnO
YuNa vs. Sotnikova
http://imgur.com/XqXnps5
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
These are just the scores in ascending order. And it shows that if you removed Yuna's lowest 4 scores and Adelina's highest 4, Yuna would win. I'm not sure what that is intended to show.
- Joined
- May 19, 2011
No one wants to sift through raw data. Can you please explain what you're trying to illustrate with these?
This is the stupidest and the most ridiculous statistical presentation I have ever seen. Why stop at 4 judges. Remove all of them while you at that.
Thanks Yuki. So Sot received five scores over 150, which would be a world record score, despite a UR and an improper edge not called by the Russian controller. Yuna, despite a clean skate, gets only one score over 150, and gets a score of 134 from one judge. That is as convincing circumstantial evidence as you are going to get of a conspiracy.
Sarah never won gold at such competitions, but she did win a bronze at worlds 2001 and the GPF the same year.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
All the judges gave Adelina "ridiculous" PCS and GOE. I'm not sure how scoring Adelina 151 is honest but 155 is scandalous. Five judges scored her 151+.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
Adelina, Caro, and Yuna were the last three winners of the (apparently) prestigious GoldenSpin of Zagreb.
