The Judging Controversy Thread

[gkelly]

Adelina had arguably the most intricate program in the entire field. Each of her jump entrances were more difficult, as in fewer crossovers and more turns in both directions, than either Caro or Yuna. As an example, Yuna did six crossovers prior to her lutz, whereas Adelina did only two but gained speed through other steps. A second would be their triple flips: look at how many steps Yuna and Adelina do before the jump, and how Adelina's more closely precede the jump. These things may not matter to you, and they might not look as clean and smooth, but they are more difficult and not at all indicative of "junior" skating. That Caroline Zhang does just crossovers and is much slower than Adelina shows how much work she has put into generate speed from moves other than basic stroking.

Also Sotnikova had a whole section in the middle of the program (after the flying camel) where she was executing skating content such as illusion, loop, a spiral and a brief Ina Bauer IIRC, etc., not as part of an element or directly connected to an element -- just extra skating. I honestly first thought that was her choreo sequence (couldn't be -- she hadn't done the step sequence yet) or her step sequence the first time I watched it. Then I watched again and realized she had a more typical step sequence later in the program right before the choreo sequence.

I'm sure that part of the reason for that section was to delay the next jump into the second-half-bonus period. But it also served to showcase additional skills outside the prescribed elements and as such would contribute to the transitions score.

What's more striking about these composite shots than the amount of area being covered, it's that Yuna's lines (paths) are clear and purposeful. Adelina's are almost random and hard to make out. There's no pattern to the choreography.

Don't forget that Adelina's shot is taken at an angle more favorable to her than Yuna's.

Or perhaps vice versa .

Very interesting images. I haven't seen such representations before. How are they generated? Automatically taking a screen shot every X seconds, so there should be an identical number of images of each skater if the length of the program is the same? Or is more human intervention involved?

 

[b-man]

Judge judges events, Who are judging the judges?

The fact is as long as there are anonymity, ISU can easily manipulate any outcome without breaking any rules. They have all the information, they have all the power. Just place judges who has a history of awarding certain skaters high marks, certain style preferences, music tastes or national / political affiliation and biases, theoretically it can swing results to determine and improve the percentage of winning per particular skater per each competition. Even if it the judges are randomized, say draw 9 out of a list of 18, they can still ensure the 18 listed have a track history that befit their agenda. Is it any wonder 2 of the replacement judges at this Ladies FreeSkate also happened to be on the same panel as European Championship where the Russian skaters received wildly inflated PCS? The 3rd judge judged Adelina at 2012 worlds, and the 4th judge the Ukraine judge has a shady past that should have seen him banned for life, instead he get to take part at another most controversial Olympics of all time. He was banned for a year at Nagano, he judged at Salt lake ice dance, and now Sochi ladies. Yet ISU don't seem to care.


How convenient then all of a sudden to ignore all her other superior qualities. The fact there are hardly a gap between the 2 skaters in every thing else include GOEs and PCS indicate the marks are not done correctly. The system absolutely failed when we have Putin'mates running the asylum. Yes, COP died at this competition on the biggest night of 4 years in ladies free skate. It died even the reason it had been born was out of the necessity to be more objective and impartial to minimize subjectivity - to be less vulnerable to abuse. Yet at this competition, it seems deliberately maximized subjectivity by putting together a panel where subjectivity gains maximum reward beyond all reason, all objectivity according to sporting history particular the PCS corridor of judging.

To summarize. At this Olympics, a visibly flawed performance of an inferior Junior program managed to beat 3 world champions all put out practically flawless career best FS with superior programs, yet the 9th ranked WC skater from last worlds with no major international medals to spoke of manage to beat the field by 5+ points, practically a land slide in this sport. And despite her visible flawed performance of an inferior program, the panel decided to reward her with the greatest PCS in the history of ladies figure skating. Way to go COP, good luck in your future!

Thank you Patrick Ibens for speaking the truth, and hats up to Tony Wheeler for asking the tough questions.
http://figureskate.wordpress.com/2010/03/08/patrick-ibens-interview/

Great post!

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Please do any random combination matching judges' scores for Adelina and Yuna. In every combination, four judges stand out with blatant favoritism for Adelina.

Do this. Create a Java program and use two arrays, one with Yuna's scores and one with Adelina's. Shuffle each array and compare the scores where Yuna = Adelina. My guess would be that, if you compared all 10 scores 1,000 times, you'd find on average between 6 and 7 judges preferred Adelina.

 

[Mathman]

So you are fine with five of nine judges giving world record, over 150 point scores, for a performance with an uncalled edge violation and an UR, with a russian controller? How many instances of questionable judging do you need to see before the results rise from the controversial to the level of a conspiracy? You are never going to get the 4 or 5 judges in the conspiracy to confess to their wrongdoing, all we have is the scores, which have risen to such levels that make any explanation other than a conspiracy an unlikely possibility.

No, I am saying that analyzing the statistics that are available to us cannot get us any farther ahead in our investigation. The judges gave a lot a ridiculously high scores. That by itself is not evidence that Putin bribed the judge from Venezuela (although he probably did). What we need is a smoking gun.

As much as I like figure skating, I like mathematics more. i hate to see it abused.

 

[sk8in]

Adelina had arguably the most intricate program in the entire field. Each of her jump entrances were more difficult, as in fewer crossovers and more turns in both directions, than either Caro or Yuna. As an example, Yuna did six crossovers prior to her lutz, whereas Adelina did only two but gained speed through other steps. A second would be their triple flips: look at how many steps Yuna and Adelina do before the jump, and how Adelina's more closely precede the jump. These things may not matter to you, and they might not look as clean and smooth, but they are more difficult and not at all indicative of "junior" skating. That Caroline Zhang does just crossovers and is much slower than Adelina shows how much work she has put into generate speed from moves other than basic stroking.

Outside of Yuna's opening combination, I don't think she did particularly more crossovers than Adelina. Her transition steps might not be as complicated, however she had a longer step sequence full of huge movements and deep edges that Adelina could not perform.

 

[kslr0816]

To clarify MM's point, it isn't necessarily that the judges liked Adelina's program better. They merely judged it to be better. That was the impression I got from Scott, was that he and Sandra very much preferred Yuna's overall performance, but it didn't accrue as many points as Adelina, who made more of an effort to tailor her program to the judging criteria, similar to how Irina would Bielmann everything to gain levels even though it made her program less pleasing.

you're essentially still just referring to the tech, which is justified. the PCS and GOE are not justified

 

[kslr0816]

No, I am saying that analyzing the statistics that are available to us cannot get us any farther ahead in our investigation. The judges gave a lot a ridiculously high scores. That by itself is not evidence that Putin bribed the judge from Venezuela (although he probably did). What we need is a smoking gun.

As much as I like figure skating, I like mathematics more. i hate to see it abused.

you're absolutely right. there is nothing we can take from the judging or the numbers that gets any further as far as if there was a conspiracy involved. A conspiracy, in and of itself, may never be proved, at least without the ISU formally conducting an investigation.

At this point, we've only got the judges' scores, and we can only share our opinions as to whether or not they were justified.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

you're essentially still just referring to the tech, which is justified. the PCS and GOE are not justified

Sure they are. The TR and CH scores reflect the difficulty of the choreography (among other things). GOE factors in the difficulty of entrances and exits (among other things). Yuna and Caro should be ahead of Adelina in SS, whereas Adelina should be ahead in TR.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Her transition steps might not be as complicated, however she had a longer step sequence full of huge movements and deep edges that Adelina could not perform.

I agree with you. It was a quantity vs quality consideration. However, Yuna did a lot of difficult content too, and what Adelina did was also very high quality (not quite as high as Y/M/C, but better than everyone else).

 

[sk8in]

To clarify MM's point, it isn't necessarily that the judges liked Adelina's program better. They merely judged it to be better. That was the impression I got from Scott, was that he and Sandra very much preferred Yuna's overall performance, but it didn't accrue as many points as Adelina, who made more of an effort to tailor her program to the judging criteria, similar to how Irina would Bielmann everything to gain levels even though it made her program less pleasing.

Aside from technical, this is a TES argument. TES applied in the 6.0 system. The new ISU system has GOE exactly to compensate against pure TES.

 

[usethis2]

P.S. Yuna took the ice last and judges knew the scores of all others; one judge gave Yuna 134.09, which is less than Julia’s 135.34. Anyone agrees on this fabulous judge's insight - put your hands up and say big yay.

Freaking ridiculous. What crooks.

 

[kslr0816]

Sure they are. The TR and CH scores reflect the difficulty of the choreography (among other things). GOE factors in the difficulty of entrances and exits (among other things). Yuna and Caro should be ahead of Adelina in SS, whereas Adelina should be ahead in TR.

I believe that still doesn't make up everything that is considered for PCS and GOE - just a small portion. transitions are just one thing. ss are just one thing. it still doesn't fully justify the PCS and GOE.

 

[leafygreens]

one judge gave Yuna 134.09, which is less than Julia’s 135.34. Anyone agrees on this fabulous judge's insight - put your hands up and say big yay.

This is criminal.

By the way, the reason why the ISU went to the system of randomizing separately for each skater (IIRC this happened some time around 2008?) is this. Earlier, when they just randomized once for the whole segment, it was almost always possible to work backward and match up most of the judges. This defeated the purpose (the purpose being to pull the wool over peoples' eyes).

I'm afraid you are correct. How sad.

Once "proof" emerges with text messages and emails... Adelina's gold medal can be confiscated and returned to rightful owner = Queen Yuna

That would be hilarious. Can't wait.

I read on some forum the judge from Finland was a former Russian, either skater or coach, who now lives in Finland. Little mystery that she also supported Sot in the judging, hence the hug.

Yes, Olga Baranova with her very Finnish-sounding name.

Just to echo drivingmissdaisy and Mrs. P (two of our more knowledgeable posters),:

In your opinion. Everybody has one.

 

[kslr0816]

the question still remains - even if there was a conspiracy, which frankly I'm not even convinced of, HOW would it be uncovered. potentially a good mental exercise

 

[jenaj]

What many failed to realize during the inception of COP is that to expect consistent high quality 100% human judging is ultimately futile - unless there are conscientious efforts to devise a strong ethic commission to managing the judges and its governing body. Something like Ombudsman for ISU and judges with their due diligence, reconciliation, audit deliberation and recalibration across different judging panel standards to promote impartiality, minimize subjectivity at major international events (WC, GP series, Olympics). It is particularly needed due to the crappy history this sport has in the public eye, and ISU's continuous failure to address these issues properly, maybe due to $$$$ This doesn't have to be a full time role, but a independent party consist of independent consultant professionals during key intervals of the season. Maybe funded by the IOC.

Judge judges events, Who are judging the judges?

The fact is as long as there are anonymity, ISU can easily manipulate any outcome without breaking any rules. They have all the information, they have all the power. Just place judges who has a history of awarding certain skaters high marks, certain style preferences, music tastes or national / political affiliation and biases, theoretically it can swing results to determine and improve the percentage of winning per particular skater per each competition. Even if it the judges are randomized, say draw 9 out of a list of 18, they can still ensure the 18 listed have a track history that befit their agenda. Is it any wonder 2 of the replacement judges at this Ladies FreeSkate also happened to be on the same panel as European Championship where the Russian skaters received wildly inflated PCS? The 3rd judge from Estonia judged Adelina at 2012 Jr. worlds, and the 4th judge the Ukraine judge has a shady past that should have seen him banned for life, instead he get to take part at another most controversial Olympics of all time. He was banned for a year at Nagano, he judged at Salt lake ice dance, and now Sochi ladies. Yet ISU don't seem to care.

Just like the skaters, each judges should have their own protocol scoring sheet that are available to public scrutiny. They should have a public profile fully disclose their judging history, scores they have given at which competition (whether were included or precluded being too high or too low), wrong calls made, corrective history (by ISU or Ombudsman), any penalties received etc... Only then there could be complete transparency and accountability to build public trust in this sport.

The skaters need to know they can trust the system and be judged fairly. Sochi Olympics has shattered that image of impartial judging since the Teams event, while the ladies was the pinnacle of those bias. If the worlds bests can't overcome a biased panel through sheer excellence, what hopes are there for the lower ranked skaters? Why bother training your heart out for an unfair sport?

Human beings are not robots. They can be inconsistent, fickle minded, emotional, sensitive, who all cope with pressures, environmental influences in their own way. Who all have built-in cultural, nationalistic/political biases that they fight to keep in check. Without supervision, without accountability, without transparency in the long run, no matter their age or nationality, they will always eventually succumb to these biases and poison the system. Without accountability and transparency, it always lead to corruption under any social organisation in any industry or business, it is no different than this sport of figure skating.

People like to pretend COP is better due to lower risk factors to protect 'too much' cheating through small incremental rewards that are marked by 'averaging' than 6.0 holistic way of judging, but as it has been proven, vulnerability has been identified and exploited. Somebody basically need to ensure judges need to be held accountable for all their marks given and be available to justify them.


---------------

By the way all these talk about missing a triple is the reason Kim has lost is truly laughable and convinient. Are jumps the only method to measure technicality? People forget Kim has always had 6 triples program since her back injuries, and with it she won multiple WC titles and Vancouver for several years through sheer quality and excellent delivery of her text book elements. That many Juniors have always had 7 triples but they were getting no where close to the seniors because they simply lack in maturity, artistry and seasoned skating skills. Things like Flutz, UR also hurt their scores, something Russian skaters are not called on at this competition at all, even if they had a history of flutzing and UR at previous competitions this season. People seem also forget it is not that Kim is deliberately trying less hard technical content, but there were rules changed after Vancouver which prevent her inclusion of 2A3T unless she risk injury to bring back the 3loop, ie/ ISU telling her to retire basically. Yet with it, she lead the field by 20 points last year with her Les Mis while being under marked in her SP. She has always maxed her best standard to have include 3lz3T in her Short and Long, and 2x 3luz in her long, never dumb down for a competition.

How convenient then all of a sudden to ignore all her other superior qualities. The fact there are hardly a gap between the 2 skaters in every thing else include GOEs and PCS indicate the marks are not done correctly. The system absolutely failed when we have Putin'mates running the asylum. Yes, COP died at this competition on the biggest night of 4 years in ladies free skate. It died even the reason it had been born was out of the necessity to be more objective and impartial to minimize subjectivity - to be less vulnerable to abuse. Yet at this competition, it seems deliberately maximized subjectivity by putting together a panel where subjectivity gains maximum reward beyond all reason, all objectivity according to sporting history particular the PCS corridor of judging.

To summarize. At this Olympics, a visibly flawed performance of an inferior Junior program managed to beat 3 world champions all put out practically flawless career best FS with superior programs, yet the 9th ranked WC skater from last worlds with no major international medals to speak of manage to beat the field by 5+ points, practically a land slide in this sport. And despite her visibly flawed performance of an inferior program, the panel decided to reward her with the greatest PCS in the history of ladies figure skating. Way to go COP, good luck in your future!

Thank you Patrick Ibens for speaking the truth, and hats up to Tony Wheeler for asking the tough questions.
http://figureskate.wordpress.com/2010/03/08/patrick-ibens-interview/

Bravo! And thanks for the link to that interview, too.

 

[usethis2]

No, I am saying that analyzing the statistics that are available to us cannot get us any farther ahead in our investigation. The judges gave a lot a ridiculously high scores. That by itself is not evidence that Putin bribed the judge from Venezuela (although he probably did). What we need is a smoking gun.

As much as I like figure skating, I like mathematics more. i hate to see it abused.

That is true. Unless someone 'fesses up, we may never know the truth. It may be that someone bribed/threatened some judges, or it could be that those judges were of the same crooked mind on their own. (Though I think the tech panel can and should explain their calls and disclose its process during the competition)

That's why I support a reform. Medals won't change hands at this point, even though I don't accept the legitimacy.

 

[kslr0816]

side question - the ISU has already denied any notion of conspiracy or cheating to the public. does anyone think they're doing any internal investigation of their own?

 

[Npmonice]

I tell you how we uncover the conspiracy, or at least start. We ask the French, yes French technical specialist Vanessa Gusmeroli. Maybe she will give up the game as the French judge did in 2002.

 

[kslr0816]

I tell you how we uncover the conspiracy, or at least start. We ask the French, yes French technical specialist Vanessa Gusmeroli. Maybe she will give up the game as the French judge did in 2002.

lmao

 

[b-man]

No, I am saying that analyzing the statistics that are available to us cannot get us any farther ahead in our investigation. The judges gave a lot a ridiculously high scores. That by itself is not evidence that Putin bribed the judge from Venezuela (although he probably did). What we need is a smoking gun.

As much as I like figure skating, I like mathematics more. i hate to see it abused.

You are not going to get a smoking gun. Yes, the judges gave out a lot of ridiculously high scores. Five judges decided this was a world record, over 150 point, performance, although many on GS spotted 2 clear flaws. That is illogical. Adelina also got thrity three +3 scores in GOE. Really? Whether in GOE, or PCS, a lot more of those ridiculous scores you noted went to Adelina than to anyone else.