The Judging Controversy Thread

[drivingmissdaisy]

I don't understand where the merit is in this argument. You guys have really treaded out into the sticks. If the scores were corrupt, biased, or wrong to begin with, it doesn't matter how you combine them.

Agreed. It's a pointless exercise but it bothers me when people use shoddy math or stats to make a point.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Is it unfair to point out that the most biased judge may have in fact been Yuna's 3rd column judge?? In Yuna's favor!!. Or are we to only focus on a Russian bias here? Could that same judge maybe even be the same as Adelina's 5th judge and someone just showering points on everyone with a pair of skates on with Yuna getting the most benefit. Could one not be suspicious of such scores on both sides?

In case you want a link again.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

This? Sorry to quote myself and maybe this is just combatitive. I just think it is fair to recognize that the single most biased judge was not favoring the Russian. I understand that a group of judges teaming up is a problem but we need to deal with favoritism on both sides to successfully address this problem and move forward.

 

[skatedreamer]

It's years on the scene that makes the difference. It's the same way Michelle Kwan with 7 triples didn't even podium at her first Worlds, but a few years after she was winning if she only did 6 triples.

I'd love Michelle even without any triples at all!

Having said that, the "years on the scene" idea has always seemed absurd to me. Why should that be a factor? The only thing that should matter is the technical and artistic quality of the performance at a given event.

 

[usethis2]

There doesn't have to be proof. The burden of explanation is on the ISU, and the judges in question. If 4 judges scored Adelina and Yuna with the premeditation of making Adelina win the competition, the is more than enough to completely ruin the competition's integrity.

True statement on the presumption of burden of proof. It's on the ISU. That is why they release the protocols to begin with. When questions arise about the accuracy and legitimacy of those protocols, it's their job to explain them.

 

[gkelly]

"years on the scene" idea has always seemed absurd to me. Why should that be a factor? The only thing that should matter is the technical and artistic quality of the performance at a given event.

And indeed, skaters who move up the ranks later in their career are often more powerful and/or more polished than in their youth and are rewarded for those qualities, even when they don't execute as many jumps.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

True statement on the presumption of burden of proof. It's on the ISU. That is why they release the protocols to begin with. When questions arise about the accuracy and legitimacy of those protocols, it's their job to explain them.

Is anybody familiar with IOC policy and is there a way to petition IOC or for any federations to pressure IOC into pushing ISU to explain there results to the public. Or is the fact that Iceburg Palace was sold out night after night enough that the IOC too will just look the other way?

 

[hurrah]

I'd love Michelle even without any triples at all!

Having said that, the "years on the scene" idea has always seemed absurd to me. Why should that be a factor? The only thing that should matter is the technical and artistic quality of the performance at a given event.

Yeah, sort of like saying Usain Bolt's 9.58 record wouldn't quite have been accepted and made into 9.70 had he made that record in his freshman year? The very fact that some poster can make such an argument and not see his own ridiculousness is a testament to how corrupt this system is. Make that argument in any other sport and you would be making a laughingstock of yourself.

 

[Anna K.]

Is anybody familiar with IOC policy and is there a way to petition IOC or for any federations to pressure IOC into pushing ISU to explain there results to the public. Or is the fact that Iceburg Palace was sold out night after night enough that the IOC too will just look the other way?

It's not about explaining results. That would be "she did one more jump than the other". It's about explaining the controversies in results.
Just saying.

 

[jehan215]

It's not about explaining results. That would be "she did one more jump than the other". It's about explaining the controversies in results.
Just saying.

Yes I think by "controversies", you mean to say that there was a huge possibility of conflict of interest and bias-issues amongst the judges; yet ISU looked the other way. Therefore it created a high possibility of inconsistencies in judging, overlooking of wrong-edge calls/under-rotations, and inflating PCS scores. That is what the ISU and IOC should be looking at to prove themselves to the public, but then again - they don't have enough integrity; they just don't care.

 

[Anna K.]

Yes I think by "controversies", you mean to say that there was a huge possibility of conflict of interest and bias-issues amongst the judges; yet ISU looked the other way. Therefore it created a high possibility of inconsistencies in judging, overlooking of wrong-edge calls/under-rotations, and inflating PCS scores. That is what the ISU and IOC should be looking at to prove themselves to the public, but then again - they don't have enough integrity; they just don't care.

I meant both interest conflict and inadequacies in score, like overlooked mistakes and inflated PCS. They may try to ignore this but there will still be questions, for example, "is the interest conflict and inadequate scores merely a coincidence?" and "do you often have coincidences like that?"
Something has happened. It's neither revolution nor great changes but still, the world isn't like it was before Sochi.

 

[verysmuchso]

Music break anyone?
Yuna singing "I'm in Love" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q_0gqhV2a0&feature=player_embedded

 

[jehan215]

I meant both interest conflict and inadequacies in score, like overlooked mistakes and inflated PCS. They may try to ignore this but there will still be questions, for example, "is the interest conflict and inadequate scores merely a coincidence?" and "do you often have coincidences like that?"
Something has happened. It's neither revolution nor great changes but still, the world isn't like it was before Sochi.

Yes, I agree. I guess we only learn things from hindsight - we don't know about these issues unless it becomes exposed to the world. But it still doesn't make it any less arguable or punishable. As for overlooked mistakes - I still can't believe how the judges overlooked so many wrong-edge calls/under-rotations. Yes, the Russian skaters had more difficult jump layouts but is that the message ISU wants to send? That attempting harder jump layouts trumps over executing perfect but less difficult jumps? If that is so, the artistry of figure skating will fade as skaters just throw in more difficult jumps for the sole purpose of accumulating points.

 

[tictochyun]

You should understand the current evaluation system. Base score itself is not important. You should think about the GOE. Yuna had mostly 1 or 2. But Sotnikova got mostly 2 or 3. If you just think about the number of +3 GOE, Sotnikova had 33 and Yuna just had 13. Do you think Sotnikova's quality was this much better? It doesn't make sense if you really saw their performances. There might always be bias, but there is certain level of criteria.

 

[aa456]

Is anybody familiar with IOC policy and is there a way to petition IOC or for any federations to pressure IOC into pushing ISU to explain there results to the public. Or is the fact that Iceburg Palace was sold out night after night enough that the IOC too will just look the other way?

I may be a pessimist but I don't think anything is going to come out of this whole controversy. I may not buy the judging conspiracy (at least not all 9, or even 7, of them being in on it) but I do agree there was a lean/bias in scoring PCS & GOE and tech calls were generous and inconsistent to say the least for certain skaters. However, ISU and IOC have said that they agree with the result and will not delve deeper into it. By the time another competition starts most people would've forgotten about this issue. Only if/once a big federation and its skaters get affected would something might change.

 

[jehan215]

I may be a pessimist but I don't think anything is going to come out of this whole controversy. I may not buy the judging conspiracy (at least not all 9, or even 7, of them being in on it) but I do agree there was a lean/bias in scoring PCS & GOE and tech calls were generous and inconsistent to say the least for certain skaters. However, ISU and IOC have said that they agree with the result and will not delve deeper into it. By the time another competition starts most people would've forgotten about this issue. Only if/once a big federation and its skaters get affected would something might change.

ISU doesn't want IOC to delve deeper into it. They've already received a warning from some other scandal a few years ago. One more scandal, and figure skating is no more at the Olympics. Which is kind of confusing seeing as the figure skating event should make loads of money for the IOC in ticket sales etc. HMMMMMM

 

[Anna K.]

Yes, I agree. I guess we only learn things from hindsight - we don't know about these issues unless it becomes exposed to the world. But it still doesn't make it any less arguable or punishable. As for overlooked mistakes - I still can't believe how the judges overlooked so many wrong-edge calls/under-rotations. Yes, the Russian skaters had more difficult jump layouts but is that the message ISU wants to send? That attempting harder jump layouts trumps over executing perfect but less difficult jumps? If that is so, the artistry of figure skating will fade as skaters just throw in more difficult jumps for the sole purpose of accumulating points.

Well, we'll see. ISU can't keep silence forever. I'm really interested what they will say or agree upon -I mean, when confronted with the controversial side of all this.

 

[starrynight]

Mathematically you cannot arrange the scores so that Adelina wins less than 4 or more than 9.

Seems like you keep sidestepping the issue. Your simple formula on the number of winning and losing pairs is simply irrelevant.

 

[kslr0816]

Well, we'll see. ISU can't keep silence forever. I'm really interested what they will say or agree upon -I mean, when confronted with the controversial side of all this.

i hope that's true, and i hope they do address it better than they have

 

[aa456]

Yes, I agree. I guess we only learn things from hindsight - we don't know about these issues unless it becomes exposed to the world. But it still doesn't make it any less arguable or punishable. As for overlooked mistakes - I still can't believe how the judges overlooked so many wrong-edge calls/under-rotations. Yes, the Russian skaters had more difficult jump layouts but is that the message ISU wants to send? That attempting harder jump layouts trumps over executing perfect but less difficult jumps? If that is so, the artistry of figure skating will fade as skaters just throw in more difficult jumps for the sole purpose of accumulating points.

Based on the protocols, even the logic of "attempting harder content trumps perfect but less difficult content" doesn't apply. Look at Mao's TES. her 3-3 (which looked rotated in real time, IMO) and 2-3 were deemed under-rotated and she got an edge call too. If the tech caller wants to be lax about the harder jumps, why not be lax for everyone!

 

[usethis2]

Having said that, the "years on the scene" idea has always seemed absurd to me. Why should that be a factor? The only thing that should matter is the technical and artistic quality of the performance at a given event.

Totally agree. And I think Adelina lacked in those departments compared to some other skaters. So did Yulia. Both girls received strange marks for their performances that night. (and the night before)