The Judging Controversy Thread | Page 138 | Golden Skate

The Judging Controversy Thread

#1 is a good idea. #2 would be odd though, I don't know of any sport in which referees or judges participate in press conferences.

:confused: The NFL does release statements clarifying controversial calls made by referees and in some cases, even admitting that some calls are wrong.

In 1994, after Oksana Baiul defeated Nancy Kerrigan in a 5-4 decision, the referee who supervised the 9-judge panel for the ladies figure skating event, gave quotes on why the result turned out the way it did.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/27/s...udges-judge-says-baiul-deserves-the-gold.html
 
doesn't seem like russia has much faith in sotnkiova's win either - she was listed as a SUB behind liptniskaia and pogorilaya, and it looks like now sotnikova may not even go at all

http://en.ria.ru/sports/20140306/18...er-Sotnikova-Downgraded-for-World-Champs.html

http://www.thewire.com/culture/2014...ampionships-giving-doubters-more-chew/358880/

not much faith in the girl who "won" gold medal for them 2 weeks ago....

How convenient. I think they just don't want a non-Russian/not as corrupt judging panel to have a go at Adelina, so close to the Olympics. It would make her win look even more suspicious.
 
Yulia Lipnitskaya

3Lutz+3Toe +.5 / Could have a better lutz edge and the landings of both jumps were hard, but she does get GREAT spring on the toeloop.
2Axel+3Toe+2Toe +.5 / Not a good double axel and a little awkward at the end, but again a very good triple toe.
FCSp4 +2 / Very good.
StSq3 +2 / Very good flow throughout for the most part and very difficult for a Level 3.
3Flip +1 / Could definitely be bigger, but well delivered.
2Axel +1 / Not much height but good distance and flow.
3Loop< -2 / Step out.
3Sal -3 and fall deduction
3Lutz+2Toe -.5 / Lutz edge could be better.
LSp4 +2 / Very good, although could be even faster.
ChSp1 +2 / Excellent positions, I wish the spiral was held out even longer though.
CCoSp4 +3 / Extraordinary.

Skating Skills - 8.25 / Good speed throughout without many crossovers, good control outside of the jump landings.
Transitions - 8.25 / Has transitions into everything, although the jump landings hurt this mark.
Performance - 7.75 / The performance was somewhat detached. Good polish but not her most alive.
Choreography - 7.75 / Interesting movements throughout, could be a little more distinct and the mistakes don't help.
Interpretation 7.5 / Her timing was off throughout much of the performance. As such, the character of the music wasn't able to be drawn out nearly as well as she normally could.

62.57 + 63.2 = 125.77

Here was Blades of Passions scoring of my favorite skater scoring in the DIY judging thread. While I know BoP goes overboard sometimes and I disagree with a few marks in particular I can see his exact points as to why he set certain marks. I can and do feel Yulia and Gracie were better than Mao overall but at least I understand why this judge disagrees. I can respectfully disagree. So I really think the Judges should have to write their reasons like this next to the numbers for not only the skater's sake of improvement but it may prevent a wild number from appearing due to the fact that the judge will be forced to say why they put it there. I think we would expect at least this much from a college level research paper so this should be achievable in a profession context. Two to three sentences to sum up your CH scores should be easy for these judges.

I too agree anonymous judging needs to go! But who here doesn't really. In regards to the inflated scores my take again was first oh it's just the Olympics. It's a "5" ring circus with wild scores. While I maintain Yulia was by far the best lady overall and earned her medal as much as anyone in any sport. That 141 in the FS was a disservice to her. She was wobbly. She knew it. That should have been a 135 at best. We have all seen her nail that skate and while that was close and the pressure that country put on her was there she held on with very minor flaws. So I was actually nervous if she nailed Schindlers List she would get a +150!! I didn't want that for her and I tell myself the skating gods kindly knocked her over for her own good. At least she came out with a medal and as a 15yr old who has now skated in the Olympics twice.

Bottom line...it's not up to the skaters it's up to the 1) the ISU to enforce the rules. 2) the federations to uphold the standards of fairness and excellence. After all is said and done they are the ones sending these judges. Do not be fooled into believing that Russia is the only one who participated in this. There could be any number of federations expecting paybacks in the future in return for generous judging or various other kickbacks by other means.
 
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I'm not sure that I agree. Some people didn't like the result of how the judges interpreted the scoring rules. But the rules should be more closely examined. For instance, on the jump GOE you get credit for having features like good height and distance. Yuna probably has the best distance and tied for the best height. However, while she has great height and distance she doesn't get more credit that someone who has good height and distance. So someone like Julia can match her GOE without the height by doing a step into the jump and having good flow in and out of the jump. I think just having these be "yes or no" is a flaw because it doesn't reward a technically exceptional jump without some other random feature (i.e. being done "with the music").

Let's get back to Mao's score in LP....

Let me summarize the arguments that have been mentioned:
1) skate order hurt Mao in LP
2) she bombed in SP so it affected the judges' mindset in scoring her in LP
3) this is a common practice in figure skating
4) Mao had zero chance to medal after SP, so it doesn't matter how she was marked in LP

Now, can someone tell me if any of these is acceptable?
All these arguments are flawed and all the problems still originated from the judges themselves, not the scoring system.
 
Let's get back to Mao's score in LP....

Let me summarize the arguments that have been mentioned:
1) skate order hurt Mao in LP
2) she bombed in SP so it affected the judges' mindset in scoring her in LP
3) this is a common practice in figure skating
4) Mao had zero chance to medal after SP, so it doesn't matter how she was marked in LP

Now, can someone tell me if any of these is acceptable?
All these arguments are flawed and all the problems still originated from the judges themselves, not the scoring system.

I agree with 4! (By it doesn't matter how she was marked I mean that was as good as she could get) If you can win a medal with a SP which we've all seen then yes you should be able to lose one too. Especially a skate that bad. I don't think you fully appreciate how bad it was and are only focusing on her good skate. I really think while Mao's FS was my favorite based on character alone....it was a bit over scored and not enough to win a medal. Sorry just because I loved it isn't enough. At least I admit when my favorites are over scored.
 
Let's get back to Mao's score in LP....

Let me summarize the arguments that have been mentioned:
1) skate order hurt Mao in LP
2) she bombed in SP so it affected the judges' mindset in scoring her in LP
3) this is a common practice in figure skating
4) Mao had zero chance to medal after SP, so it doesn't matter how she was marked in LP

Now, can someone tell me if any of these is acceptable?
All these arguments are flawed and all the problems still originated from the judges themselves, not the scoring system.

I think far more people care about Yuna vs Caro vs Adelina than whether Mao finished 6th or 4th. If Mao was in the top group her score would have been much higher. Is it acceptable? I suppose if you are a fan new to skating it isn't but if you have followed skating over the years it is just something you get accustomed to.
 
I agree with 4! If you can win a medal with a SP which we've all seen then yes you should be able to lose one too. Especially a skate that bad. I don't think you fully appreciate how bad it was and are only focusing on her good skate. I really think while Mao's FS was my favorite based on character alone....it was a bit over scored and not enough to win a medal. Sorry just because I loved it isn't enough. At least I admit when my favorites are over scored.

I don't think you understand what I am saying.

What I want from the judges is to be as objective as possible.
They should treat SP and LP separately, shouldn't they?
They should only judge what happens on the ice, period.

BTW, Mao isn't my favorite skater. And I don't care if Mao wins a medal or not.
That's NOT the point.
The point is how we can make judging more professional and fair.
 
I don't think you understand what I am saying.

What I want from the judges is to be as objective as possible.
They should treat SP and LP separately, shouldn't they?
They should only judge what happens on the ice, period.

BTW, Mao isn't my favorite skater. And I don't care if Mao wins a medal or not.
That's NOT the point.
The point is how we can make judging more professional and fair.
If you read my post prior to yours in regards to you "lets get back to Mao" post then you'll see I'm interested in discussing fair judging. I even offered a very low score of my favorite as an example. The point is Mao's skate got all it could and arguably a little more. What's not fair about that?
 
I think far more people care about Yuna vs Caro vs Adelina than whether Mao finished 6th or 4th. If Mao was in the top group her score would have been much higher. Is it acceptable? I suppose if you are a fan new to skating it isn't but if you have followed skating over the years it is just something you get accustomed to.

I am not a new fan. I have been watching skating for almost 30 years. That means, I have witnessed some unbelievable judging and am sick and tired of it. But you seem to just embrace it fine.

Since judges in figure skating don't have a good track record, I usually look at their judging very closely.
Yes, most people only focus on Adelina, Caro and Yuna. But I don't only focus on the top three.
Let me give you another example.
The ladies LP in 2002 SLC, Sarah Hughes should win the LP, hands down.
And Sarah won the LP rightfully and most people probably didn't catch something hidden in detail.
I couldn't believe that she barely won it in a 5-4 split!! Four judges decided to go with Irina that night. I wonder what they saw?!
the argument of skate order again?!
People have to remember those four judges are very likely still in the system and could wait for another right time to strike again.
Changing the scoring system is probably not going to change them...
 
Let's get back to Mao's score in LP....

Let me summarize the arguments that have been mentioned:
1) skate order hurt Mao in LP
2) she bombed in SP so it affected the judges' mindset in scoring her in LP
3) this is a common practice in figure skating
4) Mao had zero chance to medal after SP, so it doesn't matter how she was marked in LP

Now, can someone tell me if any of these is acceptable?
All these arguments are flawed and all the problems still originated from the judges themselves, not the scoring system.

To be honest, Mao should have not had any chance to medal after the SP, no matter how well her LP was (unless the top skaters all bombed, which did not happen). She made errors on all 3 jumping passes, and had a fall. Under 6.0, she might have been in 7th or 8th instead of 16th, but she was rightfully nailed for her technical flaws. Unfortunately, this did affect her judging in the freeskate. All skaters should be judged equally, regardless of if their in the first or final flight (I know, idealistic).

Mao had a brilliant FS, but it's about 2 programs. 6th is actually hugely admirable and a big accomplishment considering how low she buried herself after the SP.
 
If you read my post prior to yours in regards to you "lets get back to Mao" post then you'll see I'm interested in discussing fair judging. I even offered a very low score of my favorite as an example. The point is Mao's skate got all it could and arguably a little more. What's not fair about that?

Mao got a little more than what? You mean based BoP's DIY scoring?
BoP put Mao in 1st.

BoP was more strict than the judging panel in Sochi, so almost everyone's score went down (Mao, Caro, Yuna, Adelina).
You cannot compare the scores given by BoP with those given by the judging panel in Sochi in the absolute sense.
It is way more meaningful to compare their scores in the relative sense, i.e. the rankings!

Let's use BoP's scoring as the basis for now. If the judges want to inflate the scores because it's the Olympics, then it is only fair to inflate everyone's scores. And Mao should still stay in 1st in LP. However, if the judges chose to inflate the scores only for certain skaters, then the ranking would flip and it's called favoritism, isn't it? Favoritism isn't right, is it?
 
To be honest, Mao should have not had any chance to medal after the SP, no matter how well her LP was (unless the top skaters all bombed, which did not happen). She made errors on all 3 jumping passes, and had a fall. Under 6.0, she might have been in 7th or 8th instead of 16th, but she was rightfully nailed for her technical flaws. Unfortunately, this did affect her judging in the freeskate. All skaters should be judged equally, regardless of if their in the first or final flight (I know, idealistic).

Mao had a brilliant FS, but it's about 2 programs. 6th is actually hugely admirable and a big accomplishment considering how low she buried herself after the SP.

I understand all your points.
But those are irrelevant to what I meant to emphasize.
I'll try again.

I couldn't care less if Mao, or any skater, medals or not.
All I want is that the judges mark every skater as objectively as possible based on how the skaters perform on the ice.
What happens in SP should have ZERO influence on how the skaters are being marked in LP.
Similarly, skate order should have minimal to zero effect on the skater's score, which is supposed to be one big improvement of CoP over 6.0

At the end, the skater with the highest total points wins.
That's all.

Mao's score in LP is just an example of unprofessional judging. How could she get lower PCS than Yulia, and so much lower than the top three? The judges forgot the PCS they gave Mao when they marked the final flight?
 
All I want is that the judges mark every skater as objectively as possible based on how the skaters perform on the ice.
What happens in SP should have ZERO influence on how the skaters are being marked in LP.

It's more the skate order IMO. From the judges perspective, I think this might be the mentality:

Skaters 1 and 2 skate ok. They get marks in the 5's.
Skater 3 skates great. She get's marks in the 8's because she is a lot better than what they have seen so far.
Skaters 4,5,6,7 and 8 skate ok and get marks in the 6's.
Skater 9 skates very well but not as good as skater 3, but better than 4-7. She gets marks in the 7's.
Skater 10 skates great, a lot better than 9. She gets 9's.

It becomes difficult after several groups for the judges to accurately compare skaters who came far earlier in the evening, and the judges do get somewhat boxed into higher scores for later skaters because the middle groups do get some good marks. I don't think asking a judge to grade all the elements, judge the components, and accurately compare each skater to those who skated two or three groups earlier in about a minute is realistic.
 
This! Also, aside from getting rid of anonymous judging, it might be good to have separate panels to score GOE and PCS. I think it's probably very difficult for one judge to do both effectively.

GOEs don't take a lot of attention. For jumps, the element is over in a second, the decision is made right away, and there's nothing more to do except record the score.
After the program is the time to confirm whether there were underrotations or incorrect takeoff edges, or to check obscure rules for unusual situations. But there's not much more to be done about a questionable jump in real time once the skater has moved on to the next part of the program. So a judge who had nothing to do but score GOEs would be sitting there with nothing to think about between elements.

So if it were cost effective to split the panel, I'd recommend having the same judges who score GOEs also do Skating Skills and Transitions. Let a separate panel look at P/E, Choreography, and Interpretation.

I'm not sure that I agree. Some people didn't like the result of how the judges interpreted the scoring rules. But the rules should be more closely examined. For instance, on the jump GOE you get credit for having features like good height and distance. Yuna probably has the best distance and tied for the best height. However, while she has great height and distance she doesn't get more credit that someone who has good height and distance. So someone like Julia can match her GOE without the height by doing a step into the jump and having good flow in and out of the jump. I think just having these be "yes or no" is a flaw because it doesn't reward a technically exceptional jump without some other random feature (i.e. being done "with the music").

I agree that there should be a clearer mechanism for rewarding "great" more than just "good."

But I don't think that height and distance are the only things that are worth rewarding, or double-rewarding when applicable.

Some very athletic skaters might get great height and distance on their jumps but have have long telegraphed setups, poor form in the air, break at the waist on landing, flutzes or lips or skidded takeoffs on axels and loops, etc.

And what about the skater who gets good distance, good flow in and out, without much height, or vice versa?

Height and distance are only two areas where one skater's jumps might be better than another's. Other areas deserve to be rewarded as well.

The biggest jumps might not be the "best" jumps.

The ladies LP in 2002 SLC, Sarah Hughes should win the LP, hands down.
But, she barely won it in a 5-4 split!! Four judges decided to go with Irina that night. I wonder what they saw?!
skate order?!

Skate order probably had something to do with the Russian and Danish judges putting Hughes 4th in the free -- they had her behind Cohen, long before Slutskaya skated.

What might any of the judges who didn't have Hughes first have preferred about Slutskaya's, Kwan's, or Cohen's performances? Well, those three skaters had differences between them, so I doubt it was simple style preference. But some judges might have thought Slutskaya was better than Hughes in some areas (e.g., speed, spin speed, lutz takeoff) and best overall for that reason, and those who put her behind Kwan or Cohen as well may have preferred their better body line even though that was not also a strength of Slutskaya's.

Hughes had a reputation for cheating jumps and for flutzing -- her lutz takeoff technique was one of the worst ever at the elite medal-winning level. (I can talk because I make similar mistakes on my single lutz attempts -- turning it more into a toe-assisted salchow even than a flip.) I don't think her underrotations were as bad at SLC as at some of her previous events, but they were still a weakness that may have caused some judges to discount her worthiness.

If SLC had been judged under IJS with a strict technical panel, we probably would have seen a lot of < and << calls; if Hughes had the most in the final group, she probably wouldn't have won.
 
It's more the skate order IMO. From the judges perspective, I think this might be the mentality:

Skaters 1 and 2 skate ok. They get marks in the 5's.
Skater 3 skates great. She get's marks in the 8's because she is a lot better than what they have seen so far.
Skaters 4,5,6,7 and 8 skate ok and get marks in the 6's.
Skater 9 skates very well but not as good as skater 3, but better than 4-7. She gets marks in the 7's.
Skater 10 skates great, a lot better than 9. She gets 9's.

It becomes difficult after several groups for the judges to accurately compare skaters who came far earlier in the evening, and the judges do get somewhat boxed into higher scores for later skaters because the middle groups do get some good marks. I don't think asking a judge to grade all the elements, judge the components, and accurately compare each skater to those who skated two or three groups earlier in about a minute is realistic.

Let me remind you again about some poster has mentioned.

We are talking one of the best skaters in the world, Mao Asada, not so unknown skater.
She delivered a career best LP and the judges would be foolish not to know that.

Later, the final flight came up and Yulia skated first. She had a fall and a step out.
Bang, she got higher PCS than Mao.

I have to ask again: I mean, really?
Is it really that difficult for the judges to compare Mao's career best LP with Yulia's so-so performance?
Most posters had no problem on that when the competition was ongoing.
Like I said yesterday, most people were screaming," Yulia'd better not get better PCS than Mao", after Yulia finished her LP.
 
I understand all your points.
But those are irrelevant to what I meant to emphasize.
I'll try again.

I couldn't care less if Mao, or any skater, medals or not.
All I want is that the judges mark every skater as objectively as possible based on how the skaters perform on the ice.
What happens in SP should have ZERO influence on how the skaters are being marked in LP.
Similarly, skate order should have minimal to zero effect on the skater's score, which is supposed to be one big improvement of CoP over 6.0

At the end, the skater with the highest total points wins.
That's all.

Mao's score in LP is just an example of unprofessional judging. How could she get lower PCS than Yulia, and so much lower than the top three? The judges forgot the PCS they gave Mao when they marked the final flight?

Oh, I thoroughly agree with you. The SP and earlier flights should have zero influence, but as pointed out, that's idealistic and not possible.

Indeed I do agree that Mao getting so much lower PCS than the top 3 and even lower than Julia was completely ridiculous, but that was essentially the marking of the whole event. I mean, Gold got a personal best with a fall, Sotnikova beat Kim and Kostner, Lipnitskaia got a personal best PCS with a fall, etc.
 
Let me remind you again about some poster has mentioned.

We are talking one of the best skaters in the world, Mao Asada, not so unknown skater.
She delivered a career best LP and the judges would be foolish not to know that.

So skating order shouldn't be taken into consideration. I agree but admit sometimes SP's are so good/bad that the effects may overlap into the FS. It a human judged event and human nature will always remain. Without it the artistic aspect of skating dies.

My question is simple. Why then is it ok to take REPUTATION into consideration like you clearly did above but then tell everyone else to be "fair" according to your standards? Wouldnt taking Mao's reputation into account when scoring be more unfair than taking Mao's SP into consideration.
 
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