The Judging Controversy Thread

[Meoima]

for what it's worth.. she didn't make a single mistake.. not even a two footed landing..

and after she got those record scores.. the ISU changes the rules in the next season..

Still, 40 points higher is a bit too much. I have to say I don't mind with the placement. But the scoring is too confused for me.

 

[ahy]

I think most of us are confused about how adelina placed first with those mistakes and did her stsq really worths a level 4?!

 

[qwertyskates]

I recommend a different direction if you want to support your opinion. The only thing objective is the techniques, which Sotnikova does not triumph. Even the subjective marks are not that convincing to majority.

Again, this is merely your opinion. There are videos and photographic evidence available that compare Adelina's and Yuna's jumps, one with Yuna, Mao & Adelina's 3S side by side. How about Yuna ubers do a similar comparison? I haven't seen any out there, strange isn't it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZvmcMtodFc

 

[bebevia]

Again, this is merely your opinion. There are videos and photographic evidence available that compare Adelina's and Yuna's jumps, one with Yuna, Mao & Adelina's 3S side by side. How about Yuna ubers do a similar comparison? I haven't seen any out there, strange isn't it?

And you insist yours is objective. Also, there are many other graphic evidences that support otherwise. Go through this entire thread, and the three other threads that discuss this matter, from top to bottom. You'll find them along the way. If you are willing to spend time and effort on listening to both sides, it's not that much. I do believe there are elements Sotnikova did better, but also, objective evidences only, don't agree she's a golden case.

 

[chalk5]

Ok guys seriously. Laying on your death bed, would you like to watch Yuna or Adelina perform? That's all really matters. Adelina delivered a good program for her level and talent, but it's just how she actually think she beat Yuna by her talent and technique is just laughable. For that matter of fact, I am sure little Koreans are going to be raged and all of them want to somehow to get the medal back for Yuna. I just hope that this controversy really fuels the Korean skaters because their work ethic is tremendous as many of you already know. Things will change my friend. Things will change. And btw Karma is a *****.

 

[bebevia]

And btw Karma is a *****.

Good Karma, hopefully! Not hoping for payback bias, though Korean feds actually don't care for their athletes...

 

[pangtongfan]

For what it's worth, I was looking at Yuna's impressive record on Wikipedia and I noticed that she finished 40 points higher in Vancouver than she did at the Grand Prix Final and 18 points higher than her previous season high. She did skate better at Vancouver, but 40 points higher?

She was easily 40 points better than at the Grand Prix final. She pretty much sucked at that event, with many major mistakes in both programs, and was lucky to win it (mostly since the whole event was dire).

Meanwhile if Sotnikova was really 20 points better in her LP than Trophee de France laugh, than by the same measure Kim's LP score at the Games should have been 100 points higher than the Grand Prix final in 2010.

 

[pangtongfan]

Which judges do you think came from ex-Soviet republics?

I am also interested in your definition of "most."

The countries of the judges arent listed on the site anymore, but I do remember it posted pre event and there was an Estonian judge, Azerbajean judge, obviously the infamous Ukranian and Russian judges, a Czech judge, and one other ex Soviet satelite judge.

 

[qwertyskates]

And you insist yours is objective. Also, there are many other graphic evidences that support otherwise. Go through this entire thread, and the three other threads that discuss this matter, from top to bottom. You'll find them along the way. If you are willing to spend time and effort on listening to both sides, it's not that much. I do believe there are elements Sotnikova did better, but also, objective evidences only, don't agree she's a golden case.

I have, they are completely tiresome as they ONLY present one side of the story, eg. How can Adelina's score go up by x points, but of course when Yuna's went up by x+ points during Vancouver it's not controversial...

I don't question Yuna's or Hanyu's spike, and I don't question Adelina's either, this is because I am applying the SAME criteria to all 3 skaters.

Of course for you *ONLY* when it's someone who beat Yuna that her scores should be suspect. Yuna is exceptional, if her score went up by x% it is because she performed x% better, but NOT for Adelina, even though it is clear Sochi was the best skate she has performed ever.

This says a lot about "objectivity".

 

[chalk5]

Ok PEOPLE. The amount of babbling and comparing skaters here is ridiculous.

YUNA is one of those people who come once in awhile. She is in her own league. I'm sorry that Adelina has to go through this, but she is just not even comparable by any means. If judging does change, or the fact that it's being questioned worldwide with even former figure skaters and judges, we already know that there is a problem. The talent and beauty seen in Yuna is not calculated through some numbers, but through your naked eyes. It's very simple.

 

[bebevia]

I have, they are completely tiresome as they ONLY present one side of the story, eg. How can Adelina's score go up by x points, but of course when Yuna's went up by x+ points during Vancouver it's not controversial...

I don't question Yuna's or Hanyu's spike, and I don't question Adelina's either, this is because I am applying the SAME criteria to all 3 skaters.

Of course for you *ONLY* when it's someone who beat Yuna that her scores should be suspect. Yuna is exceptional, if her score went up by x% it is because she performed x% better, but NOT for Adelina, even though it is clear Sochi was the best skate she has performed ever.

Incorrect. I do take into account the Olympic inflation, and I do believe Sotnikova did better than her GP, artistically. I don't feel Yuna's FS was her best ever, and I actually criticized her from the beginning of the season; "Yuna fans" have often hated me in many places. However, I believe Sotnikova's steps was Lv. 3, Yuna's was Lv. 4, Carolina did better than both purely artistic-wise, and after assessing their scores, I still believe Sotnikova deserved Bronze.

"ONLY" is something you can say if you only see me in this thread, a rather invisible poster, and if you only saw Yuna's side throughout this thread, you should reread the thread and appreciate drivingmissdaisy and a couple others. There are more videos that point out more than % rise.

I do have to object your statement "objectively" Sotnokova did better, because then everyone here is arguing with objective minds. BoP's steps analysis was the most objective analysis attempt made, and Sotnikova's uncalled edges too. Subjectively, if you preferred Sotnokova's energetic program as to Yuna's subtle program, that's fine, but that's still subjective.

 

[Mrs. P]

I have, they are completely tiresome as they ONLY present one side of the story, eg. How can Adelina's score go up by x points, but of course when Yuna's went up by x+ points during Vancouver it's not controversial...

I don't question Yuna's or Hanyu's spike, and I don't question Adelina's either, this is because I am applying the SAME criteria to all 3 skaters.

Of course for you *ONLY* when it's someone who beat Yuna that her scores should be suspect. Yuna is exceptional, if her score went up by x% it is because she performed x% better, but NOT for Adelina, even though it is clear Sochi was the best skate she has performed ever.

This says a lot about "objectivity".

Yuna's scores leading up to Vancouver..

Trophee Eric Bompard: 210.03 (76.08; 133.95)
Skate America: 187.98 (76.28; 111.70)
Grand Prix Final: 188.86 (65.64; 123.22)
Vancouver: 228.56 (78.50;150.06)

TES
Trophee Eric Bompard: 210.03 (43.80; 67.55)
Skate America: 187.98 (44.00; 51.18)
Grand Prix Final: 188.86 (33.80; 61.70)
Vancouver: 228.56 (44.70; 78.30)

PCS
Trophee Eric Bompard: 210.03 (32.28; 66.40)
Skate America: 187.98 (32.28; 61.52)
Grand Prix Final: 188.86 (31.84; 61.52)
Vancouver: 228.56 (33.80;71.76)


The difference between her SP from Skate America and Vancouver was 2.22 points or 2 percent. She got a tad higher PCS in the SP, 1.52 points or 4 percent.

The biggest difference came in her FS. 16 points, or a 12 percent difference.

However, Yuna had not skated a clean free program leading up to Vancouver. If some of you recall, she actually got beat by Rachael Flatt in the FS at Skate America after falling on her 3F, getting 3 downgrades (which what < was at the time and popping her 3Z into 2Z<. At Trophee Eric Bompard, she basically missed her 3F costing her 5.50 points. At the GPF she only did a 3Z-2T, UR on her 2A-3T with major -GOE

So add 5.5 points to her Trophee Eric Bompard FS TES (which was clean otherwise) and you got 73.05. That's just getting a 3F at base value. At Vancouver she got 1.80 GOE so add that..74.85.

The PCS difference was much higher at 8 percent or 5.36 points.

But if your recall the FS, the judges were giving out +GOE and +PCS like candy. Pretty much all the skaters who skated clean got a boost in +GOE and +PCS that night leading to a whole ton of personal bests. Joannie Rochette, for example, went from 56.72 at GPF to 68.48 in Vancouver. Laura Lepisto got 62.72 in Vancouver compared to 59.20 a few weeks earlier at Europeans.

So I don't think Yuna's score improve is that hard to explain.

 

[Rubirosa]

Meh, quit changing around the argument. You can't trumpet base value as the most important thing when it comes to a skater you don't like but acknowledge the importance of PCS when it comes to Mao Asada in the SP. And Mao Asada getting first in the FS wouldn't push Yuna down to bronze.

You teach me. You trumpet PCS when it comes to Yuna Kim but acknoledge the unimpotance of base value when it comes to another skater. You see now?
Wouldn't push Yuna down? I said that. No one can ever best Yuna. It's a must. If she is #1, judges worked well. If she is #2, it's judging controversy. Now Yuna fans are doomed to sing this song forever. Thank you Adelina! Sorry, I can't stop laughing.

 

[Rubirosa]

Laying on your death bed, would you like to watch Yuna or Adelina perform?

Fun question. If I wanted to die with joy, remember how young, fresh I was, I would watch Adelina. If I wanted to die thinking what an old angry woman I am, I would watch Yuna. Adelina, Mao, Caro come with positive feeling. Yuna with negative, not her personaly but things around her. If anyone hates anyone in figure skating, then I think it's Yuna who might hate some of her fans for what the did to her image. They act like they own her. Everybody around Yuna is bad. Her rivals are bad, her coach Orser was bad, now her boyfriend is bad. Maybe Yuna would do all she could to get rid of some of her fans. No, I don't want to die with this feeling. I would watch Adelina. No negative karma.

 

[Antilopa]

Fun question. If I wanted to die with joy, remember how young, fresh I was, I would watch Adelina. If I wanted to die thinking what an old angry woman I am, I would watch Yuna. Adelina, Mao, Caro come with positive feeling. Yuna with negative, not her personaly but things around her. If anyone hates anyone in figure skating, then I think it's Yuna who might hate some of her fans for what the did to her image. They act like they own her. Everybody around Yuna is bad. Her rivals are bad, her coach Orser was bad, now her boyfriend is bad. Maybe Yuna would do all she could to get rid of some of her fans. No, I don't want to die with this feeling. I would watch Adelina. No negative karma.

++++!!!

 

[cooper]

Fun question. If I wanted to die with joy, remember how young, fresh I was, I would watch Adelina. If I wanted to die thinking what an old angry woman I am, I would watch Yuna. Adelina, Mao, Caro come with positive feeling. Yuna with negative, not her personaly but things around her. If anyone hates anyone in figure skating, then I think it's Yuna who might hate some of her fans for what the did to her image. They act like they own her. Everybody around Yuna is bad. Her rivals are bad, her coach Orser was bad, now her boyfriend is bad. Maybe Yuna would do all she could to get rid of some of her fans. No, I don't want to die with this feeling. I would watch Adelina. No negative karma.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/smithcommajohn/constantine_5.jpg

yuna fans, people, her team = evil. how dare they.

 

[starrynight]

But then the Ten Commandments prohibit theft.

 

[mskater93]

Under the 6.0 system, what was the difference between 5.7 and 5.8 in terms of difficulty, execution, choreography, expression, etc? Imo, the corruption problem back then stemmed not from the criteria, but from the scale, which was simply not broad enough to address the finer differences in technical and artistic merit, which resulted in ambiguity, which made the system prone to corruption.

Under 6.0, the numbers were merely placeholders. Skater A was the best overall with a 5.4/5.5 from one judge and a 5.8/5.9 from another. So long as no one's scores on that judges' card were higher, it didn't matter. If you want to see this in action, go look at the scores on IN from Eastern Adult Sectionals Bronze Men. One judge's median mark was MUCH higher than the others', but that judge's placements were still in line with the rest of the panel.

 

[Nadya]

Ok guys seriously. Laying on your death bed, would you like to watch Yuna or Adelina perform? That's all really matters. Adelina delivered a good program for her level and talent, but it's just how she actually think she beat Yuna by her talent and technique is just laughable. For that matter of fact, I am sure little Koreans are going to be raged and all of them want to somehow to get the medal back for Yuna. I just hope that this controversy really fuels the Korean skaters because their work ethic is tremendous as many of you already know. Things will change my friend. Things will change. And btw Karma is a *****.

Actually, on my death bed, I don't want to see any of them. Not that "what you want to see on your death bed" is a judging criterion.

 

[Nadya]

Ok PEOPLE. The amount of babbling and comparing skaters here is ridiculous.

YUNA is one of those people who come once in awhile. She is in her own league. I'm sorry that Adelina has to go through this, but she is just not even comparable by any means. If judging does change, or the fact that it's being questioned worldwide with even former figure skaters and judges, we already know that there is a problem. The talent and beauty seen in Yuna is not calculated through some numbers, but through your naked eyes. It's very simple.

Kim has no monopoly on talent or beauty. It's an equal opportunity field. There's dozens of talented, beautiful people out there.