The Judging Controversy Thread

[ILuvYuna]

but with the *crap* judging system that is not enough because you also have to have the difficult entrance/exit to get the extra GOE.

*fixed*

According to http://www.isu.org/en/single-and-pair-skating-and-ice-dance/isu-judging-system/introduction

The Technical Specialist....identifies......the specific Levels of Difficulty of certain performed elements (e.g. spins, footwork,)

[....]

The Judge then simply grades the quality of the element

Let's seee Who can tell me what the DIFFICULTY of the FOOTWORK in a jump entrance has to do with the QUALITY of the JUMP?


Anybody?

Nobody, because difficulty and quality are distinct and neither is dependent on the other.

Perhaps the DIFFICULTY of the footwork leading into a jump entrance should have LEVELS, and be determined by the Technical Specialist (happy codifying, ISU!).

"The Judge then simply grades the quality of the element" lol.

I swear, either they are too LAZY to make this system logical and coherent - or they're just a bunch of FIRST. RATE. IDIOTS!

 

[usethis2]

What kind of judge can give Yulia's jumps +2/+3 GOE? I've re-watched both her SP and FS with the protocols on the side. In her FS, there are only two judges who gave 0 GOE for her first 3(f)Lz+3T combo. 3 judges gave +2 and 2 judges gave +3. I wanted to scratch my eyes out. I have zero clue as to how anyone can find 4 or 6 bullet points for her jumps.

Check out her protocols and you will see a similar trend that you see on Adelina's. It's unbelievable.

 

[ice coverage]

... According to http://www.isu.org/en/synchronized-skating/isu-judging-system ...

Have not been following the thread, but you are citing a document re synchro skating??

 

[caelum]

Yuna compares favorably to the competition usually because (a) she is not competing against any top level competition or (b) the top competitors implode in either the SP or the LP. Here, three skaters delivered strong SP and LPs. You yourself said Caro should have won so you know that if Caro hits her jumps well she deserves high GOE. Adelina gets it from difficult entrances and height. Yuna does little into her jumps; they have great quality but with the judging system that is not enough because you also have to have the difficult entrance/exit to get the extra GOE.

Which entrances were especially difficult? Her first triple flip, but that's about it. Also, difficult entrance + height would generate a +1 GOE in the current judging system. I mean, would anyone describe any of Adelina's jumps as having good extension, nice flow, effortlessness, and musicality? I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it would be hard for me to take anyone seriously who would defend any of Adelina's jumps on these 4 qualities - and without those qualities it's very difficult to even hit +2 GOE. She probably deserves +2 on her opening flip and the 3Lo, but every other jump should be +1 at most under the GOE requirements (or maybe if I could control the whole judging panel a +1.25)

 

[ILuvYuna]

Have not been following the thread, but you are citing a document re synchro skating??

I googled for that one and didn't pay attention, so my bad

I'll go and find a better source -- or maybe you can save me the time and explain how it's different in singles?

As far as I've been able to tell, the Tech panel is supposed to discern difficulty, and the Judges are supposed to grade execution (quality).

 

[usethis2]

@caelum: Try GOEs on Yulia's jumps. They are just as impressive.

Terrible flow - Check
Flat take-off edge - Check (when it's not "e")
Shaky landing - Check
Tilting air poisition - Check
Laborious combo - Check
Ugly high kick - Check
Complete disregard of music - Check
Height - :sarcasm:
Distance - :disapp:


+2s and +3s abound. To think that she'd have been on the podium had it not been for the falls.. Shudder..

 

[sk8in]

Yuna compares favorably to the competition usually because (a) she is not competing against any top level competition or (b) the top competitors implode in either the SP or the LP. Here, three skaters delivered strong SP and LPs. You yourself said Caro should have won so you know that if Caro hits her jumps well she deserves high GOE. Adelina gets it from difficult entrances and height. Yuna does little into her jumps; they have great quality but with the judging system that is not enough because you also have to have the difficult entrance/exit to get the extra GOE.

I would say just having a difficult entrance (although Adelina did not have difficult entrances) is not enough if everything about your jump execution is mediocre.

 

[ILuvYuna]

@caelum: Try GOEs on Yulia's jumps. They are just as impressive.

Terrible flow - Check
Flat take-off edge - Check (when it's not "e")
Shaky landing - Check
Tilting air poisition - Check
Laborious combo - Check
Ugly high kick - Check
Complete disregard of music - Check
Height - :sarcasm:
Distance - :disapp:


+2s and +3s abound. To think that she'd have been on the podium had it not been for the falls.. Shudder..

I want to see this as an all-new video example on ISU's youtube channel, and I want to see it with computer graphic analysis, hilighting everything that the judges are looking for in a perfect +3 execution. :yes:

ETA: to golden411 - proper source found, link fixed (it's virtually the same document, and the parts I quoted are exaclty the same).

 

[Mathman]

Right or wrong, judges do tend to give higher GOEs on more difficult elements. An average quad with no errors will always get +1 GOE just for being a quad.

 

[pangtongfan]

What kind of judge can give Yulia's jumps +2/+3 GOE?

A panel headed by Shekhovtseva and Balkov is capable of anything. A Russian skater could sit on the ice and blow bubbles for 5 minutes and still get a medal if they were the only russian entry.

 

[ILuvYuna]

Right or wrong, judges do tend to give higher GOEs on more difficult elements. An average quad with no errors will always get +1 GOE just for being a quad.

Isn't that what the 0 is supposed to be for? What is Yuna's zero on the triple flip supposed to mean?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Have not been following the thread, but you are citing a document re synchro skating??

Yuna ubers will manipulate facts to make their point. I wouldn't be surprised if they cited rules from Miss Universe to argue the prettiest should win.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I would say just having a difficult entrance (although Adelina did not have difficult entrances) is not enough if everything about your jump execution is mediocre.

What skaters from 7 - 24 do you think Adelina's jumps are mediocre compared to? She has the highest jumps in the field. She is 3rd or 4th in ice coverage on the jumps. She has the most difficult entrances of the top 6. What about any of that do you consider average?

 

[ILuvYuna]

Yuna ubers will manipulate facts to make their point. I wouldn't be surprised if they cited rules from Miss Universe to argue the prettiest should win.

ETA means edited to add

ETA: to golden411 - proper source found, link fixed (it's virtually the same document, and the parts I quoted are exaclty the same).

You accused me of manipulating the facts. Prove it.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

You accused me of manipulating the facts. Prove it.

I didn't realize I was responsible for you posting SYNCRO rules. Sorry about that.

 

[Mathman]

I understand what you're saying, but let's conduct a very simple thought experiment

Open this video in another tab, and I want you to do only one thing the entire time - look at her knees - ESPECIALLY during the step sequence and jump entrances: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K8b7cHXyWc

The component explanation on the isu's website lists the first criteria for SS as "Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement."

Question: do you think she could bend her knees just a little bit more during the step sequence - so be careful not to compare her to anybody else - compare only what you see during the step sequence and jump entrance, to the places in the program where her knees display a greater degree of bend and rhythmic action (like crossovers)?***

Thank you. That was very cool. Yes, I can see that. Very interesting.

I usually feel like a dope when people post videos and say, see? That jump was under-rotated by 110 degrees. That edge flopped over to the inside at the last moment, their reverse lasso lift was held too long. We won't even get into, was that a counter or a rocker (a what?).

But yeah, Adelina's knees were not very bendy. I mean, not Maria Butyrskaya stiff, or anything like that…

It was a fine performance, though. I don't blame Sotnikova fans for being proud of her. I am, too.

 

[caelum]

What skaters from 7 - 24 do you think Adelina's jumps are mediocre compared to? She has the highest jumps in the field. She is 3rd or 4th in ice coverage on the jumps. She has the most difficult entrances of the top 6. What about any of that do you consider average?

It's not about what "average" is, it's about meeting the well-defined criteria. She had a difficult entrance on the opening flip, none of her other entrances were especially difficult. Difficult entrance is 1 bullet point. Height is 1 bullet points. That's +1 GOE. GOE is not a general impression score, it's for meeting defined criteria which Adelina does not meet. This is not a criticism, it's really difficult to reach +2. I'm curious, what 4 features of the 8 defined criteria do you believe Adelina meets to deserve +2 on her jumps? I'd say only her opening flip and 3Lo deserve +2. (Under the criteria, +3 is nearly impossible for any skater, so I'm not going to take seriously any argument that argues Adelina deserves +3s).

 

[ILuvYuna]

I didn't realize I was responsible for you posting SYNCRO rules. Sorry about that.

The rules I quoted from both the synchro and singles/pair documents, are exactly the same, so your point is moot.

Furthermore, saying that someone is being manipulative is accusing them of acting in bad faith. I'm not responsible for what you choose to say here, so do you stand by your accusation? If so, prove that I was being manipulative and didn't just make a simple and innocent mistake (you know, like I admitted to before you ever jumped in to accuse me

I googled for that one and didn't pay attention, so my bad

I'll go and find a better source -- or maybe you can save me the time and explain how it's different in singles?

As far as I've been able to tell, the Tech panel is supposed to discern difficulty, and the Judges are supposed to grade execution (quality).

 

[Nadya]

A panel headed by Shekhovtseva and Balkov is capable of anything. A Russian skater could sit on the ice and blow bubbles for 5 minutes and still get a medal if they were the only russian entry.

The panel wasn't "headed" by anyone. All judges on the panel have equal status.

 

[cooper]

^one is known cheater..