The Judging Controversy Thread

[leafygreens]

The point is that it is too subjective just to award an extra gold. In 2002, an actual criteria was used to award Sale and Pelltier an extra gold (the French judge's vote was vacated leaving the ordinals tied at 4-4. Since there was a tie for first, another gold was awarded). What objective criteria would be used to award Yuna another gold? She deserved to win, but I just don't see it.

There is plenty of objective criteria laid out in the lack of +3's for Yuna and the footwork not being level 4 in the previous 245 pages. And Adelina not being penalized for jumps. Been discussed to death already.

As far as vacating the gold, it would not just be unfair to Adelina but would be punitive to her. It would really be setting a dangerous precedent.

I said that vacating was a joke. I was merely responding in-kind to the thought of Gracie getting a gold (ridiculous.)

 

[gmyers]

How could they give the medal to Yuna? The entire event would have to be rejudged and that would not be fair to any of the skaters (as it would have to be done via video recording). You keep worrying about the blasted medal and attempting to justify Adelina's skate instead of admitting that their were some irregularities in the scoring that need to be examined to see if the system should be changed. Adelina's gold medal is secure. Now let's just fix this!

Exactly. It is an incredulous display of hypocrisy to demand proof here and then to be against any measure to acquire proof when it comes down to it. It's gotta be either amnesia or really disgusting minds.

No one seriously believe there will/should be new medalists. What many want is a reform. It need not (and should not) be limited to Russian Federation.

I strongly support an investigation into all the judges and the judging. If its proven judges did corrupt things the medal must be taken away from stonikova. She can get a "good skate" certificate or have the whole ladies event decertified and stricken from the official record. I think erasing the event from the record might be good if anything is found. It could be made unofficial. Then all the medals might be taken away. Or they keep the medals but there is an asterisk on the whole competiton. But if something is found corrupt adleina isn't responsible but no way should have the gold anymore.

 

[capcomeback]

I strongly support an investigation into all the judges and the judging. If its proven judges did corrupt things the medal must be taken away from stonikova. She can get a "good skate" certificate or have the whole ladies event decertified and stricken from the official record. I think erasing the event from the record might be good if anything is found. It could be made unofficial. Then all the medals might be taken away. Or they keep the medals but there is an asterisk on the whole competiton. But if something is found corrupt adleina isn't responsible but no way should have the gold anymore.

I strongly disagree. it would be totally unfair and more importantly punitive to a young woman who did nothing wrong. For better or worse, Adelina won the gold. It's hers regardless and she shouldn't have it taken away because of possible incompetence or corruption. Now let's figure out how to make the system better.

 

[gmyers]

I strongly disagree. it would be totally unfair and more importantly punitive to a young woman who did nothing wrong. For better or worse, Adelina won the gold. It's hers regardless and she shouldn't have it taken away because of possible incompetence or corruption. Now let's figure out how to make the system better.

Her gold if the investigation shows corruption is fake and phony and she shouldn't keep it. I don't know if an ioc official would have to go to where she is and collect it or it would be mailed back but at the very least its official status Shoukd be removed. The whole event decertified. She would have a phony illegitimate gold if corruption was found. The idea that people believe she could keep it is kind of wierd.

 

[gkelly]

If the whole event is decertified, then all three medalists would lose their medals and all the other results 4th and below would also be voided.

 

[Anna K.]

If the whole event is decertified, then all three medalists would lose their medals and all the other results 4th and below would also be voided.

In fact, all figure skating events should be decertified and the sport removed from Olympics program until ISU sorts it out because it’s the fault of the system that is not transparent and protects fraudsters.

Taking the gold medal away from one and giving it to the other (or issuing silver-golden medals like after SLC) would be but a political go and not the triumph of justice in any way.

Having said that: I know very well that nobody wants justice if there’s the price to pay for it. It’s only human to accept fraud instead and that’s the reason why nothing will be done. Just saying.

 

[gmyers]

If the whole event is decertified, then all three medalists would lose their medals and all the other results 4th and below would also be voided.

I wouldn't like it but it would be for the best.

 

[JayW]

I know very well that nobody wants justice if there’s the price to pay for it. It’s only human to accept fraud instead and that’s the reason why nothing will be done. Just saying.

Agree. Regardless how much fans are arguing here, nothing will be done. The sytem was designed the way to protect fraudsters. Even worse any change will be paid at the price of those innocences.

 

[jaylee]

I strongly disagree. it would be totally unfair and more importantly punitive to a young woman who did nothing wrong. For better or worse, Adelina won the gold. It's hers regardless and she shouldn't have it taken away because of possible incompetence or corruption. Now let's figure out how to make the system better.

Um, clearly, the poster is crying wolf about the event being decertified and taking away the OGM in order to encourage people to not support any kind of protest/complaint/investigation into the results at all. Basically demanding that people accept the results or void all the results.

I doubt the ISU will admit any wrongdoing at all. There will be no duplicate OGM, there will be no re-scoring of the event. There might be changes in the scoring system and maybe we won't see certain judges on the next important ladies competition, but I doubt there will be anything else.

 

[JayW]

Unfortunately, or fortunately, there is no big bucks in this sport. Otherwise, I am sure some money hungry lawyers will jump in this controversy.

 

[gmyers]

Um, clearly, the poster is crying wolf about the event being decertified and taking away the OGM in order to encourage people to not support any kind of protest/complaint/investigation into the results at all. Basically demanding that people accept the results or void all the results.

I doubt the ISU will admit any wrongdoing at all. There will be no duplicate OGM, there will be no re-scoring of the event. There might be changes in the scoring system and maybe we won't see certain judges on the next important ladies competition, but I doubt there will be anything else.

No this is nonsense. If there is proof that balkov and shekhovtseva got together and said they will give sotnikova 9.5 and over to boost corridor and make everyone fall in line and then got together with Lakernik and baranov to fix the technical angle to make sure all sotnikovas levels were high and no jump flaws all sotnikovas results should be thrown out! Maybe the whole event.

 

[capcomeback]

There is plenty of objective criteria laid out in the lack of +3's for Yuna and the footwork not being level 4 in the previous 245 pages. And Adelina not being penalized for jumps. Been discussed to death already.



I said that vacating was a joke. I was merely responding in-kind to the thought of Gracie getting a gold (ridiculous.)

I know, but where's the ? ha ha.

Seriously, there really is not acceptable criteria without re scoring the event. You can't just re-score Adelina and Yuna. Because people will question Carolina's scoring (and potentially Gracie, Julia's and Mao's placements).

The best thing to do is to accept the outcome, though question the process (and punish any wrongdoers if any are discovered!). Though to quote Louis from Casablanca would say. "I'm shocked... shocked to find gambling is going on in here..."

Of course our response to Speedy would be the same as the casino manager's to Louis " "Your winnings, sir."

 

[R.D.]

Agree. Regardless how much fans are arguing here, nothing will be done. The sytem was designed the way to protect fraudsters. Even worse any change will be paid at the price of those innocences.

Basically.

And thanks to whomever did the judges' analysis a couple pages back. VERY interesting stuff - If I had the time I might have taken a shot at something like that but I simply don't. Much better than the back-and-forth bickering anyways.

 

[markmchen]

If I may ask, what are the possible benefits of using absolute value over sum of squares?


I am DYING to know

Sum of squares is generally considered more accurate. But not a huge difference.

Regarding judges who diverged from the average, ok here you go:

Adelina GOE Scores:
Judges 2 & 7 were 1 stdev above avg. in favor of Adelina
Judges 5 & 6 were 1/2 stdev above avg. in favor of Adelina
Judges 3 & 8 were 1 stdev below avg. against Adelina

Adelina PCS Scores:
Judges 1, 2, 5, and 7 were 1 stdev above avg. in favor of Adelina
Judges 4 & 8 were 1 stdev below avg. against Adelina

My interpretation... there was likely a 2-4 judge block for Adelina and a 2 judge block against Adelina. This large of variance off the mean is not just random. There were clearly biases (in both directions).

 

[markmchen]

@markmchen

This is definitely a mess. I certainly appreciate any efforts to make sense of this. My suspicion is that the issue lies within the insanely uneven GOE's that both Yuna and Adelina got in comparison to Caro and Mao. I tried to add up all the GOE's into one total and compare the two highest scores that weren't outliers and tried to prove something to no avail. All I came up with was two judges went crazy over Adelina and Yuna and no one in particular did for Caro and especially Mao. I just wound up :scratch:

Don't get me wrong...Adelina was the most over scored but there is one judge in particular that went bonkers for Yuna. I know it gets thrown out but wow. As much as I love Yuna I just don't think that was one of the best skates ever. It's just my opinion mind you.

Sam-Skwantch,

I ran the same analysis for Caro and Mao:

You are correct that there were fewer divergent judges for Caro and Mao then Adelina. On GOEs, Mao had 1 favorable judge and 1 negative judge. Otherwise pretty tight judging around mean. On GOEs, Caro had 1 favorable judge and 2 negative judges. Judging blocks were not as strong or as clear.

 

[ILuvYuna]

Sum of squares is generally considered more accurate. But not a huge difference.

Okay, just making sure there wasn't some shady reason for going with absolute value. I still think it's totally bogus that you can have two judges score a GoE to a difference of 4 bullets, and neither of them is questioned about it because they are close enough to the average For major competitions, at least, that kind of thing should be reviewed...

Regarding judges who diverged from the average, ok here you go:

Adelina GOE Scores:
Judges 2 & 7 were 1 stdev above avg. in favor of Adelina
Judges 5 & 6 were 1/2 stdev above avg. in favor of Adelina
Judges 3 & 8 were 1 stdev below avg. against Adelina

Adelina PCS Scores:
Judges 1, 2, 5, and 7 were 1 stdev above avg. in favor of Adelina
Judges 4 & 8 were 1 stdev below avg. against Adelina

My interpretation... there was likely a 2-4 judge block for Adelina and a 2 judge block against Adelina. This large of variance off the mean is not just random.

Yup, that confirms what I suspected after skimming over TES:

I would single out columns 2, 5, 6, and 7 as part of the strategy

And then after looking more closely at PCS:

Revising this after taking a closer look. Colulmn 1 has suspiciously consistent GoE scores, and very inflated PCS, while Column 6 shows more range in the TES scores, and more reservation in the PCS (ie, seems more realistic).

So yeah, new opinion: if there was cheating, I would suspect 1,2,5, and 7 on Sotnikova's correspond to 2,4,7, and 8 on Kim's.

***ETA Nevermind this part LOL.

There were clearly biases (in both directions).

But is it really bias if the score is an accurate reflection of the skater's performance? I think that's the real question in all this - whether Adelina actually earned those pcs scores - whether Yuna's GoE's were artificially low - for me, that's what ultimately decides whether any given column shows bias or fairness/accuracy. I feel like Yuna's scores were suppressed in both GoE, but especially in pcs, and Adelina's way way inflated in pcs (and pretty much all of the commentators acknowledged this at some point before and/or during the competition - everyone knew that Adelina had an extra jump and better spins, but she was not in Yuna's and Caro's league when it came to pcs -- I still say that was the real clincher, I'll try to provide a breakdown of Adelina's scores tonight so we can get a better picture...)

 

[capcomeback]

Sum of squares is generally considered more accurate. But not a huge difference.

Regarding judges who diverged from the average, ok here you go:

Adelina GOE Scores:
Judges 2 & 7 were 1 stdev above avg. in favor of Adelina
Judges 5 & 6 were 1/2 stdev above avg. in favor of Adelina
Judges 3 & 8 were 1 stdev below avg. against Adelina

Adelina PCS Scores:
Judges 1, 2, 5, and 7 were 1 stdev above avg. in favor of Adelina
Judges 4 & 8 were 1 stdev below avg. against Adelina

My interpretation... there was likely a 2-4 judge block for Adelina and a 2 judge block against Adelina. This large of variance off the mean is not just random. There were clearly biases (in both directions).

The question that comes to mind is how do the negative judges scores compare in terms of PCS to other events that Adelina skated in this season? While skaters can have great days technically (hitting all their jumps etc.). in theory, the fundamentals of a skater's PCS should not change greatly over the course of a few months in most cases (or to paraphrase Kurt Browning "How could she learn to skate better overnight?"). Is it possible that Adelina was not scored negatively by these judges; just scored more in line with how she had been previously scored?

 

[markmchen]

Interesting analysis. A couple of things come out of this

A. Did Adelina receive the the highest total GOEs EVER in the history of this sport based on that performance? Surpass anything by Chan, Takahashi, Hanyu, Kim, Mao, Kostner?

Hey os168

I checked Adelina's Sochi performance against Yuna's Vancouver performance. (Too lazy to check against all history, but that is the ladies world record performance) In terms of raw GOEs (before weighting etc.), Adelina averaged 22.78 across 12 elements in her FS. Yuna averaged (in 2010) 20.78 across 12 elements. Adelina's average is even more impressive in that she had one element with negative GOEs. Excluding that negative element, Adelina average a GOE score of 2.2 for the rest of her elements. Yuna's Vancouver performance averaged 1.7 per element.

 

[ILuvYuna]

You are correct that there were fewer divergent judges for Caro and Mao then Adelina. On GOEs, Mao had 1 favorable judge and 1 negative judge. Otherwise pretty tight judging around mean. On GOEs, Caro had 1 favorable judge and 2 negative judges. Judging blocks were not as strong or as clear.

You might want to disregard the spins, step sequence, and choreo sequence, and zero-in on the jumps (big base values) as they have higher multipliers, which means greater impact on the GoE points. That, and pcs (Since that's where Adelina needed the most help going into the free), specifically, the P/E, Ch/C, and Int components (which were the most inflated for Adelina).

 

[R.D.]

...Excluding that negative element, Adelina average a GOE score of 2.2 for the rest of her elements. Yuna's Vancouver performance averaged 1.7 per element.

!! wow.