I'm getting shivers just thinking about it! :3 The Kween could do her signature spiral, Sasha her spins, and Yu-na, her layback camel and a 3-3-
The Kween and the Queen
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I'm getting shivers just thinking about it! :3 The Kween could do her signature spiral, Sasha her spins, and Yu-na, her layback camel and a 3-3-
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
David Wilson... if you are reading this, please do us fan a big favour... we want to see this baaaad!! Probably is going to be tricky to handle all the egos, but I am sure Yuna would do the courteous thing and let her Idols and guests shine.
It is really hard to compete at the top level for a long time. When I used to compete for the piano, I always had a fear of messing up or loosing to the competitors I beat before. I was constantly worried about not playing well enough to satisfy everyone's expectation. I worried about my repatoir, dress, shoes and hairstyle, color of lipstick and so on. I worried about everything. I was constantly thinking about new competitors and I hated to go to practice everyday especially before the competition. I was happy when I became sick because that was a good excuse to justify my
bad playing. Everytime I won, the presure became bigger and bigger. Everytime I lost, the stress got stronger and stronger. And I am talking about just little college piano competition and some small scale national and international competition. I was not even that high level.I only did it for few years.I just can not imagine what Michelle had to go through everyday and every competition for so many years at that level. I mean she has been monitored by millions of people and media all the time. She was competing against the world's best.She was always expected to win. She had to live up to so many people's expectaions. Yet, she has never disappointed me in her career. She always gave the best for her each performance. Of course, they were not always perfect, but I never saw her giving up in the middle. She never made excuses for anything. I know she could keep on going only because she loved skating.Trying to win the gold medal was only a part of her motivation to go on. And everytime I saw her skating, I jusl could feel her passion and love for skating. I do not think she had amazing spins or spirals or super huge jumps, but there was always something special about her that I have not come across with anyone for a long time. I believe that the longevity is one of the important factor to measure one's greatness.
bad playing. Everytime I won, the presure became bigger and bigger. Everytime I lost, the stress got stronger and stronger. And I am talking about just little college piano competition and some small scale national and international competition. I was not even that high level.I only did it for few years.I just can not imagine what Michelle had to go through everyday and every competition for so many years at that level. I mean she has been monitored by millions of people and media all the time. She was competing against the world's best.She was always expected to win. She had to live up to so many people's expectaions. Yet, she has never disappointed me in her career. She always gave the best for her each performance. Of course, they were not always perfect, but I never saw her giving up in the middle. She never made excuses for anything. I know she could keep on going only because she loved skating.Trying to win the gold medal was only a part of her motivation to go on. And everytime I saw her skating, I jusl could feel her passion and love for skating. I do not think she had amazing spins or spirals or super huge jumps, but there was always something special about her that I have not come across with anyone for a long time. I believe that the longevity is one of the important factor to measure one's greatness.
There is indeed something cool about longevity in a sport that favors kids. For one thing, as we get to know someone, we become more sensitive to what she is communicating. We are more likely to develop an emotional tie.
An example: I remember when I was more interested in Olympic gymnastics. Because of the demands of the sport, athletes tended to wear out or outgrow their strength after one Games. There wasn't much continuity from Olympics to Olympics. (Not much gymnastics was shown on TV between Olympics, so I never got to know anyone in off-years.) I have a pretty good memory for names. But I rarely heard the same names four years later. Champions (highly praised by expert announcers) generally gleamed brightly during one Games and then were gone forever. I didn't get much of an impression of their greatness. On the other hand, someone like Svetlana Khorkina, because she stayed around, became someone who impressed me.
However, my impression of gymnastics was probably inaccurate. If I had known more about the sport, I might have valued the fast-fading stars with more understanding. Though you know that I admire Michelle--so I'm not biased in YuNa's favor--I have to point out that someone who's great in one or two seasons can possibly end up with the immortals even if she retires soon afterward. If her greatness involves more than just breaking a record that can then be broken again, she will be remembered by viewers capable of appreciating the impact of what she has done.
An example: I remember when I was more interested in Olympic gymnastics. Because of the demands of the sport, athletes tended to wear out or outgrow their strength after one Games. There wasn't much continuity from Olympics to Olympics. (Not much gymnastics was shown on TV between Olympics, so I never got to know anyone in off-years.) I have a pretty good memory for names. But I rarely heard the same names four years later. Champions (highly praised by expert announcers) generally gleamed brightly during one Games and then were gone forever. I didn't get much of an impression of their greatness. On the other hand, someone like Svetlana Khorkina, because she stayed around, became someone who impressed me.
However, my impression of gymnastics was probably inaccurate. If I had known more about the sport, I might have valued the fast-fading stars with more understanding. Though you know that I admire Michelle--so I'm not biased in YuNa's favor--I have to point out that someone who's great in one or two seasons can possibly end up with the immortals even if she retires soon afterward. If her greatness involves more than just breaking a record that can then be broken again, she will be remembered by viewers capable of appreciating the impact of what she has done.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
Hi PROKOFIEV, I greatly respect the longevity of Michelle's career, especially her impact and achievements in the skating world and beyond. Look how she impacted the current generation of ladies, including Yuna, Mirai, and Caroline Zhang who all went on record to say it was Michelle who they idolises and impacted them the most. To a certain extent, you can even seen her influence in aspects of Yuna and Mirai's performances. And another thing that is not quantifiable is how much she is loved by all. That itself spoke great volumes how she touched people like all great champions should.
Michelle's style of skating is very transparent and able to deliver how she feel to the audience unlike no other. Chen Lu came very close with her Butterfly lovers, because it is emotionally honest and the cultural context clearly spoke to her, and she was able to do deliver it only she can.
This transparency is something Yuna doesn't appear to do. Therefore may be leads to the feeling that she is indifferent or even cold. The closest she was able to deliver how she truly feels as oppose to how a character would feel is probably Gershwin, I think there were a photo close up of her performance that showed her tearing up during her step up sequences. Some posters remarked it due to the more reserved culture, and that may be true, especially when compares to the Americans who are encouraged to discuss and express your feelings rather than bottled them up. Of course, thing doesn't help when she was shy, so externalising and hide behind a character is the much more preferred style of artistic expression.
Or may be it is just a style difference. How shall I put this. I suppose it is a little bit like comparing Meryl Streep of acting vs. Joan Allen (another one of my favourite actresses). One is externally aware, emotionally, transparent and easy to read; the one is more internal steely but has an quietness with great undercurrent of passion and fire. So when she is on, it is all about the eyes, and she delivers them on impacts. They are both powerful in different ways.
Michelle's style of skating is very transparent and able to deliver how she feel to the audience unlike no other. Chen Lu came very close with her Butterfly lovers, because it is emotionally honest and the cultural context clearly spoke to her, and she was able to do deliver it only she can.
This transparency is something Yuna doesn't appear to do. Therefore may be leads to the feeling that she is indifferent or even cold. The closest she was able to deliver how she truly feels as oppose to how a character would feel is probably Gershwin, I think there were a photo close up of her performance that showed her tearing up during her step up sequences. Some posters remarked it due to the more reserved culture, and that may be true, especially when compares to the Americans who are encouraged to discuss and express your feelings rather than bottled them up. Of course, thing doesn't help when she was shy, so externalising and hide behind a character is the much more preferred style of artistic expression.
Or may be it is just a style difference. How shall I put this. I suppose it is a little bit like comparing Meryl Streep of acting vs. Joan Allen (another one of my favourite actresses). One is externally aware, emotionally, transparent and easy to read; the one is more internal steely but has an quietness with great undercurrent of passion and fire. So when she is on, it is all about the eyes, and she delivers them on impacts. They are both powerful in different ways.
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L
lowtherlore
Guest
I agree that cultural differences and Yuna’s reserved personality may have contributed to the perceived differences in Michelle’s and Yuna’s styles. Which is more likeable is up to one’s liking. But I have no doubt about the passion and competitive drive that lie underneath Yuna's skin. Her entire career she has not missed a podium finish, even when skating with severe pain, winning most of times. That says for her competitive ability, and her strengths seem to be hidden.
Talking about the passion readily visible during the performances, can one say van Gogh's love/passion for painting is greater than that of Cezanne's, for the superficially perceivable difference in the degree of "passion" displayed on the canvases? Or a Pollock's more so than a Rothko's? I am not to say that Michelle is a van Gogh and Yuna is a Cezanne. They are of the different styles. Which is more enjoyable depends on one's taste. Which has more profound and far reaching influence is up to a collective appraisal.
Regarding “getting there” wrt where Michelle was, I think Yuna is already there in many aspects, as far as her own properties are concerned, although I do think Michelle deserves to be called the greatest of all time overall. And I am so excited at the news that Michelle will be skating TWO new programs in the upcoming show with Yuna and Sasha in Korea. Her sheer connection with the audience, the sense of joy and passion she brings to her performance is unparalleled. At the same time, I have tremendous respect for what Yuna has achieved in her relatively short career so far. Her ability to impress the crowd is underestimated at times. Yuna of the recent years absolutely owned the majority of the audience and commentators. Alongside the jumps that vault with the speed and the abandon that seemingly defies a survival instinct, her uncanny ability to skate to the subtle nuances in the flows of the music is truly special. And she has that certain je ne sais quoi, that comes with her physique and grace in her movements and demeanour.
It would be difficult, if not impossible, for anyone to match Michelle’s longevity and the accompanying “body of work”. That includes Yuna, who having won that OGM, is in a position to find further motivation to continue. One thing I like about Yuna is that she has tried different music and pursued various characters each season so far. And she did it all convincingly. Kudos to Orser and Wilson for that. In a recent interview, Yuna said she would try new things and characters in the coming seasons. Anything she does from here on would be a treat for her fans, and hopefully her own “body of work” keeps growing and stands the test of time, like Michelle’s.
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Great post.
There must be a cultural difference. Being a Korean, I am more related to YuNa's performance. Sometimes, Kwan looked to me a bit overly excessive in emoting.
Comparing figure skating (a sports with artistic presentation) to greatness in music on the basis of longevity is ????
Is Chopin's contribution to music less than LvB, heck yes regardless of the age they died. It had nothing to do with LvB's deafness. Ppl who like to put down Chopin as just a salon music composer love to point out that he mainly wrote for piano (and a few cello /piano pieces). I will come to his defense because Chopin elevated salon music to high art. But regardless of one's definiton of what makes a composer great, one must include excellence in all genre as one criteria. LvB helped move music forward from the classical period to the romantic age. He was a supreme master in composing variations of motif. (just hear what he had done with a four note motif announced at the beginning of the 5th symphony). He advanced the genre of string quartet. His piano sonata is one of the highest achievement in western art. His piano cto (as a whole) is probably only second to Mozart (some ppl may debate and say his is the best). He wrote only one violin concerto, but is considered as the capstone of the genre. (For many violinists trying to learn different VCs, LvB's VC is considered as the peak of Mt Everest). He only wrote one opera, but that is one more than Chopin). He wrote several mass, and Missa Solemnis is considered one of the greatest mass ever written (rank high up there with Bach's Mass in B minor).
Comparing Schubert who died very young to LvB, one may have a better case.
Putting Wozart vs LvB will make an extremely close case. WAM died at 35 (Chopin died at 39). Depending who you talk to some may consider WAM edged out LvB in greatnes, other may think LvB edged out WAM
I don't know whether Chopin was discounted during his life, I know Mozart (as a composer was).
When one compares LvB and Chopin (Chopin was born exactly 200 yrs ago, LvB born even earlier), one notes that both composers work last for a long time. vOn this 200th bday of Chopin several pianists have celebrated by recording his music. LvB just had taken more genre up to a height that is almost unmatched (symphony, concertos, including piano concerto, violin concerto, triple concerto for violin, piano, and cello, piano sonata, piano cto, string quartet, sacred music etc) Chopin OTOH elevated salon piano music to high art. (Where are the symphonies? Concertos, quartets, opera?) Chopin wrote some cello pieces for cello and piano, mostly arrangement of pieces written by other composers, and his cello compositions are not considered as significant.
Anyway in consideration of greatness in music, longevity is not a criteria because music is an art. A sport like figure skating, longevity is a factor, it is difficult to stay at the top for long, because sports is forever moving forward with the new generation jumping higher and running faster. Mk defended her world title, she is the only skater to do that after Kristi. Lets see if kyn can win another world title and successfully defend the title. WC 2010 was her best chance, and she failed
Is Chopin's contribution to music less than LvB, heck yes regardless of the age they died. It had nothing to do with LvB's deafness. Ppl who like to put down Chopin as just a salon music composer love to point out that he mainly wrote for piano (and a few cello /piano pieces). I will come to his defense because Chopin elevated salon music to high art. But regardless of one's definiton of what makes a composer great, one must include excellence in all genre as one criteria. LvB helped move music forward from the classical period to the romantic age. He was a supreme master in composing variations of motif. (just hear what he had done with a four note motif announced at the beginning of the 5th symphony). He advanced the genre of string quartet. His piano sonata is one of the highest achievement in western art. His piano cto (as a whole) is probably only second to Mozart (some ppl may debate and say his is the best). He wrote only one violin concerto, but is considered as the capstone of the genre. (For many violinists trying to learn different VCs, LvB's VC is considered as the peak of Mt Everest). He only wrote one opera, but that is one more than Chopin). He wrote several mass, and Missa Solemnis is considered one of the greatest mass ever written (rank high up there with Bach's Mass in B minor).
Comparing Schubert who died very young to LvB, one may have a better case.
Putting Wozart vs LvB will make an extremely close case. WAM died at 35 (Chopin died at 39). Depending who you talk to some may consider WAM edged out LvB in greatnes, other may think LvB edged out WAM
I don't know whether Chopin was discounted during his life, I know Mozart (as a composer was).
When one compares LvB and Chopin (Chopin was born exactly 200 yrs ago, LvB born even earlier), one notes that both composers work last for a long time. vOn this 200th bday of Chopin several pianists have celebrated by recording his music. LvB just had taken more genre up to a height that is almost unmatched (symphony, concertos, including piano concerto, violin concerto, triple concerto for violin, piano, and cello, piano sonata, piano cto, string quartet, sacred music etc) Chopin OTOH elevated salon piano music to high art. (Where are the symphonies? Concertos, quartets, opera?) Chopin wrote some cello pieces for cello and piano, mostly arrangement of pieces written by other composers, and his cello compositions are not considered as significant.
Anyway in consideration of greatness in music, longevity is not a criteria because music is an art. A sport like figure skating, longevity is a factor, it is difficult to stay at the top for long, because sports is forever moving forward with the new generation jumping higher and running faster. Mk defended her world title, she is the only skater to do that after Kristi. Lets see if kyn can win another world title and successfully defend the title. WC 2010 was her best chance, and she failed
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I have recently become a fan of FS. To be honest, I have never seen any of Yuna's performances until I saw her performances at the Olympics. People around me were all talking about Yuna and how great she was. So I decided to check them out. When I first saw her performances at the Olympics, I wondered what the fuss was all about. I thought any skaters would be able to perform as good as she did. It was only when I started to watch other skaters' performances that I realized how great she was and how her effortless performances had fooled me.
Longevity and personal taste aside, if only overall quality of skating is measured, Yuna is the best skater ever among all female skaters ever existed on earth, at least until someone better than Yuna appears in the future.
Edited to correct typos.
Longevity and personal taste aside, if only overall quality of skating is measured, Yuna is the best skater ever among all female skaters ever existed on earth, at least until someone better than Yuna appears in the future.
Edited to correct typos.
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your last sentence sounds like you haven't put personal taste aside. have you seen her 2010 Worlds performances? she's not perfect. the magic was not quite there as it was in the Olympics. like you, i am captivated by her but i wouldnt go as far to say she's the best ever. at least not yet.
You should compare apple to apple not apple to orange. In other word, you shouldn't compare one's worst game with another's best. Aren't we talking about the best here? Why bring up the worst? If you don't agree, please bring up the best performance of your favorite skater.
Bringing up 2010 Worls in this context was out of line because no one would bring up their favorite skater's worst performance on the table. When you decide who is the fastest man in the world, you compare each person's best record, not the worst. On my previous post, I defined the "best skater" as having the best "overall quality of skating," which is demostrated at competitions. Yuna has already performed the best peformances in Ladies FS history, unless you can bring up someone else's performance which is better than Yuna's best performances.
If you believe that Yuna is not the best skater ever existed, then there must be a someone else's performance that is better than Yuna's best performance. Just out of curiosity, would you mind sharing with me which performance that is? I might be converted.
Just to clarify, I agree that she needs to improve because I don't think she is perfect. But I still believe she is the best ever presently because one can be the best without being perfect. I suspect that we might be able to see better stakers before the next Olympics?
- Joined
- May 11, 2010
The most ignorant comment I have ever read. There are so many things wrong with this statement, I don't even know where to begin.
Setting aside the obviously negative and groundless cultural stereotype, the fact of the matter is, Yuna probably has more "fire" to her personality and is also more "warm and fuzzy" at the same time than any other person I have seen. She is mentally mature beyond her years, and her combination of "shyness" and "fire" results in truly masterful, sublime, and hypnotizing artistry that in my opinion, is greater than anything that focuses on overexuberant display of emotions.
I already know that Yuna is the greatest there ever was. Some people differ and think Michelle will never be matched. Other think that Sasha outshines both. I am fine with all that.
But don't argue blindly that "your concept of artistry" is better than another person's concept of artistry.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
Tara Lipinski
I wudn't say it's better but Tara's 1998 Olympic performance comes to my mind.
You might like it.
I loved the pure joy of the little girl.
I wudn't say it's better but Tara's 1998 Olympic performance comes to my mind.
You might like it.
I loved the pure joy of the little girl.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
Hey old butting buddy
My example raised was to show the sheer absurdity of comparing greatness in art beyond our life time in respect to 'longevity'. ie/ There's no such thing as greatest, or who is best in art. In sport, although longevity is impressive, but it can be as easily refuted when you taking on repeated record breaking as measurable to success. To put forward the example of Michael Jackson, he has sold more records, well loved, and impact more current crop of music 'artists' than any other. Do you find him anywhere on the Most influential and greatest musicians/composer polls? Does it make him greater compared with the likes of Beethoven, Mozart, Bach etc? When in fact it was these musicians who has indirectly impacted him, and therefore to him, they are far more greater? In other words, the question itself is absurd. To Yuna, Michelle is the greatest, and that should be good enough for me. To everyone else, it doesn't really matter.
While one can academically disseminate the components of what make someone or their accomplishment great. Not at all dissimilar how we analyse the components, the records, various bits and pieces. IMHO, they demonstrate far more about the quality of the debater, rather than argument itself. That one should be open minded on the possibly that Michael Jackson can be amongst the greatest even when he just made 'thriller' at the time.
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I also notices the conflict of views from various posters are largely stemmed up from the cultural upbringing, education and social perspective that already shaped their views.
This is a stereo typical view and doesn't apply to all posters, but it would seem
Americans: Only the best and strongest can be considered as the greatest. Only the longest survivor are worthy of surpassing greatness.
Koreans, Japanese, Chinese: If you score the highest, you are the best. Die or nothing. If you disagree with me, you insult to my face.
British and Continental view: Probably more open minded due to the historical on going conflicts, where one country had been more or less been invaded at one time or another, therefore more than once, some country were an underdog. That best is not always the greatest, the strongest doesn't always mean it can defeat weakests. Greatness are considered on each of their own merits and should be celebrated regardless. Only time would be the true judge of a lasting legacy, everything else are just politicians putting forward their latest causes.
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Hey old butting buddy
I will go further to say it is absurb to compare art period. Record breaking success is just success, in the baroque period Telemann sold more music (records) or was commissioned with more $$$$ to write elevator music yeah the tafelmusic than any composers, so Bach lost to him in record sales.
The polls, if indeed there are ones, are designed for the genre of classical music. Now if we switch poll to pop music that is different. It is like comparing Phelps, and Kobe Bryant
Well definitely greatness can be measured by who are the next generations of composers influenced. That is why Buxtehude was considered one of the top 111 composers, b/c he influenced Bach
I definietly agree on Jackson's greatness and thriller But then the little Bond # is not the thriller of skating .
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Of course one's cultural background influences one's view. The rest of your post, I am not touching with a 10 ft pole. BTW, unless all posters reveal their ethnicity, it is difficult to assume their cultural background
Hey you are a kyn fan so it is your job description to aww and ahh... BTW, may I ask how many other skaters performances have you compared? Peggy Flemming's Tchaikovsky program, Janet Lynn's prelude to afternoon? Dorothy's romance from the gadfly? Kristi's Bridge over trouble water? Michelle's EOE, FOG, Rach PC3?
edited to add
I don't quite agree with using success and record sales (or # of votes) as measurement of greatness in either art or sports . We all know Yao Ming got the most # of votes on www prior to all star game. Is he a greater center than Shaq? We know Salieri in his life time sold more music / records than Mozart. Michael jackson is the king of pop, and thriller is #1, but Jackson is great even if he never produced thriller.
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