The Kween and the Queen

[miki88]

rtuerck, you're right. Figure skating has artistic aspects but it is still a sport. It's a competition and it's judged by its components. There's a certain standard you have to live up to. That's really not so in other forms of art. To an artist, it's all about personal expression and creativity. They don't need to yield to popular opinion or any judging panel. That's not the case with figure skating. As we've seen, if you're not in the judges' favor, then you won't be given due credit for your work.

 

[Olympia]

Michelle's style of skating is very transparent and able to deliver how she feel to the audience unlike no other. Chen Lu came very close with her Butterfly lovers, because it is emotionally honest and the cultural context clearly spoke to her, and she was able to do deliver it only she can.

This transparency is something Yuna doesn't appear to do. Therefore may be leads to the feeling that she is indifferent or even cold. The closest she was able to deliver how she truly feels as oppose to how a character would feel is probably Gershwin, I think there were a photo close up of her performance that showed her tearing up during her step up sequences. Some posters remarked it due to the more reserved culture, and that may be true, especially when compares to the Americans who are encouraged to discuss and express your feelings rather than bottled them up. Of course, thing doesn't help when she was shy, so externalising and hide behind a character is the much more preferred style of artistic expression.

Or may be it is just a style difference. How shall I put this. I suppose it is a little bit like comparing Meryl Streep of acting vs. Joan Allen (another one of my favourite actresses). One is externally aware, emotionally, transparent and easy to read; the one is more internal steely but has an quietness with great undercurrent of passion and fire. So when she is on, it is all about the eyes, and she delivers them on impacts. They are both powerful in different ways.

What a lovely way to describe Michelle's skating--transparent. I think you're right on target. I agree that YuNa, while equally impressive, is more interior. I like the actresses you choose as the examples of each style.

As for which skater is "better," I wouldn't want to do without either one. I love Michelle but obviously YuNa has the edge on jumps and is very exciting to watch because of that. Michelle has (to my eye) more flow. Also, Michelle has some magical quality that makes the whole more than the sum of its parts in her skating--her skating haunts me, remaining in my mind.

But I've noticed that many of you on this forum react to YuNa the way I react to Michelle. So clearly YuNa has that quality of haunting a viewer with her performances as well. We can, therefore, have a great deal of fun arguing this point, but there's no way for one side to win. And that's a good thing! It means that skating is a large enough art to have more than one great skater.

 

[janetfan]

What a lovely way to describe Michelle's skating--transparent. I think you're right on target. I agree that YuNa, while equally impressive, is more interior. I like the actresses you choose as the examples of each style.

As for which skater is "better," I wouldn't want to do without either one. I love Michelle but obviously YuNa has the edge on jumps and is very exciting to watch because of that. Michelle has (to my eye) more flow. Also, Michelle has some magical quality that makes the whole more than the sum of its parts in her skating--her skating haunts me, remaining in my mind.

But I've noticed that many of you on this forum react to YuNa the way I react to Michelle. So clearly YuNa has that quality of haunting a viewer with her performances as well. We can, therefore, have a great deal of fun arguing this point, but there's no way for one side to win. And that's a good thing! It means that skating is a large enough art to have more than one great skater.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

"Transparent", "interior" and other descriptions are very fitting.

I think part of Michelle's appeal is because the emotional qualities of her skating were so real.
It felt totally different than what I think of as the "manufactured" dramatic style we see from so many skaters.

Isn't it curious that so many fans love Mao's exhibition skates - where we appear to see her real personality and feelings shine through?

I think Lambiel is another skater who creates a mood and casts a spell over an audience. Lambiel does not depend on excessivley theatrical gimmicks but combines elegant movement and expression to the music he is skating to. Like Michelle there is a beauty and at times a nobilty to his skating that evokes feelings that most of the others can't match.

Different fans prefer different styles. Some like a less subtle, "in your face" theatrical style more like Plushy shows. I am sure he captivates his fans every bit as much as Lambiel does.

It all comes down to what we like. Yuna fans love Yuna just as Mao fans love Mao. Same for Plushy and Lambiel.

Personally I think Michelle was the most special of them all but understand others feel differently. I agree with Olympia that skating is big enough for more than one style and one favorite and it is interesting to read so many differing opinions about this.

 

[OS]

Heya rtuerck, please I love to hear different perspective even though it often (ok nearly always) doesn't exactly agree with mine.

I agree it is totally absurd to compare art period, that is why context is important. Skating has a short history of less than 100 years old, and 'period's and 'trends' are decidedly set by the champion of the period and rules applied at the time. Kwan is the best of her era, Yuna (or Mao) is the best of their era, that is why my entire argument was about the absurdity to comparing the Kwan and Yuna based on 'longevity' using the music masters as comparison (who do belong around the same time). I was also able to critically examined the place of 'longevity' in the place of art and sports supremacy actually doesn't mean much at all. At least that is my opinion, you are of course welcome disagree with that. Put it this way, just because Britain ruled the western civilisation for a better of couple of hundred years (and to an extent many of the East), does it make it greater than what the Americans did during the last 100s pushing the civilisation forward, or the Chinese is capable of doing in the next 20?

The MJ example was raised to again to show open mindedness can prevent us seeing a 'possibility' of greatness despite short 'longevity' at the time. During time of Thriller, he was just starting... and he eventually became King of Pop. Not unlike the heights of Yuna's achievements with how she brought us 3 of her bests during her short careers so far in terms of purely Skating terms. (Psst. noticed i didn't list Bond in the top three, so the fact you brought Bond as an example is hardly my point)

 

[rtureck]

No problem, I will take the 3 you listed, and IMO those are not the thriller of skating. We have a difference of opinion then.
Even comparing skaters' greatness throughout different generations may not be exactly useful. But we know thta in the generation of figures Heiss had 5 world gold. In 6/0s era, Kwan had 5. So MK matched that. We do know that all skaters compete with the greatest of their generation. So in Kristi's generation, she competed against the greatest of her generation, and she was able to defend her world title. Mk competed against the greatest of her generation, Irina, and was able to defend her world title. At this point of her carreer, kyn failed to defend her world title competing against one of the greatest in her generation. On the one hand I am totally open minded and yeah (borrow your words) and have great expectation that kyn will win a world title and defend it in the future. OTOH, I speculate that kyn will retire and not return

 

[OS]

We can, therefore, have a great deal of fun arguing this point, but there's no way for one side to win. And that's a good thing! It means that skating is a large enough art to have more than one great skater.

Yes ITA, for me Skating is both art and sports. I have stronger affinity to art, and having the privilege of witnessing art in various formats, I have come to the conclusions, there's no such thing as 'greatest ever'.

May be I am just too greedy, but like pieces of music, paintings, and anything in arts, I find it impossible to just to fully commit to 1 favourite in my life time, it would be too boring. My favourites changes through out life time, mood etc. In a few month, I may have a different favourite performance from another skater, but I'd be really amazed if that would be true. They would have to be pretty spectacular to top the soft spot I have for Michelle and Yuna.

 

[PROKOFIEV]

I never meant to compare skating with music itself in my previous post. I wanted to talk about the longevity in the competition field. As I said, I stopped participating any kind of competition after while, including judged recitals. It was extremely difficult and stressfull time even though I enjoyed some part of it. I am very happy right now just performing and enjoy teaching very much. i really admire and respect Michelle for keep on competing against world's top skaters and stayed on top for a long time like that. It is really really hard thing to do. I am sure there were times Michelle did not even want to go to practice or compete. But she never showed us that and never ever made excuses for not performing well. She gave her best everytime she performed living up to everyone's expectations.. Whether it is in piano, violin, skating, basketball, chess, etc, it is not easy to keep on competing for a long time especially at the high level when everyone expect you to do well nomatter what.

 

[Mathman]

The MJ example was raised to again to show open mindedness can prevent us seeing a 'possibility' of greatness despite short 'longevity' at the time. During time of Thriller, he was just starting... and he eventually became King of Pop....

Just a tiny correction here. Michael Jackson hit the top of the record charts in 1970. As the 11-year-old lead of the Jackson Five he had four consecutive number ones with I'll be there, ABC, I want you back, and The love you save.

IMHO, this was his best work. The clarity of his choir-boy voice was just astonishing.

Thriller (1983) was the climax and piece de resistance of the Jackson phenomenon. He released a few things afterword, but Thriller was pretty much the Beethoven's Ninth of his career.

Psst. noticed i didn't list Bond in the top three, so the fact you brought Bond as an example is hardly my point.

But Bond has to rank on the all-time cute/sexy list. Can't it at least be the Eine Kleine Nachtmusik of short programs?

 

[janetfan]

But Bond has to rank on the all-time cute/sexy list. Can't it at least be the Eine Kleine Nachtmusik of short programs?

And maybe as a nod to Katerina - who was known to be Orser's favorite lady skater during his competitive years.

 

[Olympia]

I never meant to compare skating with music itself in my previous post. I wanted to talk about the longevity in the competition field. As I said, I stopped participating any kind of competition after while, including judged recitals. It was extremely difficult and stressfull time even though I enjoyed some part of it. I am very happy right now just performing and enjoy teaching very much. i really admire and respect Michelle for keep on competing against world's top skaters and stayed on top for a long time like that. It is really really hard thing to do. I am sure there were times Michelle did not even want to go to practice or compete. But she never showed us that and never ever made excuses for not performing well. She gave her best everytime she performed living up to everyone's expectations.. Whether it is in piano, violin, skating, basketball, chess, etc, it is not easy to keep on competing for a long time especially at the high level when everyone expect you to do well nomatter what.

Prokofiev, don't apologize for your comparison! I think you made some excellent points, and it was especially interesting for me to hear what it's like to be a performer and competitor. We spectators think of classical music as just a performance art, but as you made clear, there are a lot of competitions out there, in all instruments but especially in piano, and careers are often made by winning prominent competitions--witness Van Cliburn and Olga Kern. This gives you a special insight into Michelle's achievements. One of her most admirable traits was the toughness of spirit needed to maintain her place on the podium for almost a decade. There aren't many in history who were able to do that. And it's not as if her competitors were slouches, either. In Nationals, both Naomi Nari Nam and Sasha Cohen came very close to taking the gold from her at one point or another, and in international competitions, she had to vie with Slutskaya, probably the greatest Russian ladies' single skater ever. Yet she kept her place at or near the top. Thanks for demonstrating what that kind of tension feels like!

OS, I thought of another actress to add to your comparison of the two skaters. I'm watching a DVD featuring Judy Garland. Talk about transparent! In comedy, drama, or musicals, she pulled in viewers, and she did it with a voice that can definitely be considered one of the great instruments of the twentieth century. As a friend of mine once remarked, you can't teach what she had. Don't extend the parallel to the two ladies' personal lives: Garland was as chaotic offscreen as she was disciplined onscreen, while by all accounts Kwan is equally in control in everyday life and in performance. But that quality of extra magic that can't be quantified belongs to them both.

 

[PROKOFIEV]

Olympia, Thank you very much for your kind comment and understanding what I am trying to say. I have always so much in mind to talk about but it is really hard for me because English is not my first language. Everyday in my life living in America, I really appreciate all these kind and patient American people who put up with my not so good communication skills. I never thought about bringing Judy Garland in this comparison. I think you have a great point. There are somethings special that you can not teach the person and both of them have that something.

 

[OS]

it is not easy to keep on competing for a long time especially at the high level when everyone expect you to do well nomatter what.

Prokofiev You have raised a very good point from an insider's perspective.

I think that is why Michelle is considered as a skater's skater, while Tara is not. I seem to recall reading that there had been ex ladies champions really wanted Michelle Kwan to win the Olympics, and expressed their annoyance to Tara's 'flash in the pants' showy antics in Olympics 02, as someone who hasn't paid her dues that has grabbed all the glory. While this sounds totally unfair to Tara, but then I can still totally understand where they are came from. With a long career for the better of a decade with the many ups and downs as Michelle had, one can't even begin to fathom the amount of blood sweat and tears Michelle shed for her sport. With skating being such an individual sport (not unlike your recital competitions), much of it is about dealing mental pressure at every competition, which you can only do so alone.

In terms of personal journey Michelle exceed everyone in terms of how much time (of modern era, post dvd era) she stayed at the top, but for how her legacy is going to be judged beyond our life time, I think it is still too early to tell, as well as discounting anyone out.

Personally I'd like Yuna to be inspired by her idol, and find motivation on her own terms and decide to continue. I am personally encouraged by her words that she still wishes to experience as many characters as possible and want to improve the 'artistic' side of her skating. It would be a terrible loss if she decide to retire. She is in the best physical conditions than ever, she has the world on her feet, her rival is continuing onto 2014. If she does retire because she doesn't think she can do it any more, that'd be such an anti climax to everything she strived for. As a fan of figure skating, I would be very disappointed too at the loss f such a irreplaceable talent in the Ladies. It is Yuna's own prerogative though, so as a fan we can only respect her decision, what ever it ends up being.

 

[rtureck]

Prokofiev You have raised a very good point from an insider's perspective.

I think that is why Michelle is considered as a skater's skater, while Tara is not. I seem to recall reading that there had been ex ladies champions really wanted Michelle Kwan to win the Olympics, and expressed their annoyance to Tara's 'flash in the pants' showy antics in Olympics 02,

I don't know that Tara is a "flash in the pants in 02" LOl sorry, can't resist


About an earlier point of being greedy, when it comes to music I am very greedy. I am even willing to follow the career of Yundi and Lang Lang for almost 10 yrs and bought almost all their cds just hoping that one or both will have that break through to be true artists. So far Lang Lang has been a huge disappointment, and I am still buying his cds. Yundi is beginning to be a slight disappointment, b/c I hear in his latest cd more refine technique and less musicality. Somehow following the upcoming violinists in the past 10 yrs had been less frustrating. Hahn, Julie fishcer, et al have not been diappointing. Sure in music I don't have one favorite performer. I prefer Richter for Brahms PC2, Curzon for Brahms PC1, and I understand perfectly why some of my freinds prefer Gilels for both PCs., or some friends prefer Kovacevich for PC1, and Rubinstein for PC2 (and I have collected all of the above) I prefer Moravec and Vasary for Chopin nocturnes, and Iunderstand why my friends prefer Rubinstein, Pollini, Pires. (and greedily I collected all of the above including Yundi). Having said tht we all have a desert island list. When I go to desert island, I will take Curzon and Richter for Brahms PCs and leave Gilels, Kovacevich and Rubinstein in the mainland.

mathman Bond indeed is a sexy program, I am talking about Mk's program. Sorry, until kyn puts on a one piece cat suit and approaches MK's sexiness in Bond, IMO MK's Bond left kyn's Bond in the dust. Soirry kyn's bond can not be the EKNM of sp. (When you talk EKNM, you are talking about the greatest composer in history IMo, you are talking about Wofie, and the excellent genre of elevator music that was perfect by him). Maybe kyn's Bond can be be the Hadyn's "Fart" symphony #93 (sorry I haven't memorized Haydn's opus numbers) of sp

 

[Mathman]

Um...OK...Everyone is going to hate me for this, but before all the English majors jump in...

It's "flash in the pan." From panning for gold. You think you see a nugget of gold in your pan, but it's just a momentary glint of sunlight.

Speaking of Tara and Michelle, caption this:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d25/kharkins21/feb20_d9.jpg

Michelle (whispers): "I am going tp snatch you off that podium and bury your face in the ice."

I am talking about Mk's program.

Here is MK's Bpnd girl:

http://heatherw.com/mk/pics/world/mkbing4.jpg

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The Name of the Best Skater in the World is that one skater who is in your heart.

And if that skater is not from your country then it is more meaningful.

 

[OS]

Um...OK...Everyone is going to hate me for this, but before all the English majors jump in...

It's "flash in the pan." From panning for gold. You think you see a nugget of gold in your pan, but it's just a momentary glint of sunlight.

Hehe.. Consider my Chinglish internet idiom moment, but when when Tara won, it truly felt more like a "flash in a pants" moment. Gosh I just realised I got my dates all wrong, how embarrassing. Okay it was in '98 but i do remember her as annoying daddy's girl in class that had a "lucky break" once in a while, and it happened on the biggest day of in 4 years, and suddenly she is acting 'she's all that' and 'it is all about me' show off over the more talented but unlucky scholarship girl? Maybe it stemmed from 'jealousy with envy' girl judge girl moment, so a little bit of "bitchiness" is inevitable

Sorry Tara, but I am still mad at you, even it is true you did perform good on the night.

 

[Olympia]

Joe, I agree with your first paragraph completely!

I can't live up to your second paragraph...Michelle is the skater "in my heart." She happens to be from my country, but there's nothing I can do about that.

However, I very much love Mao and YuNa, and they're from elsewhere. And the male skater in my heart is Kurt. With Daisuke coming into home stretch at the speed of light!

 

[OS]

The Name of the Best Skater in the World is that one skater who is in your heart.

And if that skater is not from your country then it is more meaningful.

How about

Art has no boarders, and nationality is meaningless because perfection and excellence is universal?

 

[Lilith11]

How about

Art has no boarders, and nationality is meaningless because perfection and excellence is universal?

But the words "perfection" and "excellence" themselves are subjective, though normally, a majority will set a tone for what defines "perfection." But there will always be people who disagree with that general description :3

 

[brianjyw]

Hey you are a kyn fan so it is your job description to aww and ahh... BTW, may I ask how many other skaters performances have you compared? Peggy Flemming's Tchaikovsky program, Janet Lynn's prelude to afternoon? Dorothy's romance from the gadfly? Kristi's Bridge over trouble water? Michelle's EOE, FOG, Rach PC3?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw9XZAA72lw&feature=related
If this is Peggy Flemming's Tchaikovsky program you are referring to, I admit I am very impressed with her performance considering it was done more than 40 years ago. Ironically, I could see her in Yuna's performances in terms of elegance and lightness of jump and exquisite flow and I am all the more impressed with what Yuna has accomplished despite all the technical difficulties and loads of requirements she has to put up with under the current CoP judging system. I can only imagine how artistically good Yuna would have been if Yuna had to do only singles and doubles and there are no levels on spirals and spins and steps.

I found it very much amusing when I heard the commentators mentioning how elegant Peggy's performance was. Many commentators said basically the same thing for Yuna's performances even though it was much harder for Yuna to pull off artistic side of her programs with aforementioned requirements and difficulties.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0wb...E5920BAA&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=14
As for Dorothy, this was the only clip I was able to find on Youtube. IMO, Dorothy's program was much faster and technically superior than Peggy's program even though Peggy's performance appeared to be much more beautiful artistically, at least to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dozwFZ5NoNs
I think Kristi's jumps are good enough to stand up against today's skaters. But unfortunately not as good as Yuna's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHfgjszz_Tk
Wow! What a connection between the audience and her! It was mesmerizing but even though a connection with audience is a part of FS, FS is not all about it.

After having seen all of these clips, I still believe that Yuna's performances are the best ever in Ladies FS history in terms of purely skating quality and difficulties.

In any sports, a great athlete comes along and push the sport to a higher level. In Ladies FS, we are lucky enough to have a list of great skaters who rose to the occasion and pushed the sport to a higher level. I believe Peggy, Dorothy, Kristi, Michelle and Yuna all belong to one of these great skaters who rewrote the FS history.

When one pushes the Sport to a higher level, the skater must be better than the previous best skaters. As Yuna has been coronated as FS Queen replacing Michelle, Yuna will be also eclipsed by someone better than her in the future. I believe it must happen for the sake of the sport. Otherwise, Ladies FS is doomed.