The race for the Ladies JGPF

[YuBluByMe]

I'm not a fan of the term "quota buffoonery".

What is "fair" about excluding medalists from the Final, because of a preconceived notion about who should be in the Final? To me using scores and scores only, while excluding medalists, would be "quota buffoonery". The medalists had no control over who was in their field, why should they be excluded any more than "high scorers". Comparing scores across competitions is "fair"? Not so much for me

I have always said I prefer an expanded final, with both medalists and high scorers included. Then may the best skaters win

Is there something that I’m missing here? Because it’s like you’re responding to something else and not my post.

In my previous post, I’m talking about limiting spots for each country - which is, yes, quota buffoonery - and will exclude medalists, but only Russian medalists, which was precisely my point. Unless, of course, there’s another country that has multiple medalists in any discipline and will also be negatively affected by such a rule?

 

[el henry]

Is there something that I’m missing here? Because it’s like you’re responding to something else and not my post.

In my previous post, I’m talking about limiting spots for each country - which is, yes, quota buffoonery - and will exclude medalists, but only Russian medalists, which was precisely my point. Unless, of course, there’s another country that has multiple medalists in any discipline and will also be negatively affected by such a rule?

It sounds as though you are agreeing with me, then, and all is good

I agree that reserving spots for Russian skaters or limiting spots for Russian skaters, or any skater on country basis, for the JGPF, would be not be in keeping with the purpose of the JGPF.

I apologize if I misunderstood the post. I am also (and I know you did not start the convo with this phrase), sensitive to use of the word "quota", as I spent much of my professional life having to properly define the word against folks who would misuse it

 

[florin]

Can I ask "announced" by whom? And when?

I have seen statements attributed to a Russian official (sadly I do not read Russian, so I cannot tell myself) that it would be scores, but no announcement from the ISU.

You are right, I wrote it incorrectly. This is just a proposal of our federation:

According to the information tele-sport.ru, four Russian figure skaters in single disciplines will go to the remaining stages. Due to the fact that the remaining stages will be overloaded by the number of participants, it was proposed to change the selection scheme. The initiative to change the regulations came from the Russian Figure Skating Federation (FFKKR).

However, since this proposal is logical, I believe that this will be the starting point for the ISU to solve the problem.

What is "fair" about excluding medalists from the Final, because of a preconceived notion about who should be in the Final?

Аccording to the original logic, the Grand Prix stages are arranged for the selection of the strongest skaters in the final. If external circumstances of force majeure do not allow us to determine the strongest using the usual selection criteria (medals), then the criteria should be temporarily modified. This is "fair", and not blindly following formalism.

Remember the usual system. First, the sum of the places is estimated (first place is 15 points, second place is 13, etc.). If the skaters' points are equal, then the one with the higher place is chosen (1 and 3 are better than 2 and 2). But if the skaters are equal in this parameter, too, then in this case, the one with the highest total score was chosen. Therefore, the proposal of our federation is natural - since we cannot use the first two points of instruction (due to the fact that one of the teams did not have access to all the stages), we should immediately move to the third point - the total score.

 

[bigsisjiejie]

While it's fun to speculate, I think you may be getting ahead of yourselves. The JGPF may not even happen. The Japanese Skating Federation has just cancelled the Four Continents SPEED Skating Championships due to Covid/quarantine restrictions, and that was scheduled for late January in Japan. Not sure how eager they will be to host the JGPF/GPF in early December, which is only 10 weeks away. I suppose if Japan cancels out, it could be moved....maybe to somewhere like....Russia.

 

[el henry]

You are right, I wrote it incorrectly. This is just a proposal of our federation:

According to the information tele-sport.ru, four Russian figure skaters in single disciplines will go to the remaining stages. Due to the fact that the remaining stages will be overloaded by the number of participants, it was proposed to change the selection scheme. The initiative to change the regulations came from the Russian Figure Skating Federation (FFKKR).

However, since this proposal is logical, I believe that this will be the starting point for the ISU to solve the problem.



Аccording to the original logic, the Grand Prix stages are arranged for the selection of the strongest skaters in the final. If external circumstances of force majeure do not allow us to determine the strongest using the usual selection criteria (medals), then the criteria should be temporarily modified. This is "fair", and not blindly following formalism.

Remember the usual system. First, the sum of the places is estimated (first place is 15 points, second place is 13, etc.). If the skaters' points are equal, then the one with the higher place is chosen (1 and 3 are better than 2 and 2). But if the skaters are equal in this parameter, too, then in this case, the one with the highest total score was chosen. Therefore, the proposal of our federation is natural - since we cannot use the first two points of instruction (due to the fact that one of the teams did not have access to all the stages), we should immediately move to the third point - the total score.

I thank you for your explanations (and your detailed original post). I do understand the rationale behind "high scorers" and I do feel bad for skaters who could not compete in the first two Grand Prix.

Where you and I would differ is that the Force Majeure applied equally to medallists in the first two Grand Prix. It is not their fault that the field did not have skaters from all countries. I believe that it is not fair to them to apply a method relying on scoring, when scoring varies so much from comp to comp. And I say that from a point of view that it matters little to me who is in the women's JGPF, so it is not based on desire to see certain skaters, at least in that discipline . I would like a "blended expanded" field.

But I do wonder what the ISU's final decision would be

 

[Skatesocs]

While it's fun to speculate, I think you may be getting ahead of yourselves. The JGPF may not even happen. The Japanese Skating Federation has just cancelled the Four Continents SPEED Skating Championships due to Covid/quarantine restrictions, and that was scheduled for late January in Japan. Not sure how eager they will be to host the JGPF/GPF in early December, which is only 10 weeks away. I suppose if Japan cancels out, it could be moved....maybe to somewhere like....Russia.

I'd hope they'd have informed the ISU by now if they didn't intend to host the GPF (Japan has been rather quick with these announcements, like with the 4CCs, and Japanese juniors not attending JGP this season).

Them not doing so yet makes me think they're set to host it. I expect there will also be some speculation of whether NHK will happen or not based off this, and I don't think they'd have waited for so long after CoC was cancelled either.

 

[Skatesocs]

Where you and I would differ is that the Force Majeure applied equally to medallists in the first two Grand Prix. It is not their fault that the field did not have skaters from all countries. I believe that it is not fair to them to apply a method relying on scoring, when scoring varies so much from comp to comp. And I say that from a point of view that it matters little to me who is in the women's JGPF, so it is not based on desire to see certain skaters, at least in that discipline . I would like a "blended expanded" field.

I'd agree. But personally, I still think it's OK to cancel JGPF. They got the experience, prepare for junior nationals, and then junior worlds. You play the cards you were dealt with, and unfortunately, the world was dealt with a brutal card indeed.

And I expect we'll all have this conversation again in the senior GPs - doesn't look like France is going to budge when it comes to Russia on vaccines. It becomes more "interesting" ( ) at that point. And while I feel somewhat differently after seeing the Chinese Pair at Nebelhorn, there's still a chance China might not send athletes to anywhere outside China (admittedly not keeping up with other winter sports currently, let me know if I'm wrong about it).

 

[florin]

Where you and I would differ is that the Force Majeure applied equally to medallists in the first two Grand Prix. It is not their fault that the field did not have skaters from all countries.

The skaters who were at the first stage were also in Force Majeure circumstances. From a sence, not a formalistic point of view - Im Kampfe sollst du dein Recht finden ("You shall find your right in battle"). Your phrase "the field did not have skaters from all countries" is mischievous, and you know that There were no representatives of the strongest team. In the fight with the representatives of which it was necessary to "find their right" to the final.

I believe that it is not fair to them to apply a method relying on scoring, when scoring varies so much from comp to comp.

This is true (although the scores does not differ very dramatically in different competitions), and that is why, under normal circumstances, this is only the third point. Therefore, the task of the ISU is not easy. I myself see a solution either in the quota for the number of Russians, or an expansion of the number of finalists (what you offer and what I consider unlikely) or some modification of the principle of selection according to the total score (some bonuses for places)

 

[Jontor]

I'd agree. But personally, I still think it's OK to cancel JGPF. They got the experience, prepare for junior nationals, and then junior worlds. You play the cards you were dealt with, and unfortunately, the world was dealt with a brutal card indeed.

And I expect we'll all have this conversation again in the senior GPs - doesn't look like France is going to budge when it comes to Russia on vaccines. It becomes more "interesting" ( ) at that point. And while I feel somewhat differently after seeing the Chinese Pair at Nebelhorn, there's still a chance China might not send athletes to anywhere outside China (admittedly not keeping up with other winter sports currently, let me know if I'm wrong about it).

I disagree. If there is no JGP final I will be very disappointed. Yes, they got the experience, but next to Worlds, JGPF is the next best thing.

I will be very surprised at this point if the senioŕ GPs will have the same problem. Surely everyone has learned their lesson after the Courchevel debacle, and are making sure it won't happen again.

 

[Skatesocs]

I will be very surprised at this point if the senioŕ GPs will have the same problem. Surely everyone has learned their lesson after the Courchevel debacle, and are making sure it won't happen again.

How will they make sure of that? Russia is still on the red list of France's restrictions - nothing to do with skating, no lesson to be learned. They have to think of something right now.

I disagree. If there is no JGP final I will be very disappointed. Yes, they got the experience, but next to Worlds, JGPF is the next best thing.

My opinion isn't based on personal enjoyment or disappointment. It's to do with the purpose of the JGPF. If it's for experience, it's okay to restructure the WS points this season and cancel the JGPF. They can have it again when there are fewer restrictions around. The entire point of the junior circuit is experience.

Senior GPs isn't just experience, the stakes are different. This season, the WS points will be used to determine the groups at OWG, just as an example.

 

[Jontor]

How will they make sure of that? Russia is still on the red list of France's restrictions - nothing to do with skating, no lesson to be learned. They have to think of something right now.


My opinion isn't based on personal enjoyment or disappointment. It's to do with the purpose of the JGPF. If it's for experience, it's okay to restructure the WS points this season and cancel the JGPF. They can have it again when there are fewer restrictions around. The entire point of the junior circuit is experience.

Senior GPs isn't just experience, the stakes are different. This season, the WS points will be used to determine the groups at OWG, just as an example.

Again I disagree. JGP and JGPF are very important to get into the senior level and the WS list. JGPs count for a lot of WS points, and as last years JGP was cancelled, the likes of Valieva et al have a disadvantage now on the WS list. Ok, Valieva will probably survive anyway, but the lower ranking juniors going into seniors are having a hard time this year.

Yes, France might have the same restrictions now. But surely, all skating federations with entries there have had the time now to communicate with France and be assured if they can compete or not? I am sure at least for Russia, that if they are uncertain if they can compete in France, we would have heard something about it and Russia would have demanded the GP to be moved?

 

[florin]

I don't see any problems at all if the Japanese refuse to hold the final. What is the problem with holding the final in another country? And, indeed, it would be nice to hold the final in Russia. If you look with honest eyes, then you might have noticed, for example, the last russian junior stages (even junior!) there were many, many better than others stages - I'm talking about the opening ceremony, high-quality ice rinks, the number of viewers. When senior GP stage is held in Moscow , it is always a fully filled big modern Megasport-rink.

In general, as they say in Russia, "they are trying to scare the cat with a sausage"

The main thing is that the Japanese behave with dignity and inform the world community in advance about their unwillingness to hold the final and do not cancel everything at the last moment, as the Canadians did then with WC. (However, the Canadians are excused by the fact that this was the beginning of a pandemic and no one understood anything yet and everyone was disoriented)

 

[Jontor]

I don't see any problems at all if the Japanese refuse to hold the final. What is the problem with holding the final in another country? And, indeed, it would be nice to hold the final in Russia. If you look with honest eyes, then you might have noticed, for example, the last russian junior stages (even junior!) there were many, many better than others stages - I'm talking about the opening ceremony, high-quality ice rinks, the number of viewers. When senior GP stage is held in Moscow , it is always a fully filled big modern Megasport-rink.

In general, as they say in Russia, "they are trying to scare the cat with a sausage"

The main thing is that the Japanese behave with dignity and inform the world community in advance about their unwillingness to hold the final and do not cancel everything at the last moment, as the Canadians did then with WC. (However, the Canadians are excused by the fact that this was the beginning of a pandemic and no one understood anything yet and everyone was disoriented)

Yes, totally agree. If the Japanese were to cancel the GP finals, they would have done it by now.

 

[chuckm]

Yes, what is going to happen with GP France? The French federation back in June selected a large number of Russians: 3 Men, 3 Women, 2 Pairs and 3 Dance teams.

Is Russia going to demand that the other GPs absorb these skaters, saddling other host nations with additional expense?

Be aware that whatever final solution the ISU comes up with for the JGPF will probably be in place for the GP, too.

So we may be looking at a nearly all-Russian combined JGPF/GPF. If Japan cancels the event, it might just as well go to Russia and call it "Russian Pre-Nationals".

 

[Jontor]

Yes, what is going to happen with GP France? The French federation back in June selected a large number of Russians: 3 Men, 3 Women, 2 Pairs and 3 Dance teams.

Is Russia going to demand that the other GPs absorb these skaters, saddling other host nations with additional expense?

Be aware that whatever final solution the ISU comes up with for the JGPF will probably be in place for the GP, too.

So we may be looking at a nearly all-Russian combined JGPF/GPF. If Japan cancels the event, it might just as well go to Russia and call it "Russian Pre-Nationals".

And your point is...don't watch any GP Finals at all because there is only Russians in it?

I am just trying to understand here. Is your frustration about your own country and the fact it is not up there, or is it a frustration about Russia who seems to be up there all the time?

 

[Azikin]

Yes, totally agree. If the Japanese were to cancel the GP finals, they would have done it by now.

Or they could have moved it, like China GP.. still it's kind of weird that JGPF is supposed to be in Japan, despite no japanese skaters participated in JGP...

 

[bigsisjiejie]

Or they could have moved it, like China GP.. still it's kind of weird that JGPF is supposed to be in Japan, despite no japanese skaters participated in JGP...

The JGPF goes wherever the GPF is, it's now a package deal. It was the Japanese Federation's choice not to send the Japanese skaters to the JGP, regardless of reason. But yes, it will be weird (and sad) to have the host country without participants. I do think that the GP Final will go on as usual--as someone said above, the stakes are different. The JGPF is primarily for experience and bragging rights, vs cash/WS points.

It's very possible that the JGPF could be cancelled but the GPF will continue as planned, in Japan. That would remove one headache for the ISU, in trying to figure out an equitable way to select the JGPF finalists. If Japan is going to require athletes to be vaccinated (and will accept vaccines from Russia, China, etc that aren't currently used in Japan), then that could be tougher for some of the likely JGPF finalists who may be under the current age limits for vaccination in their countries. Japan could--and likely will--do some sort of bubble concept and perhaps exempt athletes from vaccination requirements.

We'll probably know in a couple of weeks what the plan is....with everything being contingent on the virus not throwing an unexpectedly negative curve ball at us between now and December, particularly in Japan.

 

[Skatesocs]

It's very possible that the JGPF could be cancelled but the GPF will continue as planned, in Japan. That would remove one headache for the ISU, in trying to figure out an equitable way to select the JGPF finalists. If Japan is going to require athletes to be vaccinated (and will accept vaccines from Russia, China, etc that aren't currently used in Japan), then that could be tougher for some of the likely JGPF finalists who may be under the current age limits for vaccination in their countries. Japan could--and likely will--do some sort of bubble concept and perhaps exempt athletes from vaccination requirements.

Yeah, I actually don't know what Japan's policy even is about unvaccinated minors. Personally, I don't want to see exemptions given to juniors who aren't vaccinated just because they are athletes. The bubble is faulty and the junior gets a virus - that's a horrible thing.

We'll probably know in a couple of weeks what the plan is

I think October 1st is when all will be made clear.

 

[icetug]

Assuming that the originally announced selection criteria for the final (the sum of the scores) will be used

But the criteria were changed by the ISU Communication 2418 (August the 5th):

Mindful of the above-mentioned situation and challenges, the Council finally concluded that it is impossible to implement a fair and consistent ISU Junior Grand Prix ranking for the 2021/22 season. The Council therefore agreed to focus on the safe organization of the individual ISU Junior Grand Prix events with the best possible participation. However, no ISU Junior Grand Prix ranking will be applied. Depending on the developments during the ISU Junior Grand Prix series, the ISU Council will evaluate if and how the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final (scheduled to be held on December 9-12, 2021 in Japan), could be held by applying alternative qualification criteria. Such decision will be taken as soon as possible in consultation with all stakeholders also taking into account the sanitary situation in Japan and around the world, which is particularly sensitive for junior-aged Skaters.

Whatever RusFed proponed should be discussed with other federations. However the JGPF is still under the question mark ("if the JGPF could be held") and presumably it's Japanese decision if they want to held it.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

I suppose if Japan cancels out, it could be moved....maybe to somewhere like....Russia.

This would make so much sense, actually. I'm all in favour of this proposal!