The Underrotated Jumps of Evgenia Medvedeva

[Skater Boy]

I know it is just me but sometimes I feel these issues skaters jumps, spins or whatever seem more personal than actual. I agree her jumps are not as powerful or big as say Osmond or Gold I am not sure generally there is a huge problems with rotations. Really it seems like people are picking on a young skater. We get it folks many of you feel she isnot Mao, not as mature, not as musical, not as pwoerful on jumps, does tanos left and right for COP points with no objective or rationale for the program, she seemst o have reused coreo from past, we dontlike her usic, we wonder if she picked 9/11 to get emotional support and draw on heart strings, she isn't fast enough, she doesn't have as deep or clean edges as Kostner, she is not as lyrical or musical or interpretive as Mao. Why the poor girl should just give up skating. We all have our favorites and to be honest a lot of it isn't rational. This is why we have one of the largest nations in the world having a vote off between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. where politicians are all corrupt, all havea scandalous past and where woman who stood by her man and involved email security issues versus a man who has consistently made derogatory remarks against people non discriminatory - he has said negative things about races, genders etc, who has gone broke more times than Mirai Nagasu underrotates her jumps in a program are the leading candidates to be President of the US. We are suppose to be rational beings but sadly we aren't. I just don't know if Medeveda's rotations are that much of an issue warranting a thread. i truly wonder what the outside world thinks and it is just us keeners who really are that picky and ick apart skaters under a microscope?

 

[jimini]

Her rotation and snap on the jump is so quick that most people won't notice a cheat. It just looks like a blur and a clean landing. But she does cheat her jumps and they need to be called out, by the technical panels.

The technical panel cannot review pre-rotation in the super duper slow mo GIFs that you shared. They can only review pre-rotation in regular time. If you slow down toe loops enough, you're going to see pre-rotation from almost everybody to varying degrees. It seems futile to spend all this time slowing down toe loops when the technical panel is not allowed to do it per the rulebook.

I'm not Medvedeva's biggest fan by any means, but watching her toe loops in real time, I can't see pre-rotation no matter how many times I watch it over and over. You could say the same about many other skaters who appear to have no pre-rotation in real time, but then in super slow mo you suddenly see it. The rulebook also requires a "clear" forward take-off for a pre-rotation call, and Medvedeva's does not qualify for that even in slow mo since she picks in before her body turns forward. Contrast this to Ashley Wagner, who in super slow mo is completely forward before picking in. And I say that as an Ashley Wagner FAN.

I for one hope the ISU never implements more strict rules around pre-rotation and adds yet more things to review in slow mo. The technical rules are busybody enough as it is, and time-consuming enough already.

 

[mary01]

Blades of Passion steering @#$% again. Is banned for this from other forums.

This thread needs to be closed.

Why does it need to be closed, just because you don't agree is no legitimite reason, this is a discussion forum and anything related to skating should be discussed freely

 

[gmyers]

Medvedeva is a great jumper who does not have any major continuing problems with her jumps.

 

[luckyguy]

... I just don't know if Medeveda's rotations are that much of an issue warranting a thread. i truly wonder what the outside world thinks and it is just us keeners who really are that picky and ick apart skaters under a microscope?

If so, we should analyze every skater.

 

[Alex D]

I didnt know that Evgenia so popular. After every competetion even after Russian Test Skate she always has personal thread. And always with bad context. Well, what can I say? Pray for your goddess, mortals.

It´s very sad,

that Evgenia has to go through the same hostility now that Adelina, Yulia had to in the years of their success. Maybe we should start making threads about forum users to show them how it feels if people pick on you as soon you appear in the public.

 

[andromache]

Maybe this thread would be productive and less bickering if this was a thread to discuss pre-rotation in general and we can analyze and discuss various skaters?

Evgenia's technique isn't great, and it does make the jumps easier for her. Easier to tack a -3T onto any jump than, say, someone with Liza's technique. That said, Evgenia isn't a cheater and her wins and scores have been deserved. There's a lot in her skating to like and praise, and she is very, very consistent, in part due to her not-great technique. The scoring system isn't built to punish skaters without textbook technique, and maybe that'll change in the future.

I really like Evgenia, but her jumps have never been my favorite, so it is a little irritating to listen to commentators talk about her like she's the second coming of Midori Ito. But that doesn't make me a hater or anti-Russian or mean that I don't think Evgenia is a bad World Champion. She really is the best in the world all-around.

There's a lot of OTT negativity about Evgenia, but there are also a lot of posters here who seem to be on the Evgenia bandwagon just because she is a Russian and she's winning, and who refuse to believe any criticism of her.

IMO, she has flaws like any skater that are worth discussing, but there is also a lot to love about her skating (also worth discussing).

 

[TGee]

Uhm, I'm sharing the view of many that pre-rotation is a significant issue that needs to be addressed across the board.

Not sure how many degrees of pre-rotation judges could reliably see on video replays given camera angles etc., but the solution may lie with a rule clarification along the lines of " not more than 1/8th rotation on pick visible at take off".

I really found the technical discussion on lutzes helpful a few weeks back. I'd prefer not to start a thread focussed on one skater when there is a general issue.

That said, Evgenia is the world champion, and as such should be looked to as a model of good technique. So, as long as it were recognized that she is not unique in this questionable technique, but represents something that BOP feels needs examination and discussion, I would feel comfortable.

BTW IMO Evgenia continues to have other technique issues that may become serious obstacles as she matures. As others have noted on the Russian Ladies thread, like other Eteri group skaters, the jump technique maximizes the potential of a pre-pubescent body.

Evegenia uses a great deal of rotational force from her trailing (right) arm. She raises it above shoulder level and uses swing thrust to get the fast rotations. While I find it distracting and not aestheticly pleasing, it is also not going to be as effective with a lower centre of gravity as she matures. Although her jumps are not as low to the ice as some othe Eteri skaters have been, I question whether she will be able to get the rotations in once she can't rely on that arm.

The shift to arms above the head may be helping her get height, but I suspect that the reason I do not find it as attractive as when some other skaters do it is again because of the thrusting swing of the trailing arm at take off.

Lastly, it may be precisely because her reliance on the thrusting swing of the trailing arm at take off that is causing the pre-rotation. Not necessarily an intentional "cheat" of less than 1/4 rotation as Donald Jackson would of called it, but more of a persistent error arising from her overall jumping style.

 

[Mrs. P]

Could that trailing arm technique also make easier to do the jumps in tano? If that's the case it takes away the difficulty of having a tano jump in the first place. I'm asking in response to TGee's assessment.

I notice that Gracie Gold also tends to raise her arm before she does her Lutz-toe combo...is that the same thing or some else entirely?

 

[TGee]

Could that trailing arm technique also make easier to do the jumps in tano? If that's the case it takes away the difficulty of having a tano jump in the first place. I'm asking in response to TGee's assessment.

I notice that Gracie Gold also tends to raise her arm before she does her Lutz-toe combo...is that the same thing or some else entirely?

Good question. I really hope that folks, especially some of the Russian fans who have been giving these techniques a lot of solid, balanced and neutral scrutiny and analysis will join in....

But there is a risk when a thread starts with a concern about only one skater that folks from that skater's country won't be comfortable joining in....

 

[gotoschool]

I just don't know if Medeveda's rotations are that much of an issue warranting a thread. i truly wonder what the outside world thinks and it is just us keeners who really are that picky and ick apart skaters under a microscope?

I think Evgenia is a very good skater, but why should those with more actual air rotation and as clean or cleaner triple lutz edges be nitpicked to death with edge,ur calls and negative GOE under a system that is designed to nit pick rotation and edges to death when Evgenia's jumps aren't and instead receive peak tech scores? It is not about picking on anybody but bearing witness to what the eyes see in slow motion replay which is the picky instrument used to deduct so many points from other skaters under COP, only actual total rotation is erroneously never measured at all.

 

[solani]

Good question. I really hope that folks, especially some of the Russian fans who have been giving these techniques a lot of solid, balanced and neutral scrutiny and analysis will join in....

But there is a risk when a thread starts with a concern about only one skater that folks from that skater's country won't be comfortable joining in....

I hope that this won't be the case - Russia has some impeccable jumpers after all. We're always talking about difficult entries, transitions that we want to see rewarded so I think talking about the actual jump is important as well.
And this isn't Evgenia's fault. She learned a certain technique that has been rewarded in the past years, probably because the ISU wanted to see more ladies doing triple-triple combos. Changing the scoring system before the next Olympics would be cruel in my opinion. But I think something should happen after that.

 

[mary01]

Maybe this thread would be productive and less bickering if this was a thread to discuss pre-rotation in general and we can analyze and discuss various skaters?

Evgenia's technique isn't great, and it does make the jumps easier for her. Easier to tack a -3T onto any jump than, say, someone with Liza's technique. That said, Evgenia isn't a cheater and her wins and scores have been deserved. There's a lot in her skating to like and praise, and she is very, very consistent, in part due to her not-great technique. The scoring system isn't built to punish skaters without textbook technique, and maybe that'll change in the future.

I really like Evgenia, but her jumps have never been my favorite, so it is a little irritating to listen to commentators talk about her like she's the second coming of Midori Ito. But that doesn't make me a hater or anti-Russian or mean that I don't think Evgenia is a bad World Champion. She really is the best in the world all-around.

There's a lot of OTT negativity about Evgenia, but there are also a lot of posters here who seem to be on the Evgenia bandwagon just because she is a Russian and she's winning, and who refuse to believe any criticism of her.

IMO, she has flaws like any skater that are worth discussing, but there is also a lot to love about her skating (also worth discussing).

The problem is her flaws do not get called and her score therefor doesn't reflect them either, and that's not fair, especially seeing the crazy inflated scores she has been getting soo easily out of nowhere

 

[Krislite]

Sadly the judges think "tanos = good SS". Just nonsensical. Maybe in near future we will see a helicopter arm air position and that will receive +3 GOE and 10.00 SS


https://youtu.be/VadIP4Wrm1w

I'm waiting for the half-Tano/half-helicopter arm positions in the air. Can't wait to see how the judges score that.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'm waiting for the half-Tano/half-helicopter arm positions in the air. Can't wait to see how the judges score that.

Has anyone Tano'd a half loop :dance2:

 

[Alex D]

Good question. I really hope that folks, especially some of the Russian fans who have been giving these techniques a lot of solid, balanced and neutral scrutiny and analysis will join in....

But there is a risk when a thread starts with a concern about only one skater that folks from that skater's country won't be comfortable joining in....

I am afraid that if the witch hunt continues like that, that there will be no more Russians left at this forum. I have seen this whole Anti Russian campaign start prior to the Olympics, where at the Europeans Russian fans were attacked and the most disgusting moment in FS history, surely happened after Sochi, where a petition against the Olympic Champion Adelina Sotnikova, received two million signatures... I am speechless about so much hate from so called "fans", people who have no heart and only follow the sport so that they can insult skaters.

 

[andromache]

The problem is her flaws do not get called and her score therefor doesn't reflect them either, and that's not fair, especially seeing the crazy inflated scores she has been getting soo easily out of nowhere

Just because she receives scores you don't agree with doesn't mean they are crazy and inflated objectively. Objectively, I think her scores are generally correct in comparison with the rest of the field - perhaps a few points too generous, but never enough to impact standings.

Her pre-rotations do not get called because no one's do. And many posters here have already commented on how it impossible to detect them in real time.

 

[sarama]

More than her pre-rotation what bothers me is the fact that low quality jumps get rewarded so much. Let's be real Evgenia's jumps (or Satoko's or Radionova's and the list goes on) are not that great, and I think it shouldn't matter if you do transitions in and out or arm variations: if the jumps are mediocre they just shouldn't get high GOEs. Especially because it's unfair to the other skaters who have way better jumping techniques: it's way more difficult to land huge/fast jumps consistently, but the skaters who do them (like Osmond, Gracie especially before Frank, Carolina) don't get rewarded accordingly, so in the end the competitions are won by consistent but not that good jumpers and I feel like it's not the right way to go, considering the fact that "the champions" are the ones who end up influencing the younger skaters. I know Liza has zero transitions, but I'd prefer the young girls to have her as a role model for jumps instead of Evgenia, but since Evgenia's jumps get better GOEs we end up with a ton of junior ladies with awful jumps but who can do them with a 'tano position.
There is another thing that is driving me crazy and that is the inconsistency of tech panels between competitions. It's understandable that GOEs and PCS vary between competitions because some judges may be more generous, some are sticter, and some subjectivity is normal, but the tech panels are out of control: if Mirai, Satoko or Rika had been at Skate America they would have finished with 15 more points at least, if Ashley had been at Skate Canada her TES would have been butchered, and I can't understand how Satoko with similar performances got significantly different scores at US classic and her step sequence was absolutely fine for one panel and invalidated by another! I hope the ISU gets this sorted out as soon as possible, it's really an important issue that messes up also with the skaters' decisions, strategies and technique adjustmensts: many times I feel like the same competition could have drastically different results if judged by two tech panels and that is just wrong. I still remember the 2014 GPF where Tutberizde had Julia do the 3Lz-3T in the short instead of 3T-3T) because the tech panel had been super lenient on that during junior ladies, and then poor Julia got an edge call on basically all her Flips across the two programs and everyone wondered what was the tech panel smoking... tech calls really shouldn't be that unreliable

 

[andromache]

I am afraid that if the witch hunt continues like that, that there will be no more Russians left at this forum. I have seen this whole Anti Russian campaign start prior to the Olympics, where at the Europeans Russian fans were attacked and the most disgusting moment in FS history, surely happened after Sochi, where a petition against the Olympic Champion Adelina Sotnikova, received two million signatures... I am speechless about so much hate from so called "fans", people who have no heart and only follow the sport so that they can insult skaters.

I think calling it a "witch hunt" and an "anti Russian campaign" is a little ridiculous. At least here on GS. There are occasional trolls, sure, but nothing awful. As for the rest of the interest - it doesn't need to ruin discussion here. Yulia Lipnitskaya is very loved here. So are allllll of the Russian pairs. Not to mention how intense the fandom is for Elena and Ruslan. Criticism of Russian skaters doesn't not equal anti-Russian. Granted, the most successful skaters are going to undergo the most scrutiny, and that's just normal. During Tara versus Michelle in the late 90s people started picking on Tara for having a flutz. People hated her. But everything turned out okay.

 

[koatcue]

I think calling it a "witch hunt" and an "anti Russian campaign" is a little ridiculous. At least here on GS. There are occasional trolls, sure, but nothing awful. As for the rest of the interest - it doesn't need to ruin discussion here. Yulia Lipnitskaya is very loved here. So are allllll of the Russian pairs. Not to mention how intense the fandom is for Elena and Ruslan. Criticism of Russian skaters doesn't not equal anti-Russian. Granted, the most successful skaters are going to undergo the most scrutiny, and that's just normal. During Tara versus Michelle in the late 90s people started picking on Tara for having a flutz. People hated her. But everything turned out okay.

Agree with this. I think it's not that they are Russians, but that they are successful and considered to be the best in the field at the time (Evgenia, Yulia, Liza). Every now and then people want their favourites to do well and even better, so they start picking on skaters who happen to be the main competition to them. So it's okay by me. Haters may hate, but strong skaters will slay