Tom Dickson Interview

[GGFan]

It might be due to political stances, but I think that's beyond the scope of this thread.

(But I wouldn't call them "ahistorical", at all.)

There have been wars and differences with European powers and there was the Cold War of course. I know we also have some geopolitical issues of the moment. However, none of that means that the default position on a skating board should be that every critique boils down to geopolitics.

It's not that deep folks. Someone can just see something and not like it. It's a very lazy argument to always accuse people of being anti-Russian. Again, this is not a country that has been denied medals or influence in the sport. First world problems trying to masquerade as something deeper.

 

[chopinskate]

There have been wars and differences with European powers and there was the Cold War of course. I know we also have some geopolitical issues of the moment. However, none of that means that the default position on a skating board should be that every critique boils down to geopolitics.

I agree with you that it shouldn't affect skating. I'm just pointing out that there might be reasons as to why they might feel attacked. So I don't really agree with the "ahistorical" part (and even the recent situations with US), but I do agree that it shouldn't be roped in here.

Not to mention that the Russian skaters are indeed attacked a bit more than the other skaters. So a learned-bias might translate over to such an interview.

 

[tars]

If I have to hear an anti-Russian complaint one more time! You can hardly make any critiques without hearing it and as a minority it's beyond annoying to me at this point.

Where did all of this insecurity come from? Russia is not a historically disadvantaged nation and Russian is not a oppressed nationality or language. It's the largest nation on earth and has myriad of resources and nuclear weapons from here to tomorrow. Russia has long had outsized influence on the sport and several of my favorites (including the inspiration for my name) are Russian

Now if someone from Somalia or Honduras was complaining I could understand. These complaints about poor helpless Russia are completely ahistorical and meant to shut down criticism. Sorry, but I'm not having it and I will continue to critique bad skating or lack of musicality, etc. when I see it :dev2:

So now you're going to decide which skaters' surnames can be deformed and ridiculed, based on historical, resource and military background of their countries?
Now, that makes sense...

 

[GGFan]

So now you're going to decide which skaters' surnames can be deformed and ridiculed, based on historical, resource and military background of their countries?
Now, that makes sense...

You're trying to make fetch happen and it's really not. He said ZagMeds to represent a style of skating. It's not a racial slur or swastika. This is just another variation of the age argument (i.e don't critique Alina because she's too young). You're trying to shut down criticism by making it about something that it's not.

ETA: now if this were a board about Hollywood I would definitely say that Russophobia should be central topic of discussion

 

[tars]

Have you ever conducted an interview? I have--lots of them--and Dickson is a good interview. He didn't go in-depth on Marin Honda, in part, because she wasn't at the Olympics--and it was a discussion of skaters at the Olympics. He was critical of several other skaters besides Marin Honda.

Yes, he was civilized in his critiques of Honda AND Medvedeva and Zagitova. It's interesting to me that you're busy fussing about his daring to critique those two skaters instead of, say, actually disputing his critiques. I think he had some good points about the lack of flow, sustained elements and lack directionality.

Was anything he said about their skating wrong? I don't see you actually disputing what he said, more that how dare he! say that.

Are you even reading my posts? :hslap:
I just wrote, I accept whatever he says about them - but in civilized way, which excludes deforming and ridiculing human beings' surnames in the process. We just don't do that to people in western civilization. A name is the most important human attribute and our identity basis.
Do I really have to explain things like that to people participating in internet forum through an electronic device? :reye:

 

[brightphoton]

I'd completely cool with him saying "Zagitova and Medvedeva's skating sucks b...s, they look like giraffes on the ice", but twisting their surnames to create some derogatory national/ethnic group of "Russian losers" is quite chauvinistic.

Hmm, yeah, no, you wouldn't be okay with that at all if he said they were giraffes on ice, along with some cussing

The only difference is that you'd make a bunch of posts about "omg he called her an animal" instead of "omg he put two of their names together"

 

[GGFan]

I agree with you that it shouldn't affect skating. I'm just pointing out that there might be reasons as to why they might feel attacked. So I don't really agree with the "ahistorical" part (and even the recent situations with US), but I do agree that it shouldn't be roped in here.

Not to mention that the Russian skaters are indeed attacked a bit more than the other skaters. So a learned-bias might translate over to such an interview.

I think it's all contextual and there's a heavy recency issue here. Yes, there's been heavy criticism of some in Russia but I feel like a lot of the criticism is a criticism of recent style. In the sense that some us expect more from Russia because they've had such an influence on the sport.

Maybe it's unfair but I'm gonna criticize Candyman heavily. Partly because it's tacky but partly because of my absolute adoration of G/G, B/S and Belousova & Protopopov.

I criticize the blind lady program because I loved Zhulin as an ice dancer. I'm just left scratching my head. So yes, I'm often roasting Russia but it's not because of any Russophobia. (What would my life be without Tolstoy and Dostoevsky??) It's because I want them to step up their games.

On the other hand I've been over the moon about Dmitri Aliev :dance: Tom worked with Mishin and I'm sure has many Russian skaters he loves, why would the default argument for some be that he's anti-Russian?

 

[chopinskate]

I think it's all contextual and there's a heavy recency issue here. Yes, there's been heavy criticism of some in Russia but I feel like a lot of the criticism is a criticism of recent style. In the sense that some us expect more from Russia because they've had such an influence on the sport.

Maybe it's unfair but I'm gonna criticize Candyman heavily. Partly because it's tacky but partly because of my absolute adoration of G/G, B/S and Belousova & Protopopov.

I criticize the blind lady program because I loved Zhulin as an ice dancer. I'm just left scratching my head. So yes, I'm often roasting Russia but it's not because of any Russophobia. (What would my life be without Tolstoy and Dostoevsky??) It's because I want them to step up their games.

On the other hand I've been over the Moon about Dmitri Aliev :dance: Tom worked with Mishin and I'm sure has many Russian skaters he loves, why would the default argument for some be that he's anti-Russian?

It's recent enough... At least, it all began with Sotnikova.

 

[tars]

Hmm, yeah, no, you wouldn't be okay with that at all if he said they were giraffes on ice, along with some cussing

The only difference is that you'd make a bunch of posts about "omg he called her an animal" instead of "omg he put two of their names together"

Please be so kind to stop insinuating you know anything about me, let alone my potential actions. It's childish and arrogant.

 

[GGFan]

It's recent enough... At least, it all began with Sotnikova.

There may also be a generational issue in that recent fans of the sport think that because Adelina, Evgenia, Alina get criticism that everyone is anti-Russian. That's just 4 years--and represents a blip on the radar screen to me Those of us who have been watching for a while take a longer view. I may not like some of the things coming out of Russia at the moment but within a year or two things will likely be different. The sport is not static.

 

[chopinskate]

There may also be a generational issue in that recent fans of the sport think that because Adelina, Evgenia, Alina get criticism that everyone is anti-Russian. That's just 4 years--and represents a blip on the radar screen to me Those of us who have been watching for a while take a longer view. I may not like some of the things coming out of Russia at the moment but within a year or two things will likely be different. The sport is not static.

Oh, I have no doubt. There are more -- several of the scandals in ice dance and pairs. I'm just pointing out that someone who sees a Russian skater being criticized, they may start to feel it might be because they're Russian, due to some learned-stress.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Hyper criticism breads hyper defensiveness. This is the heart of TSL!

I can’t really comment because I refuse to ever click a TSL link again but based on some of the responses it would seem a current choreographer is publicly critiquing current competitors in a rather demeaning way. That seems really tacky to me and rather unprofessional but I’m sure there are many folks who will get a rise out of that type of behavior. :confused2:

I don’t really think Zhenya and Zagitova have very similar styles either. :scratch:

 

[chopinskate]

I don’t really think Zhenya and Zagitova have very similar styles either. :scratch:

Not interpretative styles... He was speaking about their skating skills, and how their flaws are very similar, and show which school they're from.

(And I disagree, their styles of doing too many transitions in too little time are indeed similar.)

I enjoyed it. Tom Dickson made TSL enjoyable. That's an achievement if there ever was one.

I guess I didn't mind his portmanteau because everyone here already calls them "Zag" and "Med".

 

[GGFan]

Hyper criticism breads hyper defensiveness. This is the heart of TSL!

I can’t really comment because I refuse to ever click a TSL link again but based on some of the responses it would seem a current choreographer is publicly critiquing current competitors in a rather demeaning way. That seems really tacky to me and rather unprofessional but I’m sure there are many folks who will get a rise out of that type of behavior. :confused2:

I don’t really think Zhenya and Zagitova have very similar styles either. :scratch:

I just want to clarify:

1. Tom Dickson is in no way affiliated with TSL. He was being interviewed.

2. Tom broke no professionalism standards. There is nothing in the profession of choreography that prevents or discourages criticism. It actually is quite natural for a choreographer to have opinions and to voice them.

3. As you mentioned, you have very little context because you did not watch.

4. Whether they have similar styles or not all depends on your vantage point. One can require 1-100% of things to be the same for something to be similar. There's room for both you and Tom to be correct depending on how you set up the parameters.

 

[schizoanalyst]

I got harsher criticism from my middle school art teacher for my landscapes than what Dickson did here in supposedly demeaning, dehumanizing, and debasing them

 

[tars]

I don’t really think Zhenya and Zagitova have very similar styles either. :scratch:

And Sotskova. The hosts tried to get something more from him, because the guy spent half on the interview on smiling, rolling eyes, laughing and dramatic pauses, so they asked about her as well.
Of course he had nothing interesting to say (probably hasn't even watched her skate), so he put her to "Zagmeds" with another pretentious smile.

Some of those "experts" invited to the show clearly don't even watch non-American skaters, apart from those connected to them, but they can't just say that, so they play their smirking "oh, those tacky Russians/shy Japanese" convo game, that is completely uninformative, empty and quite pathetic tbh.
I don't care much, as long as they don't offend athletes I respect.

 

[chopinskate]

I got harsher criticism from my middle school art teacher for my landscapes than what Dickson did here in supposedly demeaning, dehumanizing, and debasing them

Did they tell you you aren't good at adding perspective? :no:

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

2. Tom broke no professionalism standards. There is nothing in the profession of choreography that prevents or discourages criticism. It actually is quite natural for a choreographer to have opinions and to voice them.

That’s really unfortunate that people feel this way. No matter what sport I follow I always find discrediting the competition to be a tacky way to conduct yourself. YMMV.

3. As you mentioned, you have very little context because you did not watch.

Totally agree which is why I noted I was only responding to responses in this thread.

 

[GGFan]

I got harsher criticism from my middle school art teacher for my landscapes than what Dickson did here in supposedly demeaning, dehumanizing, and debasing them

Exactly. Overuse of these words make them less meaningful over time. There are actual situations that deserve those terms and this is not even in the same galaxy.

 

[GGFan]

That’s really unfortunate that people feel this way. No matter what sport I follow I always find discrediting the competition to be a tacky way to conduct yourself. YMMV.

Lots of professions allow for and encourage robust critique. People have points of view and disagree all the time. His opinion is not changing the outcome of the competition. He was just answering questions and was quite charming in doing so.