Two Rules That Need To Change:

[Jasper]

I'm sorry, I've had it.

The age eligibility rule for Worlds/Olympics needs to change, and this year's US Nationals proves that. Who is going to Worlds for the US? Ashley Wagner certainly deserves the spot, but Liang, or Hacker, or Meissner after her horrific season? It'd be so much more exciting (and successful for the US) if it was Nagasu, Flatt, and/or Zhang. If the girls are tough enough to be training and practicing every day, and competing all across the Grand Prix circuit, they should be allowed to go to Worlds. The argument against this makes zero sense, zero.

Secondly, the ISU needs to open up wildcard slots for the Worlds/Olympics teams as well. In particular, the US and Japanese ladies are going to be consistently screwed over the next decade unless more than 3 girls are admitted from each country. It's not fair that skaters will be left behind who deserve to go and compete, like Nakano in 2006 or Suguri last year or who knows who next year from the US (with Nagasu, Zhang, Wagner, Flatt, and Meissner all competing for 2-3 spots). And let's not forget that Asada should have been competing for Gold in Torino but couldn't because of stupid age eligibility.

Let's cross our fingers and hope that the US ladies can maintain 3 spots for the 2009 Worlds team, b/c if it's just 2, the competition is going to be fierce but really really sad. (((((( Especially considering it'll be in LA.

I'm just angry right now with the ISU.

 

[feraina]

Let's cross our fingers and hope that the US ladies can maintain 3 spots for the 2009 Worlds team, b/c if it's just 2, the competition is going to be fierce but really really sad. (((((( Especially considering it'll be in LA.

Especially if either Mirai or Caroline can't go to Worlds in LA, because they both live in that area!

I totally agree with you. I've been arguing for lowering the ISU age limit to 14 along with GP's all along, or else eliminating it altogether. I also don't think that having wild cards to Olympics is a bad idea, although I don't think it will ever come to pass. Because the philosophy of Olympics is not only to allow the very best athletes battle it out among themselves, but also to bring all nations together in a festive, peaceful, athletic event. And allowing the athletically stronger nations to dominate a particular sport means that the weaker nations with budding athletes would have a really hard time developing that sport.

 

[GoldMedalist]

Those weaker nations still get to send their skater, though...it's not like the other countries are disallowing that opportunity.

People are just arguing that more of the best skaters should be allowed to compete.

 

[Medusa]

Because the philosophy of Olympics is not only to allow the very best athletes battle it out among themselves, but also to bring all nations together in a festive, peaceful, athletic event. And allowing the athletically stronger nations to dominate a particular sport means that the weaker nations with budding athletes would have a really hard time developing that sport.

I remember that we had a topic about the 3 per country restrictions a while ago and back then I said it made no sense. But now - after watching Euros - I think it does. On the one hand - if you don't give the small countries a chance to participate the skaters won't get better, the moment you start allowing more US and Japanese skaters in, not as successful skaters from other countries will be the ones to suffer.

These rules increase the diversity in figure skating.
For example Lambiel and Verner, who as the only competitors from their respective countries, participated lots of times in worlds and euros and started with placements in the top twenty or even lower, then top ten and then started winning medals. None of them would have ever won a medal if there wasn't the rule that every ISU-member can send one skater.

And I think both of them, but especially Lambiel, made figure skating more interesting with creative and unique skating. In the US, Russia, China and Japan skaters often have similar styles (NOT talking about Weir - Lysacek here), the same choreographers (Morozov, Lori Nichol) and sometimes in these countries it seems to be more like a mass production of skaters. Lambiel stayed with Swiss and other Western European coaches (except for his jumps, I think he worked with Mishin on his jumps for some time?), and that practically allowed him to get a different style, to develop new stuff instead of becoming another Morozov-Puppet. So I think the 3 per country rule really allows more diversity and creativity in figure skating.

As for the age rule - I am totally against different age regulations in Grand Prix and other ISU-events, or Nationals for that matter. Make it 16 for everything. But everything below 16 just sounds like child labour in my ears. Sorry, but it just does. And the Junior circuit is less demanding, less exposed to the public - even if the kids are travelling it seems to me much more appropriate than the Senior circuit.

 

[Mafke]

I'm in favor of retaining (or raising!) the age limit for seniors. If a country chooses to allow international jr skaters to compete for their national title then that should not necessarily affect international policy.

On the other hand, I'm in favor of restricting the total competitors to worlds (without country limits) _and_ simultaneously giving smaller countries more chances to send skaters to GP events (and second tier international events).

The Glorious Republic of Flutzistan is better served by sending two or three skaters to events where they'll do both an SP and an LP than by being able to send a single skater to worlds (who won't make it to the lp).

Country limits make more sense for the over-hyped festival of performance-enhancing drugs and belligerent nationalism known as the olympics (can you tell i'm not a fan?).

 

[SusanBeth]

I remember that we had a topic about the 3 per country restrictions a while ago and back then I said it made no sense. But now - after watching Euros - I think it does. On the one hand - if you don't give the small countries a chance to participate the skaters won't get better, the moment you start allowing more US and Japanese skaters in, not as successful skaters from other countries will be the ones to suffer.

These rules increase the diversity in figure skating.
For example Lambiel and Verner, who as the only competitors from their respective countries, participated lots of times in worlds and euros and started with placements in the top twenty or even lower, then top ten and then started winning medals. None of them would have ever won a medal if there wasn't the rule that every ISU-member can send one skater.

And I think both of them, but especially Lambiel, made figure skating more interesting with creative and unique skating. In the US, Russia, China and Japan skaters often have similar styles (NOT talking about Weir - Lysacek here), the same choreographers (Morozov, Lori Nichol) and sometimes in these countries it seems to be more like a mass production of skaters. Lambiel stayed with Swiss and other Western European coaches (except for his jumps, I think he worked with Mishin on his jumps for some time?), and that practically allowed him to get a different style, to develop new stuff instead of becoming another Morozov-Puppet. So I think the 3 per country rule really allows more diversity and creativity in figure skating.

As for the age rule - I am totally against different age regulations in Grand Prix and other ISU-events, or Nationals for that matter. Make it 16 for everything. But everything below 16 just sounds like child labour in my ears. Sorry, but it just does. And the Junior circuit is less demanding, less exposed to the public - even if the kids are travelling it seems to me much more appropriate than the Senior circuit.

I completely agree.

You can't shut out a good portion of the world and think that's good for the sport.Skating would become stagnant. Every country that participates enriches the sport. I keep bringing up the example that China has set. I remember watching them in the 70's. I admired their spirit more than I can say, but they were terrible. Look at them now. They could not have developed their skaters if they had not had the opportunity to compete and learn from it.

I also believe age restrictions should be uniform. There shouldn't be this overlap. I thought the comment on child labor was very apt. I know there are strict laws regarding it. I don't understand why they wouldn't apply to kids who are training too. It is extremely hard and potentially risky work. I have often wondered if child protective agencies just turn a blind eye to it.

 

[redhotcoach]

Those weaker nations still get to send their skater, though...it's not like the other countries are disallowing that opportunity.

People are just arguing that more of the best skaters should be allowed to compete.

Problem is - the greater nation of Flutizstan, which doesn't have a strong skating program of its own - is now being represented by Jane & John Doe from Timbuctoo, USA or Canada - because Flutizstan gives them citizenship! So the weaker countries are really being represented by skaters who couldn't make it out of their own country -- and are now getting the experience of lifetime!

There have been quite a few skaters who have used their parents citizenship lately - to get out from under the heavy burden of skating talent that will never allow them to represent their country at the Olympics or World's etc......Switch allegiance - and guess what? 4CC, Jr Worlds' Senior Worlds, guaranteed spot at 2010 Olympics without really trying.......

Look at Canadian-born, American raised, British women's champion (through father's Carribean citizenship) and now French pair competitor Vanessa James ...How many times can the ISU allow a skater to change nationalities?

 

[Winnipeg]

I think the age limit rule should go.................I believe it is there to prevent injury. However, the younger skaters (as stated by Mr. Button) are doing the jumps already anyway so what is the diff?

The worlds is supposed to have the best and therefore it should not matter if you are 14 or 15 IMO. Also, age is different for everyone so some might need to go to 17 to be protected from injury whereas others do not.................it should be up to the skater and her/his family and doctor to decide what is too much.

WRT the other matter, I prefer seeing world representation.

 

[SusanBeth]

Problem is - the greater nation of Flutizstan, which doesn't have a strong skating program of its own - is now being represented by Jane & John Doe from Timbuctoo, USA or Canada - because Flutizstan gives them citizenship! So the weaker countries are really being represented by skaters who couldn't make it out of their own country -- and are now getting the experience of lifetime!

But those Flutizstan citizens will be watching and rooting for "their" champion. Some might be inspired to try skating. Next thing you know, they truly have their own and our Too-weak-to-really-make-it skaters will have to stay home. That's unless we get to take Flutizstan's opportunity for ourselves, then we can send our own Too-weak-to-really-make-it skaters to Worlds.

 

[Ladskater]

In figure skating it takes time for rules to change. Look at Ice Dance for example. It's changed enormously over the years. The ice dancers are now allowed to use vocals where before they had to use stricly music and they now do spins and leaps in their programs. Things do change. As the younger set arrive on the scene more and more, we may see the eligibilty rule change as well. Just be patient.

 

[sillylionlove]

I think my only problem with the age rule is that it is ok to to be 14 or 15 and skate in the Grand Prix but not at worlds. It makes no sense. There should be a set age for every event, international and national.

 

[Medusa]

I think the age limit rule should go.................I believe it is there to prevent injury. However, the younger skaters (as stated by Mr. Button) are doing the jumps already anyway so what is the diff?

The worlds is supposed to have the best and therefore it should not matter if you are 14 or 15 IMO. Also, age is different for everyone so some might need to go to 17 to be protected from injury whereas others do not.................it should be up to the skater and her/his family and doctor to decide what is too much.

Don't the Russians have an 11-year-old that can master all the triple jumps? Didn't she manage the highest TES at Russian Senior Nationals? Her basic skating skills were not so good this year - but next year she will probably make the podium. The Chinese have a very talented girl too, also 11 or 12.

Yes! Let's delete the eligibilty rule! I am all for 11 and 12 year old girls skating at olympics and worlds. Wait, not only the girls, didn't Plushenko master all Triples at 11, too? Then let skate the little boys too! Mao would probably have made Top Ten at worlds at the age of 12.

You want 14 as the new minimum age instead of 16? Let's say you get 14 (because right now the US have great 14-year-old girls). Well, the Russians are 100% petition for 12 as the minimum age then, so next year they don't have to send Doronina, but their little pre-teen!

I am really looking forward to seeing all these little kids in figure skating, at least they do what they are told! Of course you need babysitters at the hotels, they aren't even allowed to be out alone after 8 p.m. - so you need special rules for them to be at competitions after 8p.m. But hey, for seeing these little babies jump - we do everything.

 

[clairecloutier]

I agree with the current age restrictions. The silly thing is that they only apply to Worlds. So a 13-year-old could win the Grand Prix Final--the second-biggest event of the year--but not go to Worlds. That makes zero sense. Either apply the age restriction to all international events, or eliminate it. I favor keeping it.

I do like the idea of creating some wild-card spots for Worlds. Interesting concept. I see no reason not to do it, as long as it's only adding new skaters to Worlds (rather than taking over the existing spots of smaller countries).

 

[gkelly]

I agree with the current age restrictions. The silly thing is that they only apply to Worlds. So a 13-year-old could win the Grand Prix Final--the second-biggest event of the year--but not go to Worlds.

No. An older 14-year-old or younger 15-year-old could win the Grand Prix Final but not go to Worlds (e.g., Mao Asada, 2006). A 13-year-old could not skate on the senior Grand Prix.

Current international age minimums as of previous July 1 are:

13 for JUNIOR Grand Prix and Junior Worlds

14 for Senior Grand Prix and "senior B" internationals

15 for senior ISU championships (Europeans, Four Continents, Worlds) and Olympics

 

[hockeyfan228]

I also think the age eligibility rules for senior events should be changed to be the same for all senior events, regardless of the cut-off.

Not all nations are guaranteed a spot at the Olympics. There is a cut-off from the previous Worlds for guaranteed number of spots per country, and then all other nations except, if I remember correctly, the host nation, must compete at a qualifying event (Karl-Schaeffer for Torino, and those scores counted as Personal Bests for selection for the post-Olympic Grand Prix), where the balance of the competitors are selected. The total number of competitors is set by discipline.

Skaters from countries that have qualified for spots can also compete in the qualifying event, but they can't earn placements.

I think that each year, there should be a qualifying event for GP, for skaters who will age-qualify for Seniors (and who would lose junior eligibility by competing), but haven't competed in any qualifying events for the year (or have only skated at major championships, but didn't make it into the Free Skate/Dance), where the scores would be ranked among the Personal Bests for selection in the following year's GP events. There could be a cut-off of number of scores to be included for skaters from nations who already qualify vs. nations with no qualifiers. It could take place around 4C's, so that the judges could be leveraged and the coaches wouldn't have to travel again. No prize money, but a chance to get a GP berth the following year.

The net result would likely be that many of the weaker teams/skaters would not receive a second GP berth, which would be taken by skaters from stronger nations, and some of the skaters from weaker federations would be bumped from the top 75 list. (In dance and pairs, almost all of these are juniors.) But I also think that everyone on the PB top 75 list should be guaranteed one spot, as long as they are competing in seniors and there are spots left, before two spots are given to anyone outside the top 10.

 

[dlkksk8fan]

Yes! Let's delete the eligibilty rule! I am all for 11 and 12 year old girls skating at olympics and worlds. Wait, not only the girls, didn't Plushenko master all Triples at 11, too? Then let skate the little boys too! Mao would probably have made Top Ten at worlds at the age of 12.

You want 14 as the new minimum age instead of 16? Let's say you get 14 (because right now the US have great 14-year-old girls). Well, the Russians are 100% petition for 12 as the minimum age then, so next year they don't have to send Doronina, but their little pre-teen!

I am really looking forward to seeing all these little kids in figure skating, at least they do what they are told! Of course you need babysitters at the hotels, they aren't even allowed to be out alone after 8 p.m. - so you need special rules for them to be at competitions after 8p.m. But hey, for seeing these little babies jump - we do everything.

I say keep the age minimum of 16 and don't let skaters that can't qualify for worlds because of age skate in seniors. I don't care how many triples they can do. I hate to see a little girl as our national champion.

 

[Kypma]

The thing with heightening the limit to 16 years of age is that Junior competitions are going to become just like seniors... remember that Mao Asada landed a 3A at Jr Worlds, and did Yu-Na Kim land a 3-3 at Jr Worlds as well? Then the girls would take the same pounding on their articulations... so, if the limit is raised (or even if it's just evened out), I'd like to se restrictions on the jumps allowed in Junior competition. I don't mind all triples, but 3-3 and 3A seem like a little much... as does the quad.

Kypma

 

[fumie_fumie]

Rule of thumb

Sports, the baboon nationalism and performance enhancing drugs go hand-in-hand. Welcome to the world of sports!!!!

All the gymnasts representing their respective countries in the Olympics are 12-14 year olds and have their coaches changing their diapers. Occasionally, you get to see the elderly statesman 18-year old lady with commanding presence on the floor routine. It works for the gymnastics, why wouldn't it work for figure skating, eh (I'm being a bit sarcastic today)?

 

[bekalc]

Rule of thumb

Sports, the baboon nationalism and performance enhancing drugs go hand-in-hand. Welcome to the world of sports!!!!

All the gymnasts representing their respective countries in the Olympics are 12-14 year olds and have their coaches changing their diapers. Occasionally, you get to see the elderly statesman 18-year old lady with commanding presence on the floor routine. It works for the gymnastics, why wouldn't it work for figure skating, eh (I'm being a bit sarcastic today)?

Well Lilia Pod won her Olympic title I believe when she was 18, and that was back when young ones were allowed to compete.

Elena Davydova was in her twenties. Now gymanstics does have age limits.

Personally, I think age limits are for the most part a good thing. Because well I think why not let the young talented skaters get to just skate for awhile. And get use to the pressure gradually... I don't think missing worlds is the worst thing in the world that could happen to Mirai Nagasu or Rachael Flatt..

This being said I feel like the Olympics are different from Worlds. The Olympics are only every four years, and a lot can happen in four years. I feel it's quite terrible that Mao and Yu-na didn't get to compete, when they were among the best in the world. And so what if perhaps they would have medaled. Given how the Olympic medalists skated. Irina and Sasha played Zambonis and Shizuka hit only 5 triples. I don't think Mao and Yu-na medaling would have been so terrible for the sport. (Although perhaps a bright star might have pulled a Tara, which I think the ISU is worried about)

I would institute a rule that says anyone who has medaled at Junior Worlds, can skate in the Olympics and Worlds in the Olympic year as well.. I feel like missing out in the Olympics has to be a lot worse then losing out in a worlds. And if Mao and Yu-na don't medal at the Vancover Olympics, it's always going to be a what could have been for them, and that's not fair.

Besides there are age limits to get into Junior worlds, so it's not like we are really going to have a 12 year old champion.

The same goes for Nastia Liukin who had to miss out in gymanstics four years ago and Bross now what happens if four years from now Bross isn't healthy. And Nastia has had all those injuries and things since then.

 

[julietvalcouer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't gymnastics have a higher Olympic age requirement than figure skating? Mostly because people were so horrified by the emaciated prepubescents of the 1990s?

I'm sorry, but the "it's not fair" argument doesn't wash. LIFE ain't fair, and sports certainly isn't. It's not fair to a whole crop of skaters that they decided to stagger the Olympics between Summer and Winter, giving a bunch of skaters a second chance who might not have gotten them and throwing off the cycle for others. It's not fair that there have always been skaters who peak at the wrong time for the Olympics, who coulda-shoulda-woulda if only it had been the year before or the year after...well, tough. That's life. No matter how good you are, you do not have a God-given right to go to the Olympics.

Count me as one who'd like to see it at least 16 across the board. There is nothing enjoyable about watching little girls perform. They are not artists yet. They don't have the technique, the physique, or the life experience to be artists. Not to mention a creepiness factor involved when it comes to watching any attempt at depiciting love or sensuality. Their technique may or may not be good, but they are not the complete package. There's a reason that an eighteen-year-old ballerina is considered remarkably young to be a soloist or principle--she doesn't have the presentation skills yet. Neither do little girls. Jumping ability is not supposed to be everything.