US Olympic Team Announced

[treblemakerem]

To ignore a skater who has proven they can land six beautiful quads over a skater who has repeatedly shown There technical content is not competitive is insanity.

He landed 6 quads at Nationals. That’s one competition. In international competitions this year he landed 2 quads total with positive goe. I think if he has been skating anywhere close to what he did at nationals consistently this year he would be on the team He skated lower content on the jgp and even that wasn’t clean.

 

[moonvine]

They could've sent Adam AND Ross over Vincent, So obviously they chose Vincent,
There was not

And how about the newbie Polina Edmunds who went over Mirai?

I'm just trying to show that in the past they DID choose with that motivation, But here they didn't,
That's why I suspect favouritism, It's like every time they will abuse any form of the criteria that fits them at the moment,
But as long as there is "body of work" you can't argue favouritism, Though Jason also made the GPF before the Olympics
4 years ago, It wasn't enough then...

In the past, the criteria were not disclosed ahead of time. (that I know of. If they were, please link them because I’d like to have a look.)

This time, the criteria were disclosed ahead of time and were applied equally across all disciplines.

If USFS had decided to ignore their criteria, that would have shown favoritism.

https://twitter.com/rockerskating/status/1480284577012883459?s=21

 

[el henry]

I know this is a bit of a topic drift... but it's related to comments made, and I honestly don't know the answers.

Question: How much autonomy does a skater have in deciding to move to senior rank? Does the federation have input or ultimate authority, or does the junior just say, "Hey, I'm a senior now" and that's the end of that?

Also: How does a skater earn assignments to senior events? Or junior events, for that matter. Could someone say, "Hey, I'm entering Cranberry" and they're in? Of course I know there are selection procedures for major events and rules for the GP series, but what about Challengers and Senior B events? Who decides the rosters for those, and who funds the expenses?

I know of one skater's experience: guess which one

The skaters do have autonomy. USFS asked Jason Brown to stay junior for the 2013-14 season. He and his team said, nope, and decided to compete as a senior. Now, USFS could not have been that upset because he was a replacement entry in Skate America in 2013. The then-TEB (France) selected him to compete, where he won bronze.

Skaters *always* pay their own expenses. USFS may give them a certain amount, but the skater is the one who decides how to allocate that money. (ETA: this may be incorrect).

For senior Bs and summer comps, I believe a skater needs fed approval. The fed may even say, "We are approving you for this one". I cannot imagine USFS withholding the approval from Ilia.

 

[moonvine]

I know this is a bit of a topic drift... but it's related to comments made, and I honestly don't know the answers.

Question: How much autonomy does a skater have in deciding to move to senior rank? Does the federation have input or ultimate authority, or does the junior just say, "Hey, I'm a senior now" and that's the end of that?

Also: How does a skater earn assignments to senior events? Or junior events, for that matter. Could someone say, "Hey, I'm entering Cranberry" and they're in? Of course I know there are selection procedures for major events and rules for the GP series, but what about Challengers and Senior B events? Who decides the rosters for those, and who funds the expenses?

I only know the answer to specific parts.

Anyone can (for the most part) enter Cranberry. SCOB reserves the right to decide if a skater would be a better fit for the Cup instead of the International. I’m not sure if they used that at all or not. I think they would use it if there were “too many” entries. They keep a really strict time schedule.

As far as I know, USFS decides the rosters for Challengers and Senior Bs. If a skater is one of the top skaters in that discipline (for instance Alexa and Brandon) they can ask USFS to send them to specific competitions and USFS is likely to accommodate that request. Other than that I don’t know.

Skaters pay for their coaches to travel and stay.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

They could've sent Adam AND Ross over Vincent, So obviously they chose Vincent,
There was not much "body of work" for Vincent back then, So that must've been the reason

And how about the newbie Polina Edmunds who went over Mirai?

I'm just trying to show that in the past the DID choose out of that motivation, But here they didn't,
That's why I suspect favouritism, But as long as there is "body of work" there can't be favouritism I guess,
But remember, Jason also made the GPF before the Olympics 4 years ago...

A lot of people complained about Rippon over Miner because Rippon ended up 4th, but Rippon really did much better than Miner internationally (whose only good competition was 2018 Nationals, and only GP medal that quadrennial was 2015 Rostelecom and every other GP was 6th or worse).

Rippon had two GP silvers and qualified for the GPF (and scored 16 points higher than Miner at Finlandia - 249.88, and 47 points higher than Miner at Skate America - 266.45) Miner had really subpar performances that season - scores of 219.96 (ACI), 233.72 (Finlandia), 219.62 (Skate America).

Zhou's scores that season were 250.01 - Finlandia (where he beat both Rippon and Miner for silver); 256.66 at CoC, 222.21 at IDF. It also helps that Zhou slayed at JWC (I mean, look at this FS protocol! http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/wjc2017/wjc2017_JuniorMen_FS_Scores.pdf; 104.66 TES.... and his total score of 258.11 was almost 10 points higher than Miner's total PB of 248.92 -- back in 2015.... without a ChSq1 at that). And he essentially tied with Miner anyways at Nationals. So it's no surprise that he was selected over Miner.

It's interesting the parallel trajectory in Zhou's 2017-2018 Olympic season and Zhou's 2021-2022 Olympic season -- two solid first events to start the season, one comparatively subpar showing at his second GP event (about 35 points less than his best), an okay Nationals where he gets bronze over a fan fave who has no reliable/clean quad but excellent artistry. And then Zhou went to the Olympics (where he placed 6th). Obviously this was 4 years ago and things change but here's hoping the same thing happens where Zhou bounces back at the Olympics. Not to mention he's much better in several areas than he was 4 years ago.

 

[Mista Ekko]

In the past, the criteria were not disclosed ahead of time. (that I know of. If they were, please link them because I’d like to have a look.)

This time, the criteria were disclosed ahead of time and were applied equally across all disciplines.

If USFS had decided to ignore their criteria, that would have shown favoritism.

https://twitter.com/rockerskating/status/1480284577012883459?s=21

So you're saying if the USFS had chosen Malinin for the Olympic team over Brown that would've been
favouritism because Malinin can't showcase enough body of work?


BTW, I don't see any sense comparing the results of someone who competed Senior events with
someone who competed junior ones, The judges naturally don't score junior competitions as high as they would
senior ones.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think if he has been skating anywhere close to what he did at nationals consistently this year he would be on the team He skated lower content on the jgp and even that wasn’t clean.

Aren't skaters trying to peak at Nationals and have their scores trend upwards? I mean, it's supposed to be among the most important events to consider for selection.

 

[moonvine]

So you're saying if the USFS had chosen Malinin for the Olympic team over Brown that would've been
favouritism because Malinin can't showcase enough body of work?

Did you read the criteria? Did you look at the graphic Jackie made up? I’d post it here, but not a premium member.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Did you read the criteria? Did you look at the graphic Jackie made up? I’d post it here, but not a premium member.

I didn't ask you about the criteria, And I edited another comment in the post about the content of it,

I asked you, Because you said ignoring the criteria would be favouritism, How would you
have felt if the USFS went With Malinin, Would that be an invalid decision in your opinion?
Because of the criteria comparing Junior to Senior events?

 

[moonvine]

Aren't skaters trying to peak at Nationals and have their scores trend upwards? I mean, it's supposed to be among the most important events to consider for selection.

Yes they are. Did you read the criteria? Jason and Ilya were both Priority Group 3. There are additional criteria to rank skaters within the groups. USFS transparently applied them as written across all disciplines.

We can argue all day about the righteousness of the criteria. But USFS applied them as written.

 

[moonvine]

I asked you, Because you said ignoring the criteria would be favouritism, How would you
have felt if the USFS went With Malinin, Would that be an invalid decision in your opinion?
Because of the criteria comparing Junior to Senior events?

Any decision they make is “valid.” They are the only body authorized to make the decision.

It would have been an unfair decision.

 

[Mista Ekko]

A lot of people complained about Rippon over Miner because Rippon ended up 4th, but Rippon really did much better than Miner internationally (whose only good competition was 2018 Nationals, and only GP medal that quadrennial was 2015 Rostelecom and every other GP was 6th or worse).

I didn't have an issue with Rippon over Miner,
I don't think I said that at all

Only that it feels like the USFS are switching to whichever criteria they want for whenever it fits what they want at the moment,
But another poster mentioned that this is the first time they advertised specific criteria so I guess that would have to suffice
as an explanation

 

[TontoK]

I only know the answer to specific parts.

Anyone can (for the most part) enter Cranberry. SCOB reserves the right to decide if a skater would be a better fit for the Cup instead of the International. I’m not sure if they used that at all or not. I think they would use it if there were “too many” entries. They keep a really strict time schedule.

As far as I know, USFS decides the rosters for Challengers and Senior Bs. If a skater is one of the top skaters in that discipline (for instance Alexa and Brandon) they can ask USFS to send them to specific competitions and USFS is likely to accommodate that request. Other than that I don’t know.

Skaters pay for their coaches to travel and stay.

Thanks. I don't have a good handle on the finances, but man, it sounds more expensive than I'd even imagined.

Think about Yaro, a competitive US Man who (I think) will not receive any financial help next year from USFS. How much is in the "envelope" anyway?

Skaters from modest means must have a terrible time. Not everyone can be as lucky as Todd Eldridge, who had his entire town backing him through his career.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Any decision they make is “valid.” They are the only body authorized to make the decision.

It would have been an unfair decision.

What if Malinin had won US nationals? He still would have just as little body of work,
It's not like these were 2 traditional last 2 years as far as accumulating world Rankings,
if he won would it still be unfair to send him over say Camden Pulkinen who has stronger criteria than him?
(I don't actually know if that's true but it might be)

 

[Mista Ekko]

By the way, Can I ask when was the criteria advertised?

 

[yume]

Honestly i didn't think that this drama would survive that long. People are arguing like USFSA just published the decision. I love it
Can we have that kind of unexpected result and/or controversial decision after every competition? I don't think i ever cared about US men that much

 

[treblemakerem]

Aren't skaters trying to peak at Nationals and have their scores trend upwards? I mean, it's supposed to be among the most important events to consider for selection.

Yes and if the US men were weaker that would be enough. He needed to show that he could consistently land quads. Instead he chose to play it safe and those programs weren’t even clean. He’s extremely talented but unproven.

 

[TontoK]

Honestly i didn't think that this drama would survive that long. People are arguing like USFSA just published the decision. I love it
Can we have that kind of unexpected result and/or controversial decision after every competition? I don't think i ever cared about US men that much

The men were really the highlight of the whole competition.

Other than a very few programs in other disciplines, the event was boring and fairly predictable.

 

[moonvine]

Thanks. I don't have a good handle on the finances, but man, it sounds more expensive than I'd even imagined.

Think about Yaro, a competitive US Man who (I think) will not receive any financial help next year from USFS. How much is in the "envelope" anyway?

Skaters from modest means must have a terrible time. Not everyone can be as lucky as Todd Eldridge, who had his entire town backing him through his career.

It’s crazy expensive. Possibly more so than Equestrian, because when you get to comparable level of Equestrian you’re most of the time riding someone else’s horse.

There’s coaching, practice ice, choreography, costumes, travel to competitions (yourself and your coach), boots/blades, sharpening… many tens of thousands of dollars.

I’m not sure exact dollar amounts of money in the envelope. But not that much.

Where it really gets bad, I would think, is where you’re hovering around top 10-12 in US. Then you’re probably not even getting envelope money.

If you look at Adam Rippon, his family did all kinds of things to keep him skating. Mom drove the Zamboni. Raf deferred his coaching fees. Adam survived for periods of time eating only green apples from his gym (and he’s allergic to apples IIRC).

It’s why you’ll see skaters coaching and doing whatever they can as side hustles.

It’s also why you’ll see me madly cheering and throwing stuffies to the first group. Because they’ve spent unreasonable amounts of money and effort to get there.

 

[moonvine]

By the way, Can I ask when was the criteria advertised?

What if Malinin had won US nationals? He still would have just as little body of work,
It's not like these were 2 traditional last 2 years as far as accumulating world Rankings,
if he won would it still be unfair to send him over say Camden Pulkinen who has stronger criteria than him?
(I don't actually know if that's true but it might be)

If he had won Nationals, he would still be Priority Group 3. Camden was not in a priority group.

Criteria were published September 9, 2021 I believe.