US Olympic Team Announced

[el henry]

Okay. I also apologize for the misunderstanding and the melodramatic rant. It seems as if I got too emotional.

No apology needed. I violated one of my own personal rules in making "general" allusions, because I know what it is like when someone says "well Jason fans think this" or "Jason fans think that", and I wonder, are you talking about me? Should I answer?

You can think Ilia should be selected and I can think Jason should be selected and we are all skating fans. That's the important part.

 

[karne]

At the end of the day, as in 2018, all of the men and their teams were well aware of the criteria, and made choices accordingly.

In 2018 Ross Miner and his team were well aware in advance of Nationals that he could not just pull two good skates out of his behind and expect to go. In fact, anyone who had been paying attention for more than five seconds knew this. USFS, while not publishing criteria as precisely as on this occasion, had made it clear, publicly and privately, that body of work was the major consideration. This was why only five men were being talked about in the run-up to 2018 Nationals. Miner and his team knew this.

And when USFS published the criteria in August 2020, Malinin and his team - just like every other US skater - were also faced with choices. There were a lot of choices they could make. One of those choices would have been to turn Ilia Senior for the 2021-22 season, push for the Skate America host pick, and push for him to get multiple Senior Bs and Challenger events. Through those events Ilia could have built up a solid Senior body of work, a collection of Senior scores, and a median score to challenge.

But they didn't. Instead, Ilia was kept Junior, with the full acknowledgement of the team of the disadvantage that would leave him at. His team could still have saved this; they could have pursued multiple Senior B/Challenger events, even after the JGP, and allowed Ilia to build a median score that would challenge Jason's. They did not.

And Ilia's median score is lower than Jason's by a margin that cannot be solely explained by the lack of ChSq that Junior men have. Nor even the lack of quads in the SP.

I think what happened was that Ilia made a very unexpected rapid improvement and that the Olympics were never in their original plan.

 

[mrrice]

Even japanese federation try new skater by including Mana Kawabe in the olympic team over the sentimental one Mai Mihara.

Why USFS did not send the skater Ilia Who skating with such joy and have better smooth landing on his 6 quad than Zhou and Chen.

Jason is a sentimental choice and a poor choice compare to this amazing young men Ilia.

I'm going to guess that since Illia has only skated in one Senior event and that event is their home Nationals, I would be worried that his international Senior Debut would be at the Olympics. It makes perfect sense to me. Illia is young and his time will be here before you know it.

 

[soccerjc77]

I'm going to guess that since Illia has only skated in one Senior event and that event is their home Nationals, I would be worried that his international Senior Debut would be at the Olympics. It makes perfect sense to me. Illia is young and his time will be here before you know it.

They didn't have any difficult to send Polina Edmunds with a good 9th place at her first Senior debut at the Olympic.

Ilia would have do better than a 9th place compare to Polina.

So if USFS was able to send Polina, why not Ilia ?

 

[mrrice]

They didn't have any difficult to send Polina Edmunds with a good 9th place at her first Senior debut at the Olympic.

Ilia would have do better than a 9th place compare to Polina.

So if USFS was able to send Polina, why not Ilia ?

Well, the situations don't really compare. NONE of the US Ladies had ever won a Medal at worlds at that time. In fact, Mirai ( Who they left off the team ) was the only skater in the field who had been to the Olympics in 2010. Nathan and Jason are BOTH Olympians and Vincent is a World Bronze Medalist. I just can't see leaving any of them at home for an untested Illa who basically has no senior experience. Ilia will have the next quad to himself as I can't see any of the Men on the continuing for another quad.

 

[readernick]

Even japanese federation try new skater by including Mana Kawabe in the olympic team over the sentimental one Mai Mihara.

Why USFS did not send the skater Ilia Who skating with such joy and have better smooth landing on his 6 quad than Zhou and Chen.

Jason is a sentimental choice and a poor choice compare to this amazing young men Ilia.

JSF likes to go by National results. If you are a former Olympic or World medalist, they may choose you over other skaters. But, in general, it doesn't happen. Plus, Mana actually got a GP medal this year. Mai doesn't have significantly stronger BOW than Mana over the last few years.

People were more surprised by the ice dance choice in Japan. But, again, Japan goes by Nats. ( And again M/ T didn't really have that strong of BOW argument) Since 2014, the USFS consistently doesn't just go by Nats. Jason has a very strong BOW argument to be put on the team and he skated well at Nats. The USFS apparently texted him very quickly after the LP was over to inform him of their decision so by their reading and mine he was the skater that best met the criteria set out long before this season started.

Mirai had had two bad seasons prior to 2014 Nats. You are right in assuming Ashley was definitely going to be on the team. So, in that case it was no BOW( Polina) vs bad BOW( Mirai). They went with none. Jason made the GP final this year. He is not at all similar to Mirai in results. Sentiment had nothing to do with it. Criteria did.

Obviously, they believe in Ilya's potential because they are going to help him get his TES minimums for Worlds. Neither Jason nor Ilya are likely to medal nor make top 5 at the Olympics. So, the point of sending Ilya over Jason is experience. But, he is getting experience at Worlds. Why does he specifically need to go to the Olympics for senior experience? I don't think the Olympics is the best place to test out your feet internationally as a new senior. ( Neither is Worlds but some risk has to be taken to develop talent)

Lots of people hate on the US for not winning enough, but I actually think the USFS does quite well in results given the talent they have. Very few kids in America skate. A lot of counties have so much more talent at a junior level than the US which doesn't always translate to results at a Senior level. Japan, for instance, has so many amazing women's and men's skaters but their actually results don't match how great their skaters are. The USFS is far from perfect but they doing pretty well with the talent they have.

 

[mrrice]

Anyone with half a brain only needed to see the scores and read about the amazing Malinin and his beautiful quads to know the proper decision. Years of seeing mediocrity, stagnation and tired old tricks is enough or was there something I miss not seeing this nonsense. I was certain they were going to prop Brown but I never thought the US Fed were so shameless they would give him 10's for novice level programs with glaring omissions and errors. Tell me when did the perennial sideshow wriggle himself to a position where he gets 10's for giggles.

Well, that's why they have that saying "Home Cooking" Basically a Fed will do "Almost" anything to make sure the team they want to go, is the team they select. Mirai and Ross, had both Medaled at Senior Nationals and were still left off the team. Ashley Wagner had a World Silver and they didn't put her on the team for 2018. You just never know how things are going to go.

 

[soccerjc77]

Well, that's why they have that saying "Home Cooking" Basically a Fed will do "Almost" anything to make sure the team they want to go, is the team they select. Mirai and Ross, had both Medaled at Senior Nationals and were still left off the team. Ashley Wagner had a World Silver and they didn't put her on the team for 2018. You just never know how things are going to go.

USFS just have to go by national result and that's it ! Like Russia, Japanese and Canadian federation, they all choose their skater by national result. But USFS like drama.

 

[readernick]

USFS just have to go by national result and that's it ! Like Russia, Japanese and Canadian federation, they all choose their skater by national result. But USFS like drama.

Russia and Canadian did not go with Nationals results this year. They selected skaters who were not top 3 for the team. Japan, yes. Only Japan consistently does this.

 

[skylark]

Well, the situations don't really compare. NONE of the US Ladies had ever won a Medal at worlds at that time. In fact, Mirai ( Who they left off the team ) was the only skater in the field who had been to the Olympics in 2010. Nathan and Jason are BOTH Olympians and Vincent is a World Bronze Medalist.

Oh! And there's that little thing that Nathan is also a 3-time and reigning World Champion Vincent is also an Olympian -- 6th place. Pretty good

 

[mrrice]

USFS just have to go by national result and that's it ! Like Russia, Japanese and Canadian federation, they all choose their skater by national result. But USFS like drama.

I agree and that's the argument that Ross and his Coaches made as well. They said....."If you knew there was no way that Ross. No matter how he skated, was going to make the team, why didn't you tell us before we got here!!! We never would have come if we knew that beforehand.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

At the end of the day, as in 2018, all of the men and their teams were well aware of the criteria, and made choices accordingly.

In 2018 Ross Miner and his team were well aware in advance of Nationals that he could not just pull two good skates out of his behind and expect to go. In fact, anyone who had been paying attention for more than five seconds knew this. USFS, while not publishing criteria as precisely as on this occasion, had made it clear, publicly and privately, that body of work was the major consideration. This was why only five men were being talked about in the run-up to 2018 Nationals. Miner and his team knew this.

And when USFS published the criteria in August 2020, Malinin and his team - just like every other US skater - were also faced with choices. There were a lot of choices they could make. One of those choices would have been to turn Ilia Senior for the 2021-22 season, push for the Skate America host pick, and push for him to get multiple Senior Bs and Challenger events. Through those events Ilia could have built up a solid Senior body of work, a collection of Senior scores, and a median score to challenge.

But they didn't. Instead, Ilia was kept Junior, with the full acknowledgement of the team of the disadvantage that would leave him at. His team could still have saved this; they could have pursued multiple Senior B/Challenger events, even after the JGP, and allowed Ilia to build a median score that would challenge Jason's. They did not.

And Ilia's median score is lower than Jason's by a margin that cannot be solely explained by the lack of ChSq that Junior men have. Nor even the lack of quads in the SP.

I think what happened was that Ilia made a very unexpected rapid improvement and that the Olympics were never in their original plan.

It's not only about Ilya didn't do; it's also about what Jason didn't do. Jason finished in 4th and displayed technical content that is not competitive for medals at big events internationally. His PCS is, but his TES isn't. The Nationals result and score are to be considered, it's part of the "body of work" and certainly more important than any Senior B event Ilya could have skated in. I don't think Jason has ever skated two programs that could beat what Ilya did at Nationals, and it's not as if Ilya could only theoretically produce this form in competition.

 

[karne]

I agree and that's the argument that Ross and his Coaches made as well. They said....."If you knew there was no way that Ross. No matter how he skated, was going to make the team, why didn't you tell us before we got here!!! We never would have come if we knew that beforehand.

mrrice, Ross did know. Ross and his team both knew about the body of work criteria in 2018. They knew it was not acceptable to skate poorly the entire quad - as Ross did - and suddenly pull two good skates out of your backside at Nationals and be expected to go. USFS published information about body of work before the 17-18 season. Everyone was talking about it. If Ross and his team didn't know, it was because they were being wilfully ignorant.

Jason finished in 4th and displayed technical content that is not competitive for medals at big events internationally.

Mmm.

So, uh, if his technical content isn't competitive for medals internationally...how does Jason have a small Worlds medal, two 4CC medals, and multiple GP medals? Oh yeah, it's almost like technical content is only part of a score. And GOE is a thing. Probably less so at Nationals where everyone - including Ilia - was getting stupid GOEs for everything.

I also get the decided impression that quite a few of you in this thread are among those who think Steve Bradbury should have given his gold medal back and agreed to a reskate, too.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

So, uh, if his technical content isn't competitive for medals internationally...how does Jason have a small Worlds medal, two 4CC medals, and multiple GP medals? Oh yeah, it's almost like technical content is only part of a score. And GOE is a thing. Probably less so at Nationals where everyone - including Ilia - was getting stupid GOEs for everything.

I love it, you consider a small medal is a "big international medal." You must think Mirai is a World champion then for winning a small gold in 2010. Both 4CC's that Jason won medals at, we did not send our "A" team. No Nathan, no Vincent.

I don't know when some of you are being serious with these arguments. Some claim Jason is undermarked when he's getting 10's for a program with a fall, you're seeming to suggest Jason is an Olympic medal contender because he made the podium twice at 4CC with weak fields (yes, I know Yuzuru skated at one of them but Jason lost to him by 25 points in 2020 and Boyang Jin by 30 in 2018).

 

[mrrice]

mrrice, Ross did know. Ross and his team both knew about the body of work criteria in 2018. They knew it was not acceptable to skate poorly the entire quad - as Ross did - and suddenly pull two good skates out of your backside at Nationals and be expected to go. USFS published information about body of work before the 17-18 season. Everyone was talking about it. If Ross and his team didn't know, it was because they were being wilfully ignorant.

Mmm.

So, uh, if his technical content isn't competitive for medals internationally...how does Jason have a small Worlds medal, two 4CC medals, and multiple GP medals? Oh yeah, it's almost like technical content is only part of a score. And GOE is a thing. Probably less so at Nationals where everyone - including Ilia - was getting stupid GOEs for everything.

I also get the decided impression that quite a few of you in this thread are among those who think Steve Bradbury should have given his gold medal back and agreed to a reskate, too.

I just can't agree with you here. Ross had 3, count em, 3 podium finishes before he went to Nationals in 2018. To me, that, added to a Silver Medal Finish, should have been enough to get him on the team. Look, I am no fan of Ross but, I think he was treated unfairly by the US Fed.

 

[el henry]

I don't know when some of you are being serious with these arguments. Some claim Jason is undermarked when he's getting 10's for a program with a fall, you're seeming to suggest Jason is an Olympic medal contender because he made the podium twice at 4CC with weak fields (yes, I know Yuzuru skated at one of them but Jason lost to him by 25 points in 2020 and Boyang Jin by 30 in 2018).

I believe you are misquoting me, and I will set the record straight, as "some" made no such claim. I understand you are passionate about the Ilia selection, but you can make the case without mischaracterizing what I said.

I made the statement that Jason is not propped up the USFS. You said he is propped up, overscored by 20 points domestically as opposed to internationally to support that he was propped up. I said show me the programs where he was overscored by 20 points internationally as opposed to domestically. (ETA: meaning the same program, skated domestically similarly to how it was skated internationally, and scored with a differential of 20 points)

Rather than show me such programs (I suspect because they do not exist, but I am willing to review any), you answered that Jason had received 10s for a program with a fall, presumably the SL program at Nats.

I said that is home cooking, which is a far cry from scoring programs differently domestically and internationally. I admitted US Nats serves up the home cooking. They serve it up for Nathan, for Ilia, for Vincent and for Jason.

Now, maybe "some" does not refer to me, in which case I apologize. But if does, could you do me the courtesy of quoting me correctly? That is all I ask. Thank you.

 

[moonvine]

This is my fear.

And God forbid, if something goes wrong in, say Montreal, with so many high level skaters co-located... well, you and I may have to skate in the Olympics, as we'll be about all that's left. I hope your Blues pattern is up to snuff.

They’ve been so careful there. Read/heard somewhere they asked USFS if they had to come..Jackie? I don’t remember.

 

[moonvine]

Even japanese federation try new skater by including Mana Kawabe in the olympic team over the sentimental one Mai Mihara.

Why USFS did not send the skater Ilia Who skating with such joy and have better smooth landing on his 6 quad than Zhou and Chen.

Jason is a sentimental choice and a poor choice compare to this amazing young men Ilia.

The previous 34 pages give many reasons.

 

[moonvine]

I'm going to guess that since Illia has only skated in one Senior event and that event is their home Nationals, I would be worried that his international Senior Debut would be at the Olympics. It makes perfect sense to me. Illia is young and his time will be here before you know it.

He skated at CS Cup of Austria. That was his International Senior Debut.

A skater can’t make their International Senior Debut at the Olympics. There are tech minimums that have to be made.

 

[karne]

I just can't agree with you here. Ross had 3, count em, 3 podium finishes before he went to Nationals in 2018. To me, that, added to a Silver Medal Finish, should have been enough to get him on the team. Look, I am no fan of Ross but, I think he was treated unfairly by the US Fed.

I don't know where you're getting your stats from, but let's see: 14-15 season: GP 7th, a gold and silver at two CS events, 6th US Nats; 15-16 season: GP bronze and 7th, bronze CS event, 5th US Nats, 14th 4CC; 16-17 season: GP 9th and 12th, CS event 6th, 5th US Nats; 17-18 season: GP 6th, 6th and 5th CS events, 2nd US Nats.

That's one GP medal (two and a half years before the Oly team was named), NO Nationals medals, three CS medals (again, early in the quad, more than two years before the Oly team was named). In the two seasons leading up to the Olympics, his form takes an obvious nosedive. When the other contenders had GP medals or higher GP finishes...yeah, he never stood a chance, and rightly so.