US Olympic Team Announced

[moonvine]

I just can't agree with you here. Ross had 3, count em, 3 podium finishes before he went to Nationals in 2018. To me, that, added to a Silver Medal Finish, should have been enough to get him on the team. Look, I am no fan of Ross but, I think he was treated unfairly by the US Fed.

I disagree.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I made the statement that Jason is not propped up the USFS. You said he is propped up, overscored by 20 points domestically as opposed to internationally to support that he was propped up. I said show me the programs where he was overscored by 20 points internationally as opposed to domestically. (ETA: meaning the same program, skated domestically similarly to how it was skated internationally, and scored with a differential of 20 points)

Your exact quote was "Jason has never been a favorite of USFS," so then who is a favorite? Who is getting the preferential treatment that Jason is not? Is Jason under-marked or getting passed over for competitive assignments?

I have no interest in going back and watching Jason's programs. If you think he is not overscored domestically, and that his scores at this Nationals do not reflect "propping up," we can agree to disagree.

 

[mrrice]

I disagree.

That's ok.

 

[mrrice]

I don't know where you're getting your stats from, but let's see: 14-15 season: GP 7th, a gold and silver at two CS events, 6th US Nats; 15-16 season: GP bronze and 7th, bronze CS event, 5th US Nats, 14th 4CC; 16-17 season: GP 9th and 12th, CS event 6th, 5th US Nats; 17-18 season: GP 6th, 6th and 5th CS events, 2nd US Nats.

That's one GP medal (two and a half years before the Oly team was named), NO Nationals medals, three CS medals (again, early in the quad, more than two years before the Oly team was named). In the two seasons leading up to the Olympics, his form takes an obvious nosedive. When the other contenders had GP medals or higher GP finishes...yeah, he never stood a chance, and rightly so.

2011, 2012, and 2013. Bronze, Bronze, and Silver. For me, that's a BOW that would work for me if I were on the committee.

 

[karne]

2011, 2012, and 2013. Bronze, Bronze, and Silver

That was literally the previous quad! By the time 2018 came around that was five years before the team was named! That's ludicrous. That's absolutely insane. Any coach who thought a Nationals medal won five years previously should count for Olympic selection would be laughed out of the room - and so they darned well should be!

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The previous 34 pages give many reasons.

The USFSA should be grateful for having such passionate fans

 

[mrrice]

That was literally the previous quad! By the time 2018 came around that was five years before the team was named! That's ludicrous. That's absolutely insane. Any coach who thought a Nationals medal won five years previously should count for Olympic selection would be laughed out of the room - and so they darned well should be!

Ludicrous.....Wow. I don't think Ross and his team thought that or they wouldn't have spent all that time and money trying to make the Olympic Team.

 

[moonvine]

Ludicrous.....Wow. I don't think Ross and his team thought that or they wouldn't have spent all that time and money trying to make the Olympic Team.

I literally can’t imagine they at any time thought he had a chance of making the Olympic team. They know what is required. There are other reasons to skate. Fortunately, or we would only have 5 or 6 people at Nationals.

 

[moonvine]

I don't know where you're getting your stats from, but let's see: 14-15 season: GP 7th, a gold and silver at two CS events, 6th US Nats; 15-16 season: GP bronze and 7th, bronze CS event, 5th US Nats, 14th 4CC; 16-17 season: GP 9th and 12th, CS event 6th, 5th US Nats; 17-18 season: GP 6th, 6th and 5th CS events, 2nd US Nats.

That's one GP medal (two and a half years before the Oly team was named), NO Nationals medals, three CS medals (again, early in the quad, more than two years before the Oly team was named). In the two seasons leading up to the Olympics, his form takes an obvious nosedive. When the other contenders had GP medals or higher GP finishes...yeah, he never stood a chance, and rightly so.

Exactly this. Mostly what they will look at is performances within the past year.

 

[flipsydoodle]

Also, jumping off and not directed at you, I do get frustrated when I see terms directed to Jason like, perennial loser, waste of space, never competitive, washed up, held up by USFS (that in particular, is just, wow, Jason has never been a favorite of USFS) in addition to the discussion of the criteria.

Snipped for focus

I haven’t seen Jason described like that anywhere on GS.

 

[moonvine]

Snipped for focus

I haven’t seen Jason described like that anywhere on GS.

I have. In this very thread.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Snipped for focus

I haven’t seen Jason described like that anywhere on GS.

Well unfortunately I have... At least recently.

The problem here is posters exaggerate, like it's not enough to say <insert skater here> had a bad FS or one preferred another skater. They have to post that <insert skater here> the literal worst skater in history and they should be embarrassed to show their face on the rink.

There's no nuance, you either hate a skater or love them, no in between.

 

[ice coverage]

No, it makes the case clearer for those of us who watched the Cup of Austria in real time why Jason should be chosen for the Olympic team.

Jason decisively scores ahead of Sota Yamamoto. Sota Yamamoto finishes ahead of Lucas T. Honda. Whom Ilia Malinin can't outscore.

If the Nats drum can be beaten, so can the Cup of Austria drum.

And yes I lied about leaving, but I thought the trajectory might be of interest to some folks. Now I log off.

Per the USFS criteria, 2022 Nats was one of the three most important events to be considered.
The other two were 2021 Worlds and 2021 GPF.

Although Cup of Austria is part of Ilia's BOW, it does not rise to the level of importance of 2022 Nats, per the USFS criteria.

If the USFS committee followed the criteria, it would/should have given the 2022 Nats drum far more attention than the Cup of Austria drum.

(Fans in this thread are free to beat whatever drum they want, but I for one like to keep the criteria in mind.)

 

[Tavi...]

It's not only about Ilya didn't do; it's also about what Jason didn't do. Jason finished in 4th and displayed technical content that is not competitive for medals at big events internationally. His PCS is, but his TES isn't. The Nationals result and score are to be considered, it's part of the "body of work" and certainly more important than any Senior B event Ilya could have skated in. I don't think Jason has ever skated two programs that could beat what Ilya did at Nationals, and it's not as if Ilya could only theoretically produce this form in competition.

You know, repeating your point of view ad infinitum isn’t going to change the results and cherry picking facts to support that point of view doesn’t make your argument any stronger. Every athlete competes against the existing field, not a hypothetical one. Jason beat out a lot of guys with a lot of quads to take that silver at 4CCs, just as he regularly medals on the GP by doing the same thing. Everyone always says well Jason just got lucky bc Kolyada or whoever had a bad day. But so what? I have never heard anyone say that Vincent got lucky to win that bronze at Worlds because Shoma or whoever underperformed - despite his abysmal showings at 2018 and 2021 Worlds - or that he took bronze at 4CCs against a weak field without Hanyu or Nathan so it doesn’t mean much. It is what it is.

Regarding Nats, as you should know, results are part of the criteria, but not the entire criteria, and that # of quads isn’t the only determinant of competitiveness - Dmitriev attempted a 4A and placed 11th out of 13 skaters. What you think Ilia might be able to do or what in your opinion Jason could never do is irrelevant. As to your criticisms of Jason’s performance at Nats, ask yourself how well you - or more importantly, the guys he was competing against - would have done skating a SP after traveling 33 hours from Toronto to get there, or skating a FS when their coach had to withdraw last minute. Nathan has shown he can do the latter. No one else has proved they can do what Jason did. I’m sorry you’re disappointed but that’s life.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

You know, repeating your point of view ad infinitum isn’t going to change the results and cherry picking facts to support that point of view doesn’t make your argument any stronger. Every athlete competes against the existing field, not a hypothetical one. Jason beat out a lot of guys with a lot of quads to take that silver at 4CCs, just as he regularly medals on the GP by doing the same thing. Everyone always says well Jason just got lucky bc Kolyada or whoever had a bad day. But so what? I have never heard anyone say that Vincent got lucky to win that bronze at Worlds because Shoma or whoever underperformed - despite his abysmal showings at 2018 and 2021 Worlds - or that he took bronze at 4CCs against a weak field without Hanyu or Nathan so it doesn’t mean much. It is what it is.

Regarding Nats, as you should know, results are part of the criteria, but not the entire criteria, and that # of quads isn’t the only determinant of competitiveness - Dmitriev attempted a 4A and placed 11th out of 13 skaters. What you think Ilia might be able to do or what in your opinion Jason could never do is irrelevant. As to your criticisms of Jason’s performance at Nats, ask yourself how well you - or more importantly, the guys he was competing against - would have done skating a SP after traveling 33 hours from Toronto to get there, or skating a FS when their coach had to withdraw last minute. Nathan has shown he can do the latter. No one else has proved they can do what Jason did. I’m sorry you’re disappointed but that’s life.

I never said Jason could not have been picked under the criteria. I have always said Jason or Ilya could have been selected, as Jason has superior average international scores while Ilya was much better at Nationals, and that I would have gone with Ilya due to the tie breaker considerations like acceleration in scores and the year-over-year improvement in the Nationals placement (essentially going from zero to 2nd, whereas Jason's placement dropped). My opinion is that, based on the tiebreaker, it is an obvious decision to go with Ilya (in addition to other good reasons that are not part of the selection criteria), because of the three tiebreakers, the first is a tie and the next two go to Ilya. While it is impressive that Jason skated well with all he had to get through to get to the competition, that is not part of the selection criteria. Also Dmitriev trying a 4A has nothing to do with the selection of Jason over Ilya; Ilya didn't just try quads, he executed them successfully. I'm also not considering what I think Ilya might be able to do or what Jason could never do; we're going on what they did at Nationals. The videos are online for all of us to watch. You Jason fans keep gaslighting, cherry-picking, and bringing up all these other considerations that have nothing to do with the actual selection process. There is no requirement that a skater has the Worlds minimum (although that's obviously not ideal), there is no guessing on whether Ilya can do multiple quads in competition, there is little doubt that Jason cannot do quads in competition, it doesn't matter what Nathan/Vincent/Dmitriov do when selecting from two athletes in group 3, and GP medals are not a factor (although high scores there can help).

 

[Tavi...]

I never said Jason could not have been picked under the criteria. I have always said Jason or Ilya could have been selected, as Jason has superior average international scores while Ilya was much better at Nationals, and that I would have gone with Ilya due to the tie breaker considerations like acceleration in scores and the year-over-year improvement in the Nationals placement (essentially going from zero to 2nd, whereas Jason's placement dropped). My opinion is that, based on the tiebreaker, it is an obvious decision to go with Ilya (in addition to other good reasons that are not part of the selection criteria), While it is impressive that Jason skated well with all he had to get through to get to the competition, that is not part of the selection criteria. Also Dmitriev trying a 4A has nothing to do with the selection of Jason over Ilya; Ilya didn't just try quads, he executed them successfully. I'm also not considering what I think Ilya might be able to do or what Jason could never do; we're going on what they did at Nationals. The videos are online for all of us to watch. You Jason fans keep gaslighting, cherry-picking, and bringing up all these other considerations that have nothing to do with the actual selection process. There is no requirement that a skater has the Worlds minimum (although that's obviously not ideal), there is no guessing on whether Ilya can do multiple quads in competition, there is little doubt that Jason cannot do quads in competition, and GP medals are not a factor (although high scores there can help).

You know, I don’t think there’s much point continuing to argue about this because we clearly don’t see eye to eye, not just on the outcome, but on what the selection criteria consider. I understand that if you had been on the selection committee you would have weighed things differently than they apparently did, and that you and others are disappointed and perhaps angry on Ilia’s behalf, but at this point the decision has been made, so….I’m not sure what else can be said.

Re the rest of your post, I don’t think I ever said there was a requirement for a Worlds minimum score; as I recall, I responded to your post mentioning it only because you criticized Jason for not being able to beat someone who didn’t have the minimum yet. I thought it was kind of ironic, because that is the one place this season aside from Nats where Ilia had the opportunity to show what he could do in senior international competition, and he underperformed.

Also, while I agree that the selection criteria don’t consider GP medals per se (rather scores and scoring trends), I was responding to your post essentially dismissing Jason’s medals, including his silver at 4CC, as support for your position that he’s not competitive.

Finally, the selection criteria do mention consistency in several contexts. My point in mentioning the fact that Jason skated well in spite of everything he had to deal with was that it’s one of the things that shows how consistent he is. I’m sorry if that was unclear.

 

[mrrice]

I literally can’t imagine they at any time thought he had a chance of making the Olympic team. They know what is required. There are other reasons to skate. Fortunately, or we would only have 5 or 6 people at Nationals.

You know what, I'm going to find some of the comments from Ross and his coaches. After he won the silver medal, I think it was very clear that they were hoping that Ross would be going to the Olympics.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Also, while I agree that the selection criteria don’t consider GP medals per se (rather scores and scoring trends), I was responding to your post essentially dismissing Jason’s medals, including his silver at 4CC, as support for your position that he’s not competitive.

I was responding to another poster, karne, who claimed that Jason is competitive for major international medals (World/Olympic) on the basis of 4CC medals and a small world medal. He is "competitive for medals" but he is not "competitive for World/Olympic medals". He has not won a GP event or a 4CC, which feature only a subset of top contenders for those big-event medals. Do you feel like he is competitive for an Olympic medal? Since you're probably inclined to avoid the question and drag Ilya, I'll address him. I think Ilya would be very unlikely to medal but at least has to the technical merit to compete (and has skated programs with multiple quads in competition). I also think Ilya would benefit greatly from the Olympic experience to be a future leader for the US men, but that's my personal opinion and obviously not part of the selection process. Nonetheless, he should be on the team based on the selection criteria alone.

 

[mrrice]

I literally can’t imagine they at any time thought he had a chance of making the Olympic team. They know what is required. There are other reasons to skate. Fortunately, or we would only have 5 or 6 people at Nationals.

Here is just one of the articles I found about this situation. It is very CLEAR to me that Rosses team had hoped that Ross would be heading to the Olympics after winning the Silver Medal at Nationals. https://www.forbes.com/sites/carols...e-skatings-selection-process/?sh=3d4dcb3a5d6f

 

[moonvine]

Here is just one of the articles I found about this situation. It is very CLEAR to me that Rosses team had hoped that Ross would be heading to the Olympics after winning the Silver Medal at Nationals. https://www.forbes.com/sites/carols...e-skatings-selection-process/?sh=3d4dcb3a5d6f

Well, I’m not sure what to say. Although they didn’t lay out the criteria as clearly as they did here, they make it pretty obvious that BOW (over the past year only, not going back 4-5 years) would be a determining factor.

So I’m sorry he was disappointed. Truly.