US Olympic Team Announced

[moonvine]

They wouldn't have to fall apart, It's not beyond likelihood that 2 or 3 guys might make a couple mistakes
in the FS and only score like 180 something, It's hard enough for most of them to reach the 200 mark right now anyways,
Apart from Hanyu and Chen

Yes he beat Vincent because Vincent fell apart. If Vincent falls apart to that extent in the Olympics a bunch of athletes will beat him.


It doesn’t matter anymore. The team has been named and it is what it is. We don’t even know who will be there. I was just reading today that a person can test positive for 2 months after recovery. That could leave many athletes out.

 

[ice coverage]

... All though, as I have mentioned before in this thread I find it odd that Gabbie is listed as 3rd alternate for Olympics and got a spot for 4CC as well, neither did Lindsay or Amber. I get that they think it´s unlikely that Gabbie will need to go to Beijing because she is 3rd alternate, but I think it´s risky and since they left Lindsay and Amber out of 4CC they could have done the same with Gabbie and nobody would think about it and Harrell could have gotten a spot for 4CC along with Starr and Shin and everybody would be happy. Since Hanna is the first alternate though she might go to 4CC if somethings happen.

I hate this type of blatant disregard for the feelings of athletes.

"Nobody" would think about it if Gabbie had not been given Four Continents???
I expect that Gabbie would think about it.
Plus her coaches and everyone on her team who had been supporting her this season.

"Everybody" would be happy if the Four Continents team had included Hanna instead of Gabbie???
Again, I hate such disregard for Gabbie and her support team.

(Lest anyone wonder: I have nothing against Hanna.)

---

Sonia Baram is too young for Worlds / Olympics: she may be 13, but missed the July 1 cutoff. She skated singles and pairs at the Novice Champion Series and was top 3 in singles, so she skated at both singles and pairs at Junior Nationals. Daniel has one more year of junior eligibility, so look for them in the JGP next season.

Of perhaps greater relevance, Sonia Baram is too young to be eligible for Junior Worlds.

Baram/Tioumentsev competed in Junior Pairs in Championship Series.
They won Junior Pairs both in Henderson and in Norwood.

(Novice Pairs competitors in Championship Series had no way of qualifying for Nationals.
Unlike Novice singles competitors.)

---

... 4. Broadcasting and marketing. NBC loves a good story and a friendly face. Look at Adam Rippon, who was the funny and charismatic one in 2018. He helped create a nice story. Let's be real, Nathan and Vincent aren't the most naturally charismatic guys (nothing wrong with that, they just seem more introverted and well-thought as opposed to bubbly and outgoing). Jason can give a good interview, tell a nice story, and be the warm and outgoing face of mens' figure skating. Ilia can't fulfill that role. Plus, he's young and most people have never heard of him. If you watch skating at any point, though, you've probably heard of Jason Brown. Also, NBC has been marketing him like crazy.

Jason Brown and Mariah Bell can draw mainstream US audience to watch Olympics. We know that. NBC certainly knows that. Both Jason and Mariah scores are very inflated at Nats and I'm not surprised. Ilia Malinin is relatively unknown to the casual figure skating fans. I'm sure politics and sponsors always play some roles in US Olympics team selection. If Jason Brown and Mariah Bell perform well in Olympics, they can get on other TV Shows such as Dancing with the stars. $$$ talks. ...

The USFS selection criteria include absolutely nothing about broadcasting/marketing and absolutely nothing about Dancing With The Stars.
Thank goodness that they do not.

I always have liked Jason more than Adam ... but I think it is highly unpredictable whether lightning will strike twice and whether Jason will attract as much attention at 2022 OWG as Adam did at 2018 OWG.
Going into 2014 OWG team event, Jason had a great storyline -- 2014 Nats Riverdance FS that had gone viral! -- as well as an engaging personality, but he did not "catch fire" as Adam did four years later.
Mirai became something of an icon for her triple axel in the 2018 team event. Again, I think it is highly unpredictable whether Jason will receive recognition to the same extent in 2022.

(IMO, the catalyst for Adam had been positive attention for his bold comments about someone who was holding elective office.
I am trying not to violate GS guidelines, but Adam had my support in this matter.)

ETA:

I think Nathan has a ton of natural charisma. I don't think "bubbly" is a prerequisite for having charisma -- I would not call Adam "bubbly."
Nathan, Adam, Jason all are very different people, each with his own charisma.
(For me, the public sphere perhaps seems a tad less of a comfort zone for Vincent. Nothing wrong with that. Again, nothing to do with the criteria.)​

 

[norwegianfairytale]

I hate this type of blatant disregard for the feelings of athletes.

"Nobody" would think about it if Gabbie had not been given Four Continents???
I expect that Gabbie would think about it.
Plus her coaches and everyone on her team who had been supporting her this season.

"Everybody" would be happy if the Four Continents team had included Hanna instead of Gabbie???
Again, I hate such disregard for Gabbie and her support team.

You are reading way too much into my comment. I think it´s unfair that you try to imply I don´t care about the skaters feeling. I did never imply that Hanna should be selected over Gabbie because she somehow deserved it more and that Gabbie hasn´t earned a spot at 4CC. My point was why send the 3rd alternate to 4CC when you need every alternate to be ready for Olympics. This is the season where you can not have too many back ups. This was purely a strategic thinking.

It has nothing to do with who deserved the spot or not. Lindsay and Amber would have deserved to go to 4CC as well, but USFS choose not to give them a spot. Everybody can understand that because they need to be ready to go to Beijing. I´m sure Lindsay and Amber understands that perfectly. All though they probably would want to go to 4CC as well. Lindsay will probably go to Beijing, so there is really no need to discuss her spot for 4CC. USFS has made their decision and think it´s safe enough to send the third alternate to 4CC.. I was just surprised that USFS choose to actually send alternates to 4CC at all this year. And it has nothing to do with having anything against Gabbie or not care about her feelings, IMO I think they are taking a big risk sending any of the alternates to 4CC in all disciplines. When I wrote my post, they hadn´t picked the alternatives for the other disciplines so I didn´t know they would do the same with other alternates. Now that they have, it would have been wrong and odd not to send Gabbie as they are sending second and third alternate from ice dance, pairs and mens to 4CC as well. So they are being completely consistent and fair. But it they wanted all alternates to be ready to go, all the alternates and the team would understand that perfectly as well.

 

[ice coverage]

You are reading way too much into my comment. I think it´s unfair that you try to imply I don´t care about the skaters feeling. ...

I read the words that you used in your original post.
And I reacted to the words that you chose to use.

 

[skatingiscool]

Ilya’s performance skills are not in the same zip code as any of the top men. And Internationally, rightly or wrongly, he won’t get the PCS of any of the top men.

Ice is slippery. Nathan bombed 4 years ago and there is no guarantee that Nathan won't bomb again. Nobody can predict the future. Based on Ilya's jumps at nationals, he SHOULD be on the team. Ilya is underdog and he can be a dark horse for Oly. podium. Both Vincent (World) and Nathan (Skate America) had disaster skates this season, PCS won't be able to save them if they cannot land the jumps in competitions.. I want Nathan to win Olympics gold very bad. However, anything can happen in Olympics. Lots of favorites just couldn't handle pressure and deliver in Olympics. Some skaters come to mind are Nathan, Gabrielle, Mao Asada, Michelle Kwan, and Patrick Chan. USFSA selection criteria has a BIG flaw in MEN this time. In the worse case scenario, team USA only get bronze medals in team event and ice dancing. No medals in Men, Women, and Pairs.

Once again, US fed is so far behind in figure skating sports. They still stuck in 80/90s 6.0 system. They still reward skaters with "artistry" rather than jumps. If I'm part of US fed, I will choose skaters with higher tech ceiling. llia should go instead of Jason. Lindsay should replace one of Mariah/Karen.

Jason, Mariah, and Karen have so low tech base scores, they have nearly ZERO chance in winning individual medal.

 

[moonvine]

Ice is slippery. Nathan bombed 4 years ago and there is no guarantee that Nathan won't bomb again. Nobody can predict the future. Based on Ilya's jumps at nationals, he SHOULD be on the team. Ilya is underdog and he can be a dark horse for Oly. podium. Both Vincent (World) and Nathan (Skate America) had disaster skates this season, PCS won't be able to save them if they cannot land the jumps in competitions.. I want Nathan to win Olympics gold very bad. However, anything can happen in Olympics. Lots of favorites just couldn't handle pressure and deliver in Olympics. Some skaters come to mind are Nathan, Gabrielle, Mao Asada, Michelle Kwan, and Patrick Chan. USFSA selection criteria has a BIG flaw in MEN this time. In the worse case scenario, team USA only get bronze medals in team event and ice dancing. No medals in Men, Women, and Pairs.

Once again, US fed is so far behind in figure skating sports. They still stuck in 80/90s 6.0 system. They still reward skaters with "artistry" rather than jumps. If I'm part of US fed, I will choose skaters with higher tech ceiling. llia should go instead of Jason. Lindsay should replace one of Mariah/Karen.

Jason, Mariah, and Karen have so low tech base scores, they have nearly ZERO chance in winning individual medal.

USFS was very consistent In picking all teams according to their established criteria. “Jumps at Nationals” was not part of the criteria.

I guess “worst case criteria” is no one wins any medals, even though we have #1 and #4 in the World US man and #3 and #4 dance teams.

USFS has contact information on their website if you want to consult with them on future criteria.

 

[skatingiscool]

USFS was very consistent In picking all teams according to their established criteria. “Jumps at Nationals” was not part of the criteria.

I guess “worst case criteria” is no one wins any medals, even though we have #1 and #4 in the World US man and #3 and #4 dance teams.

USFS has contact information on their website if you want to consult with them on future criteria.

I already did. I join many others and echo "Justice for llia" everywhere on social media. USFS even go very far by disabling comment section on social media. I'm sure they got the point this time.

 

[readernick]

USFS was very consistent In picking all teams according to their established criteria. “Jumps at Nationals” was not part of the criteria.

I guess “worst case criteria” is no one wins any medals, even though we have #1 and #4 in the World US man and #3 and #4 dance teams.

USFS has contact information on their website if you want to consult with them on future criteria.

Worst case scenario is possible in both disciplines and in the team event. Maybe, the US won't win medals. Russia lost the team event last time and everyone thought they would win. Things happen. But, I don't think sending Ilya dramatically increases or decreases that risk. Anyway, as you said, if someone doesn't like the team selection the correct solution is to lobby the USFS to change the criteria which were followed this year in every discipline with equality. I like Spain's system which takes into account performances through out the season without allowing human bias to interfere. Like, I'm pro Jason because I love his program and I'm always pro beautiful SS and knee bend over quads with weaker SS. Others, only value the technical. Having a pure points based system that doesn't just depend on Nationals takes out the human bias element while also reducing risks because it doesn't depend on just one competition. I wonder if the USFS will consider such a system.

 

[moonvine]

I already did. I join many others and echo "Justice for llia" everywhere on social media. USFS even go very far by disabling comment section on social media. I'm sure they got the point this time.

They could not win either way. It was bound to be an unpopular decision.

I’m personally happy that they applied their criteria equally across all disciplines. It would be very unfair if them to tell the athletes what criteria they were using and then not go by that criteria.

 

[moonvine]

Having a pure points based system that doesn't just depend on Nationals takes out the human bias element while also reducing risks because it doesn't depend on just one competition. I wonder if the USFS will consider such a system.

It sounds exactly like what they have.

 

[readernick]

It sounds exactly like what they have.

Not completely because it actually compares the points each skater/ team received throughout the season not just placements or scores against benchmarks. It doesn't create priority groups but rather the point totals determine selection.. It's impossible to say that a decision isn't fair with this system as the decision isn't made by a selection committee. However, I'm sure not everyone would be satisfied with this system either

 

[skatingiscool]

They could not win either way. It was bound to be an unpopular decision.

I’m personally happy that they applied their criteria equally across all disciplines. It would be very unfair if them to tell the athletes what criteria they were using and then not go by that criteria.

That's why I say the system is not perfect. A major flaw indeed. They should factor in junior who has potential to win a medal in Olympics. I agree that same criteria should be applied to all disciplines. If somehow, an age eligible junior lands a quad in WOMEN national, that junior should be selected for Olympics team.

 

[karne]

I already did. I join many others and echo "Justice for llia" everywhere on social media. USFS even go very far by disabling comment section on social media. I'm sure they got the point this time.

Justice for Ilia? But Ilia knew the selection criteria ahead of time. Why did his team not send him to multiple Senior Bs to post larger scores and bring his median score up? Why did he attempt a risky planned content at Austria which he could not handle, when he and his team knew it would be so important towards his Olympic selection?

Ilia's median score wasn't lower than Jason's by a significant margin just because he was skating Junior. It was significantly lower than Jason's because Ilia wasn't skating clean consistently. He might have brought out those great big jumps at Nationals - but that was the first time this season he landed them cleanly, rotated and consistent.

If anything, it should be Justice for Jason - Jason who is being so disrespected, Jason who despite not having your much-vaunted quad, has a larger median score given to him by international judges - at a larger gap than can be explained by the lack of ChSq or a quad missing in the SP. Ilia is a Junior still, and for all his promise, he still skates like one.

 

[moonvine]

That's why I say the system is not perfect. A major flaw indeed. They should factor in junior who has potential to win a medal in Olympics. I agree that same criteria should be applied to all disciplines. If somehow, an age eligible junior lands a quad in WOMEN national, that junior should be selected for Olympics team.

None of the criteria was “landing a quad” or “number of quads landed.”
Ilia skates like a Junior. There would have to be an enormous splatfest for him to win. And if there is an enormous. splatfest, Jason could medal.

Jason is ranked 6th in the world. Ilia is ranked 32nd.

 

[ice coverage]

... Jason is ranked 6th in the world. Ilia is ranked 32nd.

I believe you are talking about ISU World Standings -- which are not part of USFS selection criteria.
I think you already know that, but I don't want anyone else to misunderstand.

08 Karen Chen
13 Alysa Liu
21 Amber Glenn
24 Mariah Bell

07 Cain-Gribble/LeDuc
13 Calalang/Johnson
15 Knierim/Frazier

 

[Tavi...]

I already did. I join many others and echo "Justice for llia" everywhere on social media. USFS even go very far by disabling comment section on social media. I'm sure they got the point this time.

Justice for Ilia? Give me a break. His nonselection wasn’t a travesty of justice. By adopting that kind of language in this situation, you trivialize the victims of hate crimes and police brutality and undercut any rational argument you might have had on Ilia’s behalf.

Regarding your “ice is slippery” comment, guess what: it applies to every skater out there, and if anything doesn’t support your argument that Ilia deserves to be on the team. Rather, the fact that Nathan placed behind Boyang, Javi, and Shoma at the 2018 Olympics should remind you that having the hardest technical content doesn’t guarantee medals.

 

[Lzbee]

There are a fair few comments that Ilia could have medaled it even won the Olympics. It could happen but I think it's a tall ask to expect a skater to be completely squeaky clean at their first major senior international competition. Even Alina had made a mistake and she'd been skating as a senior all season. That said I do see the value in giving Ilia experience at the Olympics while Nathan and Vincent are still around to take the pressure off.

I'm of the seemingly controversial opinion that USFS has pretty much the best version of the criteria as they could have with international events counting more than domestic ones. It seems to have allowed for uncontroversial selections for the other 3 disciplines.

So my question is, what do people suggest could be an improvement to the criteria?

Edit: Typo

 

[lariko]

While I was upset that Ilia Malinin wasn’t selected for Olympics, I applaud to USFS for two things: making the decision and announcement quickly & immediately confirming Ilia Malinin for Worlds selection. Yes, their criteria is complicated, and it stopped the last minute success from showing up on the Olympic stage, but it is not as dreadful as the current RusFed’s decision making process.

 

[moonvine]

I believe you are talking about ISU World Standings -- which are not part of USFS selection criteria.
I think you already know that, but I don't want anyone else to misunderstand.

08 Karen Chen
13 Alysa Liu
21 Amber Glenn
24 Mariah Bell

07 Cain-Gribble/LeDuc
13 Calalang/Johnson
15 Knierim/Frazier

No, they are not included in the selection criteria. I didn’t mean to imply that they were. My apologies.

“Potential” scoring ability (Ilia having a higher scoring ceiling than Jason) or “number of quad jumps planned or completed” are also not part of the scoring criteria.

 

[flakyy]

I mean - Ilia was 2nd, not 3rd, and that by a wide margin. Jason had year after year after year to up his technical content at least a bit (1 reliable quad); he hasn't anything to show in that aspect - and there are some artistically great skaters around WITH technical content. He isn't needed for the team event either, so ... it would have been better, I think, to give Ilia the chance to test the waters at the greatest event of all - if he nails it, he is the sensation and scores will go up fast, if not - a great learning experience for him and no damage done.