US Team: 4CCs and Worlds (updated)

[Princessroja]

Great catch, that's why I'm on this board, so I can learn about these things. I've always believed that the Challenger Series was not truly representative of "the best" skaters at a specific level from around the world . I thought (minus points, content mins, etc.)
1. Worlds was the best sample of the best skaters in the world for that season (subjective to each federation)
2. 4ccs was still for the elite skaters but "the pool" opened a little wider to include more skaters, (subjective to each federation)
3. GP was each federation selecting skaters to potentially earn a spot at the Final, the most difficult to qualify,
4. The CS opened up to the largest pool of skaters (subjective to each federation)

Am I even close in terms of "importance" or talent levels, etc., or am I way off?

Quick side note, federations don't, except for host spots, choose which skaters participate in the GP series. That's determined by the previous season's best scores, although federations do have a hand in choosing which skaters out of that pool go to which event (especially host countries).

 

[ice coverage]

I also wondered if Castelli/Tran are being pushed aside because they're not Olympic eligible. However, I didn't see that anywhere in the team selection criteria. Is the published criteria different from the one actually used?

I have seen the selection criteria for Worlds, but not for Four Continents.

My theory was only about the selection decision for Four Continents.
Have the criteria for Four Continents been published somewhere???

 

[brightphoton]

The CS serves a purpose. Its purpose is not for GP skaters, it is for those who are not yet on the GP or only have one. It is for little country skaters to get minimums and earn the ranking points and prize money they would otherwise be locked out of by the big country skaters.



To be fair, pairs can be hard. There's a lot of cross-pollenation.

Yes, I was being a little harsh. Every Olympics has a few new citizenship emergencies and new country representations for the pairs and ice dance. It just seems like Mervin, who has already been burned by the last Olympics, would have this citizenship thing sorted out by now. This is essentially the exact same situation as Japan 4 years ago.

 

[el henry]

At Worlds, el henry, it's not just about one skater. It's about that skater and their contribution to the team. Now granted, the US men would not be in this position if the ISU criteria for three spots weren't so freaking stupid, since none of Max, Adam or Grant did anything wrong in Boston, but there is one simple fact: placements in Helsinki will determine how many spots a country has at the Olympics.

Now go look at the pictures of Max from Nationals in 2014 and maybe you'll comprehend why this is so damned important to some of us.

Karne, you know I love and appreciate SnugglaDor too. (I don't adore anyone as much as Jason, but everyone has a favorite. Max was classy as could be at 2014 US Nats, despite his personal disappointment.

I agree that we should send who we think will get three spots. Even without my fandom, and my personal "I want to see Jason skate cause this is skating at its unadulterated best", I still don't see the 2017 Worlds as Jason is skating out of a deep dark hole that can't get us the three spots back. And we all know, Jason takes that responsibility seriously too.

(and I also agree, I still do not get how we (US) can have three men in the top ten in 2016 and not have three spots. I mean, I get it, but I don't. So now we have what we have, and I am rooting my patootie off for Nathan to podium.)

 

[NanaPat]

Great catch, that's why I'm on this board, so I can learn about these things. I've always believed that the Challenger Series was not truly representative of "the best" skaters at a specific level from around the world . I thought (minus points, content mins, etc.)
1. Worlds was the best sample of the best skaters in the world for that season (subjective to each federation)
2. 4ccs was still for the elite skaters but "the pool" opened a little wider to include more skaters, (subjective to each federation)
3. GP was each federation selecting skaters to potentially earn a spot at the Final, the most difficult to qualify,
4. The CS opened up to the largest pool of skaters (subjective to each federation)

Am I even close in terms of "importance" or talent levels, etc., or am I way off?

About GP: I believe number of GP events a skater gets is determined by the ISU based on world placements/season best scores the previous years. The only skaters picked by their own federation are the host picks for the 6 host countries. Example of a host pick: Mariah Bell at Skate America.

 

[NanaPat]

Yes, I was being a little harsh. Every Olympics has a few new citizenship emergencies and new country representations for the pairs and ice dance. It just seems like Mervin, who has already been burned by the last Olympics, would have this citizenship thing sorted out by now. This is essentially the exact same situation as Japan 4 years ago.

As I recall (and I'm not looking this up, so someone correct me if I'm wrong): Mervyn was a young Canadian men's single skater when he was found by Richard Gautier and Bruno Marcotte and persuaded to skate pairs with Narumi Takahashi for Japan. He moved to Montreal to train with her, and the Japanese skating fed paid all the expenses for both of them. Japan has very strict citizenship requirements, and he didn't ever live in Japan, so there was never any question of his getting Japanese citizenship or participating in the Olympics.

What was surprising is that his partnership with Narumi ended in December 2012. There were lots of rumors about whether the fed has ended it or Narumi had. The most widely accepted story was that Narumi ended it so she could find a Japanese partner and go to the Olympics, and the fed tried to talk her out of it.

Mervyn then found a Canadian partner, Natasha Purich. There was idle speculation about whether the Japanese fed would release him to compete internationally for Canada, since they had such a latrge investment in him. If they hadn't, it would have been a very odd and perhaps unprecedented situation, since he is actually Canadian and always has been. Apparently they did release him, since he and Purich competed internationally for Canada.

His partnership with Purich didn't work out. There aren't a lot of unpaired pairs women in Canada, especially at his level. A lot of people think Kirsten Moore-Towers should have chosen him over Michael Marinao, but she didn't, or he didn't, or they didn't.

Anyway, he then paired up with his friend Marissa and they agreed to skate for the US but to train in Canada. Canada released him to skate for the US.

Given US citizenship laws, living in Canada pretty much guarantees that he will never get US citizenship. Unless there's an obscure US law I've never heard of that allows citizenship to be granted with no residency conditions. Perhaps by the President? Or by an act of Congress?

 

[TontoK]

I wish I could draw a Venn diagram. I think Jason's fans/detractors/observers fall into these categories.

- Fans who simply enjoy his skating and want him to continue for additional opportunities to compete so the can enjoy it some more.
- Fans that believe that his talent and abilities and competitive mindset will enable him to reach whatever competitive goals he has.
- People who don't like his skating because of their perceptions that he does not have the tech goods to compete.
- People who don't care about his skating one way or another but doesn't think he has the tech to compete.
- People who might not be a fan, but can acknowledge that he unique skills and talents that make him a worthy competitor on the world stage.

Basically you have people of different mindsets trying to talk about his skating. So hence if you're:

- "Beautiful skating fan" : "Yay! More opportunities to see Jason."
- "Technical admirer": "Yay! Jason has a chance to prove people wrong and I think he has the ability to." OR "I hope he can recover from his injury cause I think he can do a lot when he his healthy."
- Detractor: This bites. He doesn't have a quad. I don't get his programs! USFS is so biased for him! He's injured! We won't get three spots. Send Vincent!
- Observer : "I'm not sure if Jason will recover in time to help US get three spots."
- Acknowledging Observer: I think that Jason can reasonably score high enough to get three spots.

It's hard to have a discussion when you have all these different viewpoints at play.

I feel like that one guy that wrote about donuts from the lens of different social media platforms. Mmmmm donuts.

Back for more good-natured fisticuffs with Mrs P. with what I suspect will be a wildly unpopular opinion.

There's the fantasy category that I'm in, which says that USFSA should have gone full out Soviet in this instance, and transferred Jason away from Team Kori following the 2014/5 season to a jumping wizard coach, and sent Rohene with him.

We should have seen phenomenal technical growth that season, and we didn't. It was a sign, and not a good one. We still haven't seen much that is beyond the technical merit he displayed in Riveredance. I think Jason outgrew whatever Kori could offer him 2 years ago.

 

[JustMe]

I never thought I would quote Johnny/Tara, but what did became abundantly clear of U.S. men's figure skating is that finally, "the time of the quad-less men's program, short or long, is over," (and most of us thought it would happen during the time of Timothy Goebel, but he lost his quads before the rest of American male skaters felt the need to learn theirs consistently). Having said that, I still believe that well constructed, choreographed, and performed programs should be worthy of high program component scores, with or without quad(s), like Ross Minor's short program and Jason's free. Similarly, I believe poorly constructed, choreographed, and performed programs with a few sprinkles of quad and quad attempts should be judged accordingly, as was the case with Max Aaron's free skate (and yes, even those that root for him can still recognize that the Lion King has to be one of the worst programs ever performed by an elite skater). The second spot in the men's world team was truly a toss-up: either a 16 year old with little international experience, with an already growing history of injuries, still-developing program components, but with consistent quads; or 22 year old man, with world and olympic experience, earning consistently high program components scores, but with an inconsistent triple axel, a barely-there quad, and with an increasing list of serious injuries. What I don't believe should be a factor in selecting a world team is "who will earn the U.S. three spots for next year world/olympics" because ultimately who cares unless we had a possibility of sweeping all the medals in one discipline? For the same reason I've always believed in sending the best competitors from nationals and saying to the world "these are the best skaters the U.S. has to offer, medal contenders or not, top-ten potential or not, pre-olympic season or not, and they have earned their place to compete among the best." Isn't that what the U.S. has done with pairs the last 15 years? And men the past 7 years? And in ladies for 10 years till last year? In my opinion, if the U.S. men do earn 3 spots for the olympics, with what we saw this weekend, Nathan and Vincent are already heavy favorites for 2 of the spots, everyone else, including Jason, Adam, and Max will need 1 or 2 quad-lucks just for that third spot.

 

[ice coverage]

... Max Aaron's free skate (and yes, even those that root for him can still recognize that the Lion King has to be one of the worst programs ever performed by an elite skater)....

Nope :dev2:.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you are wrong to presume that everyone else shares it.

... What I don't believe should be a factor in selecting a world team is "who will earn the U.S. three spots for next year world/olympics" because ultimately who cares unless we had a possibility of sweeping all the medals in one discipline? ...

I care about three slots. And I bet the skaters themselves care about three slots.

I care about three slots b/c I want as many skaters as possible to have the opportunity to compete at Worlds. The opportunity to compete -- whether they will be contenders for the podium or not.

 

[gravy]

Given US citizenship laws, living in Canada pretty much guarantees that he will never get US citizenship. Unless there's an obscure US law I've never heard of that allows citizenship to be granted with no residency conditions. Perhaps by the President? Or by an act of Congress?

As a Norwegian who has immigrated to the US, I've studied a lot about American naturalization and all provisions require residency. The provision to to become a citizen with the shortest residing time period is 1 year and you have to have done something "extraordinary" for US national security or their intelligence service. The standard is 5 years residency, or 3 if you marry an American. It can be shortened if you serve in the military, too. Point blank: it's impossible to gain citizenship without residing in the country (as it should be).

This isn't Belarus! (Shout out to any gymnastics fan who get's the reference.)

 

[Mrs. P]

Back for more good-natured fisticuffs with Mrs P. with what I suspect will be a wildly unpopular opinion.

There's the fantasy category that I'm in, which says that USFSA should have gone full out Soviet in this instance, and transferred Jason away from Team Kori following the 2014/5 season to a jumping wizard coach, and sent Rohene with him.

We should have seen phenomenal technical growth that season, and we didn't. It was a sign, and not a good one. We still haven't seen much that is beyond the technical merit he displayed in Riveredance. I think Jason outgrew whatever Kori could offer him 2 years ago.

I totally forgot that category. Okay adding it and putting you in as charter member.

That said I don't agree, because again, the stress fracture really put a huge wrench on the progress he was making. Whether it was officially deemed UR, landing the jump at SKAm was a huge confidence boost if nothing else.

Also Jason, while gifted in a lot of areas, jumps has never been one of them. I think he would have been on the same trajectory regardless of which coach he was with. At best maybe he would have gotten a quad a little sooner.

If you look back to his earlier days, he's never been a phrenom; his growth has always been in the slow and steady side of things. That's why he's always under the radar.

I think he'll surprise folks at Worlds, in a good way. But doubting Thomas will prevail for now.

Okay got to get my run in!

 

[JustMe]

Nope :dev2:.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you are wrong to presume that everyone else shares it.

It is indeed only my opinion, I know that, but I never presumed that everyone else would share it (in fact, i expect many to disagree). My apologies if what I wrote implied otherwise.

 

[TontoK]

I never thought I would quote Johnny/Tara, but what did became abundantly clear of U.S. men's figure skating is that finally, "the time of the quad-less men's program, short or long, is over," (and most of us thought it would happen during the time of Timothy Goebel, but he lost his quads before the rest of American male skaters felt the need to learn theirs consistently). Having said that, I still believe that well constructed, choreographed, and performed programs should be worthy of high program component scores, with or without quad(s), like Ross Minor's short program and Jason's free. Similarly, I believe poorly constructed, choreographed, and performed programs with a few sprinkles of quad and quad attempts should be judged accordingly, as was the case with Max Aaron's free skate (and yes, even those that root for him can still recognize that the Lion King has to be one of the worst programs ever performed by an elite skater). The second spot in the men's world team was truly a toss-up: either a 16 year old with little international experience, with an already growing history of injuries, still-developing program components, but with consistent quads; or 22 year old man, with world and olympic experience, earning consistently high program components scores, but with an inconsistent triple axel, a barely-there quad, and with an increasing list of serious injuries. What I don't believe should be a factor in selecting a world team is "who will earn the U.S. three spots for next year world/olympics" because ultimately who cares unless we had a possibility of sweeping all the medals in one discipline? For the same reason I've always believed in sending the best competitors from nationals and saying to the world "these are the best skaters the U.S. has to offer, medal contenders or not, top-ten potential or not, pre-olympic season or not, and they have earned their place to compete among the best." Isn't that what the U.S. has done with pairs the last 15 years? And men the past 7 years? And in ladies for 10 years till last year? In my opinion, if the U.S. men do earn 3 spots for the olympics, with what we saw this weekend, Nathan and Vincent are already heavy favorites for 2 of the spots, everyone else, including Jason, Adam, and Max will need 1 or 2 quad-lucks just for that third spot.

A couple of points:

1. The title of worst program ever performed by an elite skater is reserved for those who do the King Tut hand gestures (a la Steve Martin) while skating to Arabian/Middle Eastern music. Max hasn't done that.

2. Regarding the fantasy world of predicting Nationals a year in advance, I'll play along. For the sake of argument, I'll grant your point that Nathan and Vincent have a leg up next year. However, I'd probably go with Torgeshev rather than any of the men you suggest as fighting for a third spot. I was enormously impressed. So young, but already with a quad and a lot of style. Plus... he looked HUNGRY. Like he wasn't resigned to "wait his turn." I like that. I can't wait to see his skating a year from now.

I've got no problem with Team USA sending teenage jumping phenoms to major events. They all actually have some stylish skating. And that approach has worked for the Russian ladies.

 

[karne]

Max Aaron's free skate (and yes, even those that root for him can still recognize that the Lion King has to be one of the worst programs ever performed by an elite skater)

:scowl: Clearly, you don't watch a lot of skating, then.

It's actually a great program for him, designed and conceptualised by himself, and one he obviously enjoys skating. I have loved it since its first debut (when it was in a different form) and I will still love it if he decides to use it again next season.

 

[Tavi...]

I never thought I would quote Johnny/Tara, but what did became abundantly clear of U.S. men's figure skating is that finally, "the time of the quad-less men's program, short or long, is over," (and most of us thought it would happen during the time of Timothy Goebel, but he lost his quads before the rest of American male skaters felt the need to learn theirs consistently). Having said that, I still believe that well constructed, choreographed, and performed programs should be worthy of high program component scores, with or without quad(s), like Ross Minor's short program and Jason's free. Similarly, I believe poorly constructed, choreographed, and performed programs with a few sprinkles of quad and quad attempts should be judged accordingly, as was the case with Max Aaron's free skate (and yes, even those that root for him can still recognize that the Lion King has to be one of the worst programs ever performed by an elite skater). The second spot in the men's world team was truly a toss-up: either a 16 year old with little international experience, with an already growing history of injuries, still-developing program components, but with consistent quads; or 22 year old man, with world and olympic experience, earning consistently high program components scores, but with an inconsistent triple axel, a barely-there quad, and with an increasing list of serious injuries. What I don't believe should be a factor in selecting a world team is "who will earn the U.S. three spots for next year world/olympics" because ultimately who cares unless we had a possibility of sweeping all the medals in one discipline? For the same reason I've always believed in sending the best competitors from nationals and saying to the world "these are the best skaters the U.S. has to offer, medal contenders or not, top-ten potential or not, pre-olympic season or not, and they have earned their place to compete among the best." Isn't that what the U.S. has done with pairs the last 15 years? And men the past 7 years? And in ladies for 10 years till last year? In my opinion, if the U.S. men do earn 3 spots for the olympics, with what we saw this weekend, Nathan and Vincent are already heavy favorites for 2 of the spots, everyone else, including Jason, Adam, and Max will need 1 or 2 quad-lucks just for that third spot.

You make some good points, but:

1. I don't think it's accurate to describe Jason's 3A as inconsistent any more; he has been landing it consistently this season, with good to very good GOE. He did struggle with it at NHK and in the SP at Nats, but I think that was due to injury rather than incomplete technical mastery.

2. I'm willing to bet that the skaters themselves are happy that USFS is trying to maximize spots for the Olympics. Worlds come around every year; the Olympics don't.

3. Nathan may be a lock to go to the Olympics, but I wouldn't put Vincent there just yet. He's got talent and potential, yes, but he hasn't shown enough, IMO, to be guaranteed a trip to the Olympics over all other current US men.

 

[JustMe]

:scowl: Clearly, you don't watch a lot of skating, then.

It's actually a great program for him, designed and conceptualised by himself, and one he obviously enjoys skating. I have loved it since its first debut (when it was in a different form) and I will still love it if he decides to use it again next season.

Well, he fooled me because he looks like he either doesn't enjoy this program, or never learned how to perform it (not on its debut, and definitely not at nationals). But who knows, maybe he does internalize the joy he feels when performing this program, deep down inside, and maybe he externalize it next season and make the lion roar.

 

[JustMe]

A couple of points:

1. The title of worst program ever performed by an elite skater is reserved for those who do the King Tut hand gestures (a la Steve Martin) while skating to Arabian/Middle Eastern music. Max hasn't done that.

2. Regarding the fantasy world of predicting Nationals a year in advance, I'll play along. For the sake of argument, I'll grant your point that Nathan and Vincent have a leg up next year. However, I'd probably go with Torgeshev rather than any of the men you suggest as fighting for a third spot. I was enormously impressed. So young, but already with a quad and a lot of style. Plus... he looked HUNGRY. Like he wasn't resigned to "wait his turn." I like that. I can't wait to see his skating a year from now.

I've got no problem with Team USA sending teenage jumping phenoms to major events. They all actually have some stylish skating. And that approach has worked for the Russian ladies.

point 1: Agreed (and I did say "one of the worst," but should have expanded and perhaps specified/added "this season").
point 2: Agreed (though I did say "with what we saw this weekend," and by that I meant senior men's championship...again, I should have been more specific)
:agree:

 

[Chemistry66]

As a Norwegian who has immigrated to the US, I've studied a lot about American naturalization and all provisions require residency. The provision to to become a citizen with the shortest residing time period is 1 year and you have to have done something "extraordinary" for US national security or their intelligence service. The standard is 5 years residency, or 3 if you marry an American. It can be shortened if you serve in the military, too. Point blank: it's impossible to gain citizenship without residing in the country (as it should be).

This isn't Belarus! (Shout out to any gymnastics fan who get's the reference.)

Reading new posts just before I go to bed and the Belarus bit made me burst out laughing. That whole thing was a mess in itself.

 

[Mrs. P]

Reading new posts just before I go to bed and the Belarus bit made me burst out laughing. That whole thing was a mess in itself.

I had to look that up since I'm not a hard-core gymnastics fan. Talk about country shopping, LOL.

 

[Eislauf]

... the USFSA should have gone full out Soviet in this instance, and transferred Jason away from Team Kori following the 2014/5 season to a jumping wizard coach, and sent Rohene with him.

We should have seen phenomenal technical growth that season, and we didn't. It was a sign, and not a good one. We still haven't seen much that is beyond the technical merit he displayed in Riveredance. I think Jason outgrew whatever Kori could offer him 2 years ago.

So true. Jason has been touted as the next big star for 4 years now, but hasn't developed his technical skills to deliver on the world stage. Plus he's been injured. And now there's a new crop of teenagers surpassing him technically and out scoring him. It's significant that Mariah Bell has improved her jumps, consistency, and ranking dramatically since switching from Kori to Rafa. It's no coincidence that the USFSA is getting behind Mariah now that she's skating like a budding star.