US Team: 4CCs and Worlds (updated)

[Tavi...]

Note: Nirti posted the entries list for Bavarian Open, and Vincent's name isn't on it:

http://goldenskate.com/forum/showth...an-Open-2017&p=1615668&viewfull=1#post1615668

Could he be added later? Or is there some other competition where he'd be able to earn the senior TES?

Interesting. There are several TBDs for the US, including one for junior men, but none for senior men. Unless I'm misreading it or the US can move the TBD to senior men (or there's another comp where he can get the mins), that suggests that should Jason need to withdraw, he would be replaced by Grant or Max.

 

[Mrs. P]

Interesting. There are several TBDs for the US, including one for junior men, but none for senior men. Unless I'm misreading it or the US can move the TBD to senior men (or there's another comp where he can get the mins), that suggests that should Jason need to withdraw, he would be replaced by Grant or Max.

There's a few other comps he can do. But I wouldn't take that entry list as gospel. I remember with Golden Spin that the entries for U.S. were constantly changing....it had Ashley on it, then others were added later (and Ashley was taken out later). Bavarian Open is definitely the scheduled senior B, USFS was going to use to get skater minimums, I don't think they would divert from that.

 

[Tavi...]

There's a few other comps he can do. But I wouldn't take that entry list as gospel. I remember with Golden Spin that the entries for U.S. were constantly changing....it had Ashley on it, then others were added later (and Ashley was taken out later). Bavarian Open is definitely the scheduled senior B, USFS was going to use to get skater minimums, I don't think they would divert from that.

In any case, I'm hoping that Jason's recovery goes as planned and that he, not an alternate, will compete at Worlds

 

[Moxiejan]

Ah, sorry, Tyler is the one who went twice. But still. I think the odds of Bradie medalling at the Olympics are basically zero. I think USFSA would do better to invest in a younger girl, like Starr or Alexia or someone who could really do with more international experience and has actually been skating junior programs all season...

Starr is the first alternate; she's just 15 now, so has lots of junior years left. Alexia placed just 5th in juniors at nationals; don't know why she would have been selected, even if no Seniors were.

The U.S. is investing in younger Seniors not just for Olympics/Worlds but for ranking points for next fall's Grand Prix. Right now,
we have Karen, Ashley, Mariah and Mirai.

And then?
Gracie might not improve (or even choose to continue).
Courtney & Polina are nursing injuries; will they be better?
Tessa, Caroline and Angela are still question marks.

We need to have Bradie or Amber as an option.

 

[andromache]

While I agree with Phil's logic and think the USFSA made the right decisions, it is stupid for them to say "we have this new set of criteria we need to follow" and then not do so. Gracie was understandably upset that she met the criteria better than two other skaters, yet was failed to be selected. Gracie should not be on the world team, but the arbitrariness of the stated selection process gives skaters hope when they should have none. If Gracie "checks off more boxes" than others and is not selected, then the selection criteria needs to be changed, or the USFSA needs to admit there is no real selection criteria and they're going to selected whomever they want.

I see their list of tiers less as strict criteria and moreso as the factors they consider. The way it's set up, there are no boxes to check. There's no equation or formula to translate how well a 4th place finish at last years Worlds combined with a dismal GP series and a bad Nationals stacks up against a decent Nationals and a GP medal. They decided not to make math out of it, and probably for good reason.

The tiers themselves seem pretty meaningless, as I've described above, because there's no magic way to compared all these different results to one another to figure out who is more deserving. USFS has thrown together some nonsense to point to when they make their decisions, and honestly, I'm fine with it. USFS wants good international results, especially when our spots are in danger, and their job is (and IMO should be) to select the people who have the most chance of success at Worlds.

The competitions/loose criteria in tiers seem like a vague attempt to make a logical list of previous competitions that, taken together, could be indicative of future success (or not) at Worlds.

The only criteria they've made up that isn't up to interpretation is that they will only consider the top 5 finishers at Nationals (or people out with injury, like S/K). Which doesn't include Gracie.

 

[Mrs. P]

The only criteria they've made up that isn't up to interpretation is that they will only consider the top 5 finishers at Nationals (or people out with injury, like S/K). Which doesn't include Gracie.

So I read elsewhere on the forum that the Knierims technically didn't have to file a petition due to the new system. But since the rule states that the top 5 finishers at Nationals are being considered and they weren't there, wouldn't a petition be necessary for that reason?

 

[mrrice]

If Phil Hersh is vouching for a guy without a quad, you know it's legit.

Completely True!!!! In fact, a bit of surprise coming from him.

 

[andromache]

So I read elsewhere on the forum that the Knierims technically didn't have to file a petition due to the new system. But since the rule states that the top 5 finishers at Nationals are being considered and they weren't there, wouldn't a petition be necessary for that reason?

No idea. I've only read the criteria as presented here on GoldenSkate - haven't read any of the actual publications or legalese about it. But I imagine there's some sort of provision saying they'll consider people who were unable to compete at Nationals?

 

[tulosai]

So I read elsewhere on the forum that the Knierims technically didn't have to file a petition due to the new system. But since the rule states that the top 5 finishers at Nationals are being considered and they weren't there, wouldn't a petition be necessary for that reason?

Some people have speculated that it might not be necessary now but I personally haven't seen any definite indication that it's true. The pairs teams S/K and also Kayne/Oshea clearly thought they needed to (or at least really should) petition if they wanted to be considered as shown by S/K doing so and K/OS specifically stating to the press they would not be doing so.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

USFS has thrown together some nonsense to point to when they make their decisions, and honestly, I'm fine with it. USFS wants good international results, especially when our spots are in danger, and their job is (and IMO should be) to select the people who have the most chance of success at Worlds.

Agreed, but they can't point to international results when selecting Karen over Gracie, for example. Both had about identical GP finishes, Gracie's SB is about 5 points higher in international events, Gracie was 4th in the world. There are many reasons to select Karen, most of all because she is the national champion, but for some reason the USFSA had made that alone not to be the sole factor. I'm glad they require skaters to be in the top 5, because that limits the pool of eligible skaters substantially (although I think that was unofficially the case before, as it was brought up during Ashley's selection for the Sochi team). For me, the open-endedness is problematic because there is a good deal of politiking involved. Had Gracie finished 5th and Mariah had a less well-known coach, I think she could have been bumped in favor of Gold.

 

[Chemistry66]

So I read elsewhere on the forum that the Knierims technically didn't have to file a petition due to the new system. But since the rule states that the top 5 finishers at Nationals are being considered and they weren't there, wouldn't a petition be necessary for that reason?

They did have to file a petition. As per the post on FSU where the criteria were posted (directly quoted from the actual selection document):

The names of the top five athletes/teams at the current U.S. Figure Skating Championships will be automatically placed into the pool of athletes/teams being considered for the World Team, if eligible. Consideration will be given to add additional athletes/teams to the pool by reviewing the events above in priority order and adding others due to extenuating circumstances as approved by the respective International Committee Discipline Group.

Top 5 per discipline at Nationals automatically are in the pool (not S-K/K), and additional athletes can be added due to extenuating circumstances (petitions, such as S-K/K)

 

[lyndichee]

I don't think there was any issue that they would be first alternates. They were clearly the fourth best team.

Internationally yes. But they did poorly at nationals so it was just nice to see that it didn't affect that.

 

[ice coverage]

They did have to file a petition. As per the post on FSU where the criteria were posted (directly quoted from the actual selection document):



Top 5 per discipline at Nationals automatically are in the pool (not S-K/K), and additional athletes can be added due to extenuating circumstances (petitions, such as S-K/K)

IMO, the rules remain murky b/c we have only that excerpt (later published by Hersh on IN as well).

The excerpt says nothing about a requirement for skaters not in the top 5 at Nats to formally file a petition.

Is it possible, for example, that a member of the selection committee could request consideration of a skater (not in the top 5 at Nats) who has not filed a petition? An uninjured skater who placed 6th, for example -- who has extenuating circumstances?
The excerpt does not answer those questions.

Perhaps(??) the full USFS document spelling out every aspect of the selection procedures does have a rule that specifies that a skater (outside the top 5 at Nats) must file a formal petition.
But based only on the excerpt, we do not know definitively one way or the other.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Top 5 per discipline at Nationals automatically are in the pool (not S-K/K), and additional athletes can be added due to extenuating circumstances (petitions, such as S-K/K)

Ok, so given her result at Worlds and as last year's champion, Gracie was probably in that pool despite finishing outside the top 5. Still, the right team was chosen. Gracie needs to shut down for the season and build herself back up. She has plenty of time to find a new coach and rebuild her confidence before the start of the GP season in October.

 

[NanaPat]

As a Norwegian who has immigrated to the US, I've studied a lot about American naturalization and all provisions require residency. The provision to to become a citizen with the shortest residing time period is 1 year and you have to have done something "extraordinary" for US national security or their intelligence service. The standard is 5 years residency, or 3 if you marry an American. It can be shortened if you serve in the military, too. Point blank: it's impossible to gain citizenship without residing in the country (as it should be).

This isn't Belarus! (Shout out to any gymnastics fan who get's the reference.)

Or Georgia. Alison Reed the US-born ice dancer received Georgian citizenship a month before the 2010 Olympics without ever setting foot in the country. She now competes for Israel.

 

[Sai Bon]

As I recall (and I'm not looking this up, so someone correct me if I'm wrong): Mervyn was a young Canadian men's single skater when he was found by Richard Gautier and Bruno Marcotte and persuaded to skate pairs with Narumi Takahashi for Japan. He moved to Montreal to train with her, and the Japanese skating fed paid all the expenses for both of them. Japan has very strict citizenship requirements, and he didn't ever live in Japan, so there was never any question of his getting Japanese citizenship or participating in the Olympics.

What was surprising is that his partnership with Narumi ended in December 2012. There were lots of rumors about whether the fed has ended it or Narumi had. The most widely accepted story was that Narumi ended it so she could find a Japanese partner and go to the Olympics, and the fed tried to talk her out of it.

Mervyn then found a Canadian partner, Natasha Purich. There was idle speculation about whether the Japanese fed would release him to compete internationally for Canada, since they had such a latrge investment in him. If they hadn't, it would have been a very odd and perhaps unprecedented situation, since he is actually Canadian and always has been. Apparently they did release him, since he and Purich competed internationally for Canada.

His partnership with Purich didn't work out. There aren't a lot of unpaired pairs women in Canada, especially at his level. A lot of people think Kirsten Moore-Towers should have chosen him over Michael Marinao, but she didn't, or he didn't, or they didn't.

Anyway, he then paired up with his friend Marissa and they agreed to skate for the US but to train in Canada. Canada released him to skate for the US.

Given US citizenship laws, living in Canada pretty much guarantees that he will never get US citizenship. Unless there's an obscure US law I've never heard of that allows citizenship to be granted with no residency conditions. Perhaps by the President? Or by an act of Congress?

Thanks for that accurate rundown, NanaPat. I see no justification for dissing Mervin. I'm sure if there had been a suitable Canadian partner for him, he would have been more than happy to skate for Canada. I think he is trying to make the most of what's left of his years as a competitive skater by skating with Marissa, even if they never make it to the Olympics. He has my support.

 

[Eislauf]

Hate to admit it, but I'm a little tired of the skaters from this last 4 year Olympic cycle...Gracie, Ashley, Jason, Adam, Max, Ross and so on. It's exciting to watch the new crop of senior skaters.

 

[Mrs. P]

Hate to admit it, but I'm a little tired of the skaters from this last 4 year Olympic cycle...Gracie, Ashley, Jason, Adam, Max, Ross and so on. It's exciting to watch the new crop of senior skaters.

Understandable. I feel like fans go through this every four years. Four years ago, people were getting tired of Jeremy and eager to usher the era of Jason, Josh, Max... I sort of laughed back then cause I knew that one day people would say the same thing about them (though Josh, sadly never had the opportunity for people to get sick of him).

I'm more of a trajectory type fan, so I appreciate skaters at the level they're at, so it's easy for me to embrace the new and the "senior citizen."

It is fun to see all the junior U.S. champions (and a bunch of junior medalists) going head to head in seniors. This year, we had every junior champ since 2009 (Tomoki,Andrew,Nathan (2x), Vincent, Max, Jason and Ross). IT would have been 2008 had Adam been there. I think the fact there's a bit of continuity is sort of cool -- you don't quite see that in the Ladies (though it was cool to see 3/4 members of the U.S. Nationals Class of 2008 end up at the top 5 here).

 

[Skater Boy]

I now there are new rules but imho which doesn't matter.

`1. I don't like how Gold is given so many chances despite a huge downward spiral - regardless of the criteria- her last 4 competitions have not been good (or more).

2. It seems rather odd a team without a world medal, and while having shown potential not considered at the top echelon yet in s-k/k. and odd that the no. 2 team at nats got nothing regardless of Olympic eligibility.
(mind you as some will know I am not a huge fan of skaters switching countries really just to compete I can think of some bad words which I won't say lol.

3. It would serve the USA right that all this "strategizing" lol backfires. I mean which is hard to factor in injuries or coming back from injuries. So really Jason and Sk/k are a bit lucky - other nations it would be tough luck. This also might hurt Vincent - surely they could find a chnce for him to get tech minimum

4. Some empathy for Zhang who worked so hard to do so well and it really isn't being recognized criteria or no criteria.

5. Mirai sort of got the shot end of the stick arguably because there could be an argument for her to go to worlds. While it is criteria based - again that can be fudged so to speak, one could argue forget criteria Karen and Mariah get to go but not Vincent? Seems somewhat contradictory.

Dance is the only event without controversy really. I wonder how C and M feel?

 

[karne]

5. Mirai sort of got the shot end of the stick arguably because there could be an argument for her to go to worlds. While it is criteria based - again that can be fudged so to speak, one could argue forget criteria Karen and Mariah get to go but not Vincent? Seems somewhat contradictory.

What, exactly, would you make this change on? What achievement has Mirai had this season that overwrites Chen and Bell?

Vincent had a less-than-stellar JGP season and withdrew from his Senior B; Jason has a GP medal out of this season and also medals on his Senior Bs with one aberration of a competition. The two scenarios are not the same.