US Team: 4CCs and Worlds (updated)

[Mrs. P]

Don't fall for the hype. (U.S.) commentators get paid for hyping U.S. athletes.

Audiences enjoyed Jeremy's artistic programs, in particular Exogenisis. He went to two Olympics, finishing ninth and twelfth. What was he the second coming of?

But he did well nationally, winning four U.S. titles, and he persevered over a long career always striving to improve.

The importance of Jason Brown is not how many quads he didn't do but rather that he, to some extent, revived interest in figure skating in the U.S. at a time when general interest threatened to disappear altogether. Everyone loved the enthusiastic personality that he brought to his Riverdance performance at U.S. Nationals. He got a million views on You Tube. Good for him.

What is the point of belittling skaters and calling them names?

For the sake of accuracy, Jason's YT video got more than four million views.

But :agree: on everything else.

 

[Manitou]

What is the point of belittling skaters and calling them names?

I am not belittling or calling names, but just being a little bitter in disappointment. It's not the same. There used to be a time when I thought he would be the One ...

 

[topaz emerald]

...about "snowflakes":



There are some exceptions from that rule. There used to be an entire thread about one particular "exception"..
And if we look deeper we may find even more...

I am even wondering if I should add Jason Brown to that category. It very well may be. Either way, in my opinion he is becoming probably the most overrated US male skater since Jeremy Abbott. I start to classify him in the category of "annoyances".
I really hope Nathan doesn't follow their footsteps.

since Jeremy Abbott? No way, please pick someone else. Jeremy had quad toes And he had such amazing presence on the ice, so tall, gorgeous body line, mature, manly yet graceful, grabs your attention, but most of all, he was a real performer, NOT an interpreter, LOL! He skated with abandonment. I can't think of ANY male skater that displays that kind of artistic ability, so genuine.

appreciate this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHbADOamI3s
and this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oeya_bPe53Y
and this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UciW17pYzxw
and this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhVENARh1vw

...I can go on and on, LOL

this is what's missing in figure skating nowadays.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Mirai's triple-triple was called clean here and it looked good at nationals as well. I think she is a safer choice for world's, US needs to do everything they can to try and get 3 spots at the Olympics. I don't want to have to watch Gracie, Ashley, Mirai, Polina... whoever is a strong 3rd next season having to stay home. 2014's ordeal was already sad enough and we had 3 spots.

I don't think any combination of 3 US women (in their current form) can keep 3 spots, unfortunately. Ashley is 9th on the season's best score list (7th among women who will be at Worlds), Mariah is 16th and Karen is 37th. It's hard to imagine anyone placing in the top 8 with Evgenia, Ashley, Anna, Satoko, Kaetlyn, Gabrielle, Caro, and Maria in the field. It's also possible that a few wildcards like Mai and Elizabet skate well, too.

 

[stella luna]

When Jeremy is on, he's great.

since Jeremy Abbott? No way, please pick someone else. Jeremy had quad toes And he had such amazing presence on the ice, so tall, gorgeous body line, mature, manly yet graceful, grabs your attention, but most of all, he was a real performer, NOT an interpreter, LOL! He skated with abandonment. I can't think of ANY male skater that displays that kind of artistic ability, so genuine.

appreciate this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHbADOamI3s
and this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oeya_bPe53Y
and this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UciW17pYzxw
and this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhVENARh1vw

...I can go on and on, LOL

this is what's missing in figure skating nowadays.

 

[Mathman]

I agree, she's like maybe our #4. Mirai breaks 60 easily with an error on the triple loop, Karen has only broken 60 one time internationally (and it wasn't even this season). Mariah's had a decent season, she makes mistakes but she doesn't completely bomb, she salvages and holds it together. I'd have Ashley as the #1 US lady internationally. Mirai's triple-triple was called clean here and it looked good at nationals as well. I think she is a safer choice for world's, US needs to do everything they can to try and get 3 spots at the Olympics. I don't want to have to watch Gracie, Ashley, Mirai, Polina... whoever is a strong 3rd next season having to stay home. 2014's ordeal was already sad enough and we had 3 spots.

Well, it doesn't really matter who we think is number four or number three, or who is 16th or 37th on the ISU list. The die is cast. Rank them how you will, it is still up to Karen and Mariah to bring home the bacon. If they don't, then, yes, next year's third place lady will miss out on the Olympics amd some skater from another country will go instead.

I don't think any combination of 3 US women (in their current form) can keep 3 spots, unfortunately. Ashley is 9th on the season's best score list (7th among women who will be at Worlds), Mariah is 16th and Karen is 37th. It's hard to imagine anyone placing in the top 8 with Evgenia, Ashley, Anna, Satoko, Kaetlyn, Gabrielle, Caro, and Maria in the field. It's also possible that a few wildcards like Mai and Elizabet skate well, too.

Oh, don't be such a Gloomy Gus. Go Karen! Go Mariah! If one of them gets ninth and Ashley gets fourth, there you go!

 

[bekalc]

I don't think Jason/Jeremy compares.

Jeremy was a brilliant skater when he was on. He has a quad. If he had competed in Vancover like he did at Nationals that year-he'd be Olympic Champ. Way better than anything Evan ever put out IMO. But Jeremy was never a very good competitor and that matters.

As for Jason Brown, he's a decent competitor but he's really not a very good jumper. I think Brown has peaked. I would love to be proven wrong but. I do think USFSA made a mistake not encouraging those with good jumps. If there's one thing that annoys me is the idea that you can be complete without the jumps.

You want to say that Max Aaron is not a complete skater okay. But neither is Brown. This doesn't mean Brown isn't fun to watch, but I do think going forward the Federation should invest in those who have the ability to compete.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I don't think Jason/Jeremy compares.

Jeremy was a brilliant skater when he was on. He has a quad. If he had competed in Vancover like he did at Nationals that year-he'd be Olympic Champ. Way better than anything Evan ever put out IMO. But Jeremy was never a very good competitor and that matters.

As for Jason Brown, he's a decent competitor but he's really not a very good jumper. I think Brown has peaked. I would love to be proven wrong but. I do think USFSA made a mistake not encouraging those with good jumps. If there's one thing that annoys me is the idea that you can be complete without the jumps.

You want to say that Max Aaron is not a complete skater okay. But neither is Brown. This doesn't mean Brown isn't fun to watch, but I do think going forward the Federation should invest in those who have the ability to compete.

The issue is that for the past few years or so after Lysaceck/Weir many of the American men haven't shown they can compete consistently whether they were an artist or a jumper...if you want to buy into that simple dichotomy. That's why last year's Worlds was so great. The Men may not have gotten 3 spots, but they performed really well for their ability and all 3 placed in the top 10.

 

[el henry]

I come from another point of view re Jeremy and Jason; during the years I watched them both, I found Jason to be a more compelling, more complete skater than Jeremy. I also always held my breath watching Jeremy, because if he fell, or was "off", the entire program was off. But I could never warm up to Jeremy, and that may be my lack.

And if there's one thing that annoys me, it's that skaters are considered the complete package without spins, steps, transitions and programs *equal* in quality to their jumps. A standard that all should aspire to.

But, coming from a Toller uber, a skater without spins is like a rink without ice

 

[mrrice]

Speaking of Vincent...Did he ever skater to "The Writing's On The Wall?" I swear I've heard Jason Brown's SP music somewhere before...

 

[karne]

Jason is a very good, very reliable competitor. If this wasn't the year that determined Olympic spots maybe I'd feel differently, but I still carry a wound in my heart from 2014 that if the US men only have two spots for next year will never heal.

Jason has shown that, when on - and he is "on" a lot more than Abbott ever was - he can compete, he can throw down big scores and move himself up the standings. Vincent is almost completely untried. I'm not buying that. You have to go with the proven guy for this year. You have to. Anything else is a beyond short-term view.

Did the USFS do the right thing by Max? Of course they didn't. If they had done the right thing by him, maybe we would be reading different stories now. But four years ago, the USFS declared to all their men that being an "arteeste" was all that mattered. They destroyed any chance their only multi-quad jumper (at the time) had of building an international rep and opened this path instead.

But booting Jason off the team in favour of an untried rookie in the year Olympic spots are determined is a beyond stupid idea and I can't figure out how people can think otherwise.

 

[Mrs. P]

I don't think Jason/Jeremy compares.

Jeremy was a brilliant skater when he was on. He has a quad. If he had competed in Vancover like he did at Nationals that year-he'd be Olympic Champ. Way better than anything Evan ever put out IMO. But Jeremy was never a very good competitor and that matters.

As for Jason Brown, he's a decent competitor but he's really not a very good jumper. I think Brown has peaked. I would love to be proven wrong but. I do think USFSA made a mistake not encouraging those with good jumps. If there's one thing that annoys me is the idea that you can be complete without the jumps.

You want to say that Max Aaron is not a complete skater okay. But neither is Brown. This doesn't mean Brown isn't fun to watch, but I do think going forward the Federation should invest in those who have the ability to compete.

But Jason HAS shown he can compete. In spite of his technical limitations, he still has the 8th best SB's score and the second highest among all the U.S. men -- he's only behind Nathan. I feel it's a bit unfair to base Jason's career trajectory based on what has been three months of injury/recovery.

Judges generally like him and he still scored the 5th highest PCS even with a flawed SP.

That said, I will grant that USFSA is taking a bit of a gamble by picking Jason to go to Worlds namely because you're somewhat taking him (and his team) at his world that he will be at peak condition by Worlds. And I understand the skepticism too.

I hope he proves you (and other skeptics) wrong too, and I mean that in the most sincere, nicest way possible. By the way, it's nice to see you posting. It's been a while!

 

[Mathman]

But four years ago, the USFS declared to all their men that being an "arteeste" was all that mattered. They destroyed any chance their only multi-quad jumper (at the time) had of building an international rep and opened this path instead.

I really don't think that the USFSA did anything much one way or the other. They took the best skaters that they had, sent them to international competitions, and hoped for the best.

But booting Jason off the team in favour of an untried rookie in the year Olympic spots are determined is a beyond stupid idea and I can't figure out how people can think otherwise.

This is sort of a straw man, it seems to me. No one is going to boot anyone on or off the team.

 

[bekalc]

Jason is a very good, very reliable competitor. If this wasn't the year that determined Olympic spots maybe I'd feel differently, but I still carry a wound in my heart from 2014 that if the US men only have two spots for next year will never heal.

Jason has shown that, when on - and he is "on" a lot more than Abbott ever was - he can compete, he can throw down big scores and move himself up the standings. Vincent is almost completely untried. I'm not buying that. You have to go with the proven guy for this year. You have to. Anything else is a beyond short-term view.

Did the USFS do the right thing by Max? Of course they didn't. If they had done the right thing by him, maybe we would be reading different stories now. But four years ago, the USFS declared to all their men that being an "arteeste" was all that mattered. They destroyed any chance their only multi-quad jumper (at the time) had of building an international rep and opened this path instead.

But booting Jason off the team in favour of an untried rookie in the year Olympic spots are determined is a beyond stupid idea and I can't figure out how people can think otherwise.

I don't know if I would boot him off. But I am not convinced he was the best choice for the team. Vincent scored higher with mistakes at the Bavarian Open.

I gave Jason credit for being a good competitor. However Abbott won some some international competitions has Jason? No. Abbott if he had skated his best at his peak, would have won the Olympics or Worlds. But because he was a bad competitor never did. He has a GPF title and I don't think Brown's ever made one.

As for Jason, he's a good competitor as I said but a BAD Jumper. And I wouldn't say he's super consistent either. For a good placement, he's reliant on being perfect and others making mistakes lots of them.

 

[bekalc]

But Jason HAS shown he can compete. In spite of his technical limitations, he still has the 8th best SB's score and the second highest among all the U.S. men -- he's only behind Nathan. I feel it's a bit unfair to base Jason's career trajectory based on what has been three months of injury/recovery.

Judges generally like him and he still scored the 5th highest PCS even with a flawed SP.

That said, I will grant that USFSA is taking a bit of a gamble by picking Jason to go to Worlds namely because you're somewhat taking him (and his team) at his world that he will be at peak condition by Worlds. And I understand the skepticism too.

I don't think 8th SB is that much to write home about. I also don't think second US men is (seeing as to be frank the US men haven't exactly been dominating)

We have men landing Quad lutzs and quad flips, and Jason can barely do a 3 axel. Let alone a quad. That's the reality here. I don't dislike Jason. He's fun to watch. But if he can't even do quad toe in competition at his age, I don't see him ever catching up to the top men. A lot of other men would be more consistent too, if they were doing Brown's content.

I am not saying this to be hater. This is though a sport.

Once again, I am not convinced giving Jason the spot was necessarily wrong. But I also feel that Jason's placements this year and jump content weren't super much to write home about either. I would have waited if I were USFSA to see what happens, at Bavarian Open/Junior worlds/Four Continents.

 

[skatinggold]

Totally agree, they should kick Jason Brown out of the World Team. He came in third at US Nationals, he can't compete with the top men with his technical content. If he has a stable quad, i don't mind sending him to worlds but there are so many guys who will outscore him. I am worry about the third spot. If he wants to compete and be on the top, he needs those quads or else he will never reach world podium. I just hope Jason will switch to a technical coach, he is a beautiful skater.

 

[Mrs. P]

I don't think 8th SB is that much to write home about. I also don't think second US men is (seeing as to be frank the US men haven't exactly been dominating)

We have men landing Quad lutzs and quad flips, and Jason can barely do a 3 axel. Let alone a quad. That's the reality here. I don't dislike Jason. He's fun to watch. But if he can't even do quad toe in competition at his age, I don't see him ever catching up to the top men. A lot of other men would be more consistent too, if they were doing Brown's content.

I am not saying this to be hater. This is though a sport.

Nope, I don't think you're a hater at all.

His jumps -- including the 3A --looked great earlier in the season. Until NHK -- when the injury played havoc -- he had landed every 3A he attempted. He had landed the quad (albeit underrotated) at Skate America free skate.

The point is that at his best, he can still post a top 8 score, which is valuable as far as getting three spots. The fact that he consistently get PCS scores that are only lower than the top of the top shows that judges do appreciate his other abilities.

I don't have qualms about saying that Jason is a beat -- really several beats-- behind the top men with jumps, but again that's been the story of his entire career even when he was a Novice. Maybe the quads -- and these injuries -- will be his complete undoing and I understand the skepticism. However, I -- and I speak for myself -- like to see how things play out the rest of THIS season -- oh, hey even just for tomorrow's free skate at least -- before prematurely declaring that he is destined to never progress in his career.

And I like to point out one obvious point.... if thriving in sports competition was merely about the amount of technical ability, then, as pointed out -- Jeremy Abbott would be an individual world and/or medalist. So would Nobunari Oda, who had beautiful quads. And Gracie Gold would probably have a few world medals too.

 

[Mathman]

Totally agree, they should kick Jason Brown out of the World Team...

That ship has sailed.

I am worry about the third spot...

No sweat. Nathan 1st, Jason 12th.

 

[karne]

I don't think 8th SB is that much to write home about. I also don't think second US men is (seeing as to be frank the US men haven't exactly been dominating)

You don't? You mean to say you don't think it'll be anything to write home about if Jason finishes 8th at Worlds and Nathan finishes 5th or higher and they bring home three spots?

We have men landing Quad lutzs and quad flips, and Jason can barely do a 3 axel. Let alone a quad. That's the reality here.

Let me correct that for you. There is ONE US man landing quad Lutzes and flips. Vincent hasn't been called clean on anything. Jason was getting +GOE on the 3A prior to the injury and had also stood up on a 4T that was bogus called UR. THAT'S the ACTUAL reality.

But I also feel that Jason's placements this year and jump content weren't super much to write home about either.

Where's Vincent's Senior B and GP medals then?

I am worry about the third spot.

I would be more worried about the third spot if the USFS followed stupidly short-sighted views like yours and threw A SENIOR ROOKIE onto the Worlds team in the all-important year where Olympic spots are on the line, instead of going with a tried and tested, safe and reliable competitor.

 

[TontoK]

That ship has sailed.



No sweat. Nathan 1st, Jason 12th.

Well, I'm going to say something guaranteed to tick off some people. Shocking, I know.

Why all the worry about the third spot for US men? Based on current performance, it's not as though the third man would be anything to write home about anyway.

I mean, we don't have a large pool of Olympic level talent right now. I mean if we had five or six who were capable of a top 10 performance, then 3 slots would be something good. But we don't have that many, and if we get that third spot, USFSA is capable of ignoring results at US Nats and sending a pet who really doesn't deserve it anyway.