US Team: 4CCs and Worlds (updated)

[Skater Boy]

I feel like Nathan makes a sincere attempt to interpret the music he is skating to, whereas I always felt like Max looked uncomfortable expressing an artistic point of view.

I agree he is trying but the judges are being very kind and generous it would seem too.

 

[karne]

I don't mind the minimum requirements but I think Juniors should count

Well, they used to. Otherwise we would have been having this EXACT conversation about Nathan last year! The rule is new this season.

 

[Tavi...]

I don't think I've been nasty about anyone.

Well, except Urmanov, and any right-thinking person will agree with me that his videos should be pulled from the internet so that he's not inflicted on future generations.

But, other than that... I don't think I've been nasty.

And, for the record, there are plenty of skaters I enjoy whom I don't believe are Olympic caliber.

You don't think that saying that it doesn't matter if we have three spots is in itself nasty? There's subtext there: what you're really saying is that no one matters except for Nathan.

Also: somewhere you wrote essentially that you're fickle about what you like in figure skating; to paraphrase, that these days you're in the mood for muscular wow programs and not laybacks; that you used to like Jason but now he bores you.

It's not that you've said anything so nasty about a particular skater, but rather that you seemingly don't value anything about any skater beyond what they do for you - kind of like a steak versus chicken dinner.

Well this IS a sport. I already stated that on a personal level or note Brown should be proud of what he accomplished it's more than most men will ever dream of. But at this point is he likely to ever win a World or Olympic medal on his own? No.

The US men has a legacy of creating champions world and Olympic ones and the USFSA has a responsibility to groom the skaters most likely to achieve this.

And I think they have done a really poor job of doing this.

Because they have not been rewarding the athletic skaters and as I said earlier I get that someone like Max is not a a complete skater but Brown isn't either. I think though you can work with young skaters who have the jumps and package them/make them better presentation wise. Miki Ando is a two time world Champion/multi world medalist. Czisny is not.

USFSA said they would reward harder stuff last year but you can argue they could have put their money where there mouth was last year with Chen. The international judges rewarded him so then they hoped on the bandwagon.

And you didn't really answer my question. If sport is worth pursuing, then how can being number 8 in the world be bad, especially a year after a major injury? Especially when everyone ahead of you on that list is landing quads?

And speaking of quads and medals, how can you possibly know what Jason or anyone else will achieve in the future? You can't. Would you have predicted his skate at Nats in 2014?

You seem to put skaters into little boxes: worth investing in, not worth investing in. And forgive me, but I don't see how you can possibly be equipped to make that judgement.

As to the US legacy of champions and their responsibility to groom the ones most likely to achieve if, sorry, but a responsibility to whom? Figure skating fans? The nation? It's not like figure skating is state supported here. Parents pay. The only reason I can think of why USFS would want to groom champions is because more interest in the sport puts more money in their pockets.

 

[TontoK]

You don't think that saying that it doesn't matter if we have three spots is in itself nasty? There's subtext there: what you're really saying is that no one matters except for Nathan.

Also: somewhere you wrote essentially that you're fickle about what you like in figure skating; to paraphrase, that these days you're in the mood for muscular wow programs and not laybacks; that you used to like Jason but now he bores you.

It's not that you've said anything so nasty about a particular skater, but rather that you seemingly don't value anything about any skater beyond what they do for you - kind of like a steak versus chicken dinner.

I don't dispute anything you say I've written.

If we earn three spots, then great. But let's also not pretend that the state of US men's skating is such that there are three medal candidates fighting for those spots. I enjoy many skaters, including some whom I do not believe are Olympic caliber. I like Nathan, but he's certainly not the only American I like. I'm especially fond of a young skater from US Nats, Andrew Torgeshev. And I've always liked Max Aaron.

True, I used to really like Jason Brown. Not so much now. Maybe next year, I'll enjoy his skating more. Tastes change.

I'm not sure what I''m supposed to value about these skaters other than how much they entertain me. I suppose I'm glad they inspire people in a "world peace" sort of way, but I'm not one of those who pretend they're family or that we have some sort of special connection. I don't follow their twitters or post to their facebooks. I don't have posters on my walls or anything like that. I'd just like them to skate in a way that earns my admiration for their athleticism and artistry. That's not something out of the mainstream is it?

 

[FlattFan]

Cain/LeDuc are so terrible. They are terrible skaters individually. I don't know how they got the 4cc spot over Castelli/Tran. Whoever said they have so much promises don't realize that they have been around for a while and their record showed they are not good.

 

[FlattFan]

Disagree completely about Max. He too makes a sincere attempt to interpret the music he is skating to. In my strong opinion.

He does but it's awkward. And his costume doesn't help either. He should just land clean quads and have 2 quads in the SP, 4-5 quads in the LP. Those other guys can't beat him that much on PCS. He is too inconsistent for a basic PCS skater.

 

[bekalc]

You don't think that saying that it doesn't matter if we have three spots is in itself nasty? There's subtext there: what you're really saying is that no one matters except for Nathan.

Also: somewhere you wrote essentially that you're fickle about what you like in figure skating; to paraphrase, that these days you're in the mood for muscular wow programs and not laybacks; that you used to like Jason but now he bores you.

It's not that you've said anything so nasty about a particular skater, but rather that you seemingly don't value anything about any skater beyond what they do for you - kind of like a steak versus chicken dinner.

And you didn't really answer my question. If sport is worth pursuing, then how can being number 8 in the world be bad, especially a year after a major injury? Especially when everyone ahead of you on that list is landing quads?

And speaking of quads and medals, how can you possibly know what Jason or anyone else will achieve in the future? You can't. Would you have predicted his skate at Nats in 2014?

You seem to put skaters into little boxes: worth investing in, not worth investing in. And forgive me, but I don't see how you can possibly be equipped to make that judgement.



As to the US legacy of champions and their responsibility to groom the ones most likely to achieve if, sorry, but a responsibility to whom? Figure skating fans? The nation? It's not like figure skating is state supported here. Parents pay. The only reason I can think of why USFS would want to groom champions is because more interest in the sport puts more money in their pockets.

First of all you don't think USFSA invests in skaters. This is a political sport, and so federation support does matter, and skaters at the sport, do get at least some funding if they medal at Nationals etc. Jason was not top two at nationals-so he was placed on the team.

I agree with looking at other results but I don't think top 8 season best is a huge thing to write home about. I don't think they were necessarily wrong, but its not a huge accomplishment as to bypass nationals. Especially over a younger skater who frankly has not had the same opportunities. And that's why I keep on mentioning it. Because we are talking about bypassing nationals. And I agree with bypassing in the case of a Wagner for Sochi because Wagner medaled at the GPF that year did really well at Worlds. But Jason had one good event this season, one not so good event and doesn't have content.

So in that circumstance I am not a fan of bypassing Nationals.

As for what Jason will accomplish in the future. I would love to be proven wrong. But Jason is 22 and he has yet to master a quad not one. He's not young in the sport. Most of the men who master the quad, they have mastered at least one or two well before his age. I suspect its one thing to be able to do one and then add in others. But to not be able to do one? When you others doing multiple types of ones.

Not everyone is able to do a quad. By all accounts Jason is a hard worker, so I don't think its a matter of not trying.

I would love to be proven wrong about him, but I think when it comes to political support etc. The USFSA would be foolish to not wonder if Jason will ever be able to compete with the top men.

And once again seasonal best does not make you top 8 in the world. They are all not competiting at same competition. And as I said earlier especially with the injuries there is a LOT of men who can finish ahead of him.

IF the best USA could was 8th that's one thing but they have men coming up who are better technically and its foolish for them not to promote them.


So what I am saying is USFSA bypassed Nationals. For a guy who is technically well below the other top men. That its very much a gamble because with Brown your relying on other mistakes. Jason is not in full control of his fate at Worlds.

And then you also by doing this lose the opportunity of given a young skater an opportunity to compete under pressure and grow in that way.

 

[snowflake]

I am among those who think US fed should have waited until after 4cc/Bavarian to name their men for worlds.

Anyway, Vincent and Jason have still to skate their free programs tomorrow. All the best to both! Whatever happens Jason and Nathan are chosen and have time to train for worlds. If one of them or both can’t go US has 3 great alternates:

Alternate 1 – Vincent Zhou (if he gets the minimum tech for free: 64)
Alternate 2 – Grant Hochstein
Alternate 3 – Max Aaron

 

[karne]

So what I am saying is USFSA bypassed Nationals. For a guy who is technically well below the other top men. That its very much a gamble because with Brown your relying on other mistakes. Jason is not in full control of his fate at Worlds.

And then you also by doing this lose the opportunity of given a young skater an opportunity to compete under pressure and grow in that way.

No, they didn't. They chose the top two ELIGIBLE skaters for Worlds. You can argue this til the cows come home, but VINCENT WAS NOT ELIGIBLE FOR WORLDS AT NATIONALS. USFS, WISELY, chose not to take for granted that he would get them.

Giving "a young skater an opportunity to compete under pressure and grow" is fine - in ANY OTHER YEAR. NOT the year the Olympic spots are decided and NOT when his teammate will be a Worlds debutante also!

 

[Mathman]

Cain/LeDuc are so terrible. They are terrible skaters individually. I don't know how they got the 4cc spot over Castelli/Tran. Whoever said they have so much promises don't realize that they have been around for a while and their record showed they are not good.

Aww, and they say such nice things about you.

 

[FlattFan]

Aww, and they say such nice things about you.

Doesnt matter how nice they are. The problem is the USFS gave them undeserved spot over C/L. Is it fair even if they are the nicest persons on earth?

 

[FlattFan]

Mariah should stay home. Mirai should get the spot for world. This is why it's stupid to name the team 2 months before the actual event.

 

[Ziotic]

Why leave Mariah home, she's out scored Karen in every completion this season?? Who cares that Karen won nationals, she is clearly not getting any international love.

 

[moriel]

Mariah should stay home. Mirai should get the spot for world. This is why it's stupid to name the team 2 months before the actual event.

Tricky and unfair to change the team because of 1 good skate.

 

[karne]

Tricky and unfair to change the team because of 1 good skate.

ITA. Or conversely, one bad skate. None of the US ladies except Ashley are bastions of consistency.

 

[andromache]

Mariah should stay home. Mirai should get the spot for world. This is why it's stupid to name the team 2 months before the actual event.

Substitute Karen for Mariah in this scenario and I would likely agree.

But Mirai had the chance to easily medal at Nationals (possibly even win) and she bombed. Choked.

Also, let's remember that success/a lack thereof at 4CCs doesn't equal success at Worlds, especially for ladies. Satoko and Mirai did well last year - Gracie beat both at Worlds. Polina won 2 years ago - beat by Gracie and Satoko at Worlds.

It's a tricky event to peak at, it seems.

 

[shyne]

ITA. Or conversely, one bad skate. None of the US ladies except Ashley are bastions of consistency.

Ashley is in the hands of the tech panel. She is far from consistent.

 

[breadstal]

Ashley, Mirai, Mariah for Worlds tbh.

 

[frida80]

USFS is a very inflexible about their rules. The world team will stay the same for better or worse.

 

[Jammers]

The fact is no combination most likely is going to help keep that 3rd spot for the US. Karen,Mirai and Mariah are all too inconsistent to be trusted. The only way the 3rd spot was going to be kept was if Gracie had been in fighting shape this season because even as inconsistent as she can be she generally skates good enough at Worlds to make the top 5 even with mistakes which the other 3 girls aren't good enough to make and stay anywhere near the top 8.