US Team: 4CCs and Worlds (updated)

[drivingmissdaisy]

Idk, I understand and sometimes support the "experience" argument, especially in regards to allowing new skaters to get some high-pressure experience under their belts, but sometimes I do think it is a little overrated.

I get what you're saying. In Jason's case, though, he has consistently scored in the ~250 range for several seasons. I'm a bit more confident in his ability to replicate that score than an untested skater, or even an experienced skater whose scores fluctuate a bit more.

 

[Jammers]

That's not entirely true though. I'd say in general Evgenia's an outlier, for Russian skating and overall, when it comes to mental composure. Sotskova would be a more realistic person to use here; she had a good GP season, good Nationals and yet Masha kind of melted down during the Europeans. Considering Vincent hasn't had a good season at all, his PB is less than Jason's by quite a bit, he is yet to perform well at any Senior big event, I'd say it's a pretty good argument in terms of experience in this case.

He can show at JW that he's a good Junior and all that he has plus learn to handle the pressure because even there, it's big and I agree with you that Junior experience on that level is quite valuable. And yet still, by the time they hit Seniors, it may never translate into any significant success.

Vincent didn't have a terrible year on the JGP. He medaled at both of his events and his total score was better then at least two of the skaters that made the JGP final but he was unlucky that he faced tougher competition then those skaters.

 

[Yatagarasu]

Vincent didn't have a terrible year on the JGP. He medaled at both of his events and his total score was better then at least two of the skaters that made the JGP final but he was unlucky that he faced tougher competition then those skaters.

I didn't say it was terrible, I said not good and I stand by that. You can call it unlucky he faced tougher competition in those events but let me ask you, if that is 'unlucky', then what are we to call the competition he would be facing at the WC? With 3 Olympics spots as the stakes.

 

[Skater Boy]

They also granted a Worlds spot for Denney (Caydee, Haven's sister) and Coughlin in 2013 when they did not compete at Nationals. They ended up not taking it cause she wasn't fully healed in time, but wanted to point out that the Knierms aren't the first.

true but just because it has happened before doesn't make it right. And it might say something about American pairs - not that strong but i do believe and thought this two seasons ago that Sk/K might be contenders - then they bombed worlds.

 

[ice coverage]

The Jason trashing really has to stop.  It was US Figure Skating's decision to send him.  He had no say.  To constantly criticize an elite athlete who we all knows works so hard is wrong.  I admire and respect what Nathan and Vincent can do but no one moves me in a skating competition more than Jason. ...

I wonder what Vincent think about his assignments? Has he said anything? ...

As someone who shares your respect for Vincent, I would add that the constant criticism of Vincent (from numerous voices all over GS) is equally wrong.

Vincent and Jason both are  hard-working elite athletes who did not ask to be put in the middle of controversy.

After winning the Bavarian Open, Vincent said on Instagram that he is looking forward to Junior Worlds.  He sounds excited (as he should be :agree, and I wish him the best of luck in Taipei :yay:.  Same to Krasnozhon and Torgashev.

---

...  Considering Vincent hasn't had a good season at all ...

Vincent didn't have a terrible year on the JGP. He medaled at both of his events and his total score was better then at least two of the skaters that made the JGP final but he was unlucky that he faced tougher competition then those skaters.

I didn't say it was terrible, I said not good and I stand by that. You can call it unlucky he faced tougher competition in those events but let me ask you, if that is 'unlucky', then what are we to call the competition he would be facing at the WC? With 3 Olympics spots as the stakes.

"Hasn't had a good season at all" is not fair to Vincent, IMO.
Vincent placed second at Nats, for crying out loud -- in addition to earning two JGP medals.  The sixth JGPF spot would have belonged to him if the first tie-breaker had been scores instead of placements.
What I would call the competition at Worlds is a clean slate for everyone (except for the use of world standings for start orders).  Doesn't really matter whether someone (such as Jason or Vincent) did not qualify for the GPF or JGPF.

 

[ice coverage]

Apparently something new this year from USFS is this week's Junior Worlds camp -- for the announced team and alternates .

(Men and ladies, at least.)

 

[frida80]

Apparently something new this year from USFS is this week's Junior Worlds camp -- for the announced team and alternates .

(Men and ladies, at least.)

I saw that too! Finally! Hope it helps them. I assume Dance and Pairs met at a different time or location. I can't imagine they wouldn't send all their junior competitors. Here's a pic of the single competitors and the alternates.

https://instagram.com/p/BRE11MTD0vF/

 

[ice coverage]

I saw that too! Finally! Hope it helps them. I assume Dance and Pairs met at a different time or location. I can't imagine they wouldn't send all their junior competitors. Here's a pic of the single competitors and the alternates.

https://instagram.com/p/BRE11MTD0vF/

I hope so too -- re something separate for pairs and dancers.

Side notes:

I am sorry that Kevin Shum was not in Camden's photo.  I have a feeling that Kevin could not afford to miss his classes at MIT??

ETA (on Mar 3):

Happy to see that Kevin Shum was at the camp after all:

https://twitter.com/MJMSkating/status/836745060083453952 (Feb 28)​

Hat tip to Sylvia on FSU for mentioning this tweet.

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/in...017-articles-latest-news.100751/#post-5023700​

Torgashev, Zhou, and Pulkinen were travel buddies from Denver to Chicago for the camp -- so my guess is that Andrew had  been back in Colorado Springs yet again ... for another round of altitude training and assistance from the OTC??
(And Vincent clearly continues to spend a lot of time in Colorado.)​

 

[Tahuu]

Since it seems like everyone else on the forum has given their opinion of who should be on the world team, I'll give my two cents...
I think the correct people are going. Jason may not be able to match many of his competitors in terms of jumps but they aren't going to all go clean and so he'll place well on the basis of his PCS. If Nathan can make the podium (and he should without difficulty) I think the US will secure three spots. Now I think Jason has an up hill battle for one of those spots next year but that's another topic.
For the ladies, I love Mirai but she didn't deliver at nationals, she and Bell are both inconsistent so since Bell was named to the team bars on her bronze, she should go. Karen should not even be in question, the national champ should automatically go, no matter how inconsistent she is. Winning nationals should mean something and have the prize of a world spot attached, if not why even have nationals.

Jason's selection to the world team is understandable, but he may not be able to see the heel of Vincent's skating boot next year.

 

[karne]

Jason's selection to the world team is understandable, but he may not be able to see the heel of Vincent's skating boot next year.

Or he may overtake him, since it's not like Vincent has shown that a) he can get the quads called rotated outside the US consistently and b) that he can be a consistent competitor.

 

[FlattFan]

The Jason trashing really has to stop. It was US Figure Skating's decision to send him. He had no say. To constantly criticize an elite athlete who we all knows works so hard is wrong. I admire and respect what Nathan and Vincent can do but no one moves me in a skating competition more than Jason.
I was sitting next to a lovely Japanese woman at Skate America this year who was clearly there for Shoma. After Jason's performance she turned to me and said she couldn't stop crying he was so beautiful. That is art and sport.
Let's not forget Riverdance which brought US skating to a new place due to the viral video.
I think both our male skaters will put out their best at Worlds and we will be in for an exciting season next year.

I don't see any Jason trashing. People only pointed out how Vincent placed above Jason at Nationals and some how got overlooked. He had no say in the team selection, that's true. But that didn't stop his team and him to petition to put him on the team last year, did it.
Just want to point out how ridiculous Jason's vocal fans have been. If they had acknowledged that he undeservedly got the spot over Vincent, it wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

 

[Isabel_O'Reilly]

But Vincent was ineligible for for both Worlds and 4CC at the time of the selection. People have repeated this ad nauseum. If he had the TES minimums required for 4CC and was passed over then there could be an argument that maybe Vincent should have gotten the spot. Since he was ineligible the spot goes to the next eligible skater who fulfills the goals of the team. It's no different than if he was ineligible due to age. The US could not have put him up for the spot at 4CC. Not they chose not to they could not have.

 

[Mrs. P]

But Vincent was ineligible for for both Worlds and 4CC at the time of the selection. People have repeated this ad nauseum. If he had the TES minimums required for 4CC and was passed over then there could be an argument that maybe Vincent should have gotten the spot. Since he was ineligible the spot goes to the next eligible skater who fulfills the goals of the team. It's no different than if he was ineligible due to age. The US could not have put him up for the spot at 4CC. Not they chose not to they could not have.

The argument, however, is the only reason that was the case was a new rule that required senior-level TES scores to fulfill the Worlds requirement. And he easily did so at Bavarian Open. Under the old system, his TES from his junior comps would have been more than sufficient.

I think some feel that they should have waited for Bavarian Open before making Worlds Team selection.

I'm not convinced that Vincent's lack of TES was THE reason he was passed over, to be honest. Cause I think it would have been pretty easy to assume that Vincent would have received the TES at Bavarian Open based on his past (junior-level) scores. (Though it certainly made Jason's selection easier to make, I guess).

 

[NanaPat]

I don't see any Jason trashing. People only pointed out how Vincent placed above Jason at Nationals and some how got overlooked. He had no say in the team selection, that's true. But that didn't stop his team and him to petition to put him on the team last year, did it.
Just want to point out how ridiculous Jason's vocal fans have been. If they had acknowledged that he undeservedly got the spot over Vincent, it wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

If only nationals count in naming the world team, then Jason's selection is "undeserved". If other criteria count (and USFS says they do!), then Jason's selection is very appropriate and very much deserved.

 

[concorde]

The argument, however, is the only reason that was the case was a new rule that required senior-level TES scores to fulfill the Worlds requirement. And he easily did so at Bavarian Open. Under the old system, his TES from his junior comps would have been more than sufficient.

I think some feel that they should have waited for Bavarian Open before making Worlds Team selection.

I'm not convinced that Vincent's lack of TES was the reason he was passed over, to be honest. Cause I think it would have been pretty easy to assume that Vincent would have received the TES at Bavarian Open based on his past (junior-level) scores.

That has always been my issue compounded by the fact that Jason is injured with no guarantee he will be in peak form by Worlds. I don't think getting a third spot is as much a "lock" as some here think is.

 

[Tahuu]

Or he may overtake him, since it's not like Vincent has shown that a) he can get the quads called rotated outside the US consistently and b) that he can be a consistent competitor.

Yes, Jason is a consistent competitor, since when, 2013, at what, 242+/-12. "who can beat that?" to quote his team.

Four Continents Championships 2017 245.85
NHK Trophy 2016 218.47
Skate America 2016 268.38
U.S. International Figure Skating Classic 2016 254.04
Lombardia Trophy 2016 256.49
Ice Challenge 2015 240.65
Skate America 2015 238.47
23rd Ondrej Nepela Trophy 239.37
World Team Trophy 2015 263.17
World Championship 2015 248.29
Four Continents Championships 2015 243.21
Cup of Russia 2014 235.56
Skate America 2014 234.17
Nebelhorn Trophy 2014 237.17
Olympics 2014 238.37
Trophee Eric Bompard 2013 243.09
Skate America 2013 231.03
Nebelhorn Trophy 2013 228.43

 

[ice coverage]

... It's no different than if he was ineligible due to age. ...

It is absolutely different from ineligibility due to age, which would/should stop USFS from naming a skater as an alternate in the first place.

Nothing a skater can do btwn Nats and World to overcome ineligibility due to age.

But it is entirely possible before Worlds for an alternate to overcome a lack of TES minimums -- as Caroline Zhang and Vincent both have shown.

---

... I'm not convinced that Vincent's lack of TES was THE reason he was passed over, to be honest. Cause I think it would have been pretty easy to assume that Vincent would have received the TES at Bavarian Open based on his past (junior-level) scores. ...

:agree: My two cents are that I would go even further and say that it seems very unlikely to me that TES minimums played any role in the choice of USFS to go with Jason.
So Vincent's now-proven success at getting the TES minimums would not be any reason for USFS to change its decision, IMO.

 

[FlattFan]

But Vincent was ineligible for for both Worlds and 4CC at the time of the selection. People have repeated this ad nauseum. If he had the TES minimums required for 4CC and was passed over then there could be an argument that maybe Vincent should have gotten the spot. Since he was ineligible the spot goes to the next eligible skater who fulfills the goals of the team. It's no different than if he was ineligible due to age. The US could not have put him up for the spot at 4CC. Not they chose not to they could not have.

Your argument would make more sense if Vincent isn't #1 alternate. So technically, he wasn't "ineligible"
Plus, they selected skaters who didn't meet qualifications before. So definitely wasn't that.

 

[FlattFan]

If only nationals count in naming the world team, then Jason's selection is "undeserved". If other criteria count (and USFS says they do!), then Jason's selection is very appropriate and very much deserved.

But Jason was in a downward path with the injury. His score at NHK, the most recent competition, is not good.
If you want to take the closest 2 international events, 4cc vs. Bavarian Open, Vincent is doing better as well. What other criteria? something he's done a few years ago? That's why people have problem. Look to the future, not in the past.

 

[Isabel_O'Reilly]

The argument, however, is the only reason that was the case was a new rule that required senior-level TES scores to fulfill the Worlds requirement. And he easily did so at Bavarian Open. Under the old system, his TES from his junior comps would have been more than sufficient.

I think some feel that they should have waited for Bavarian Open before making Worlds Team selection.

I'm not convinced that Vincent's lack of TES was THE reason he was passed over, to be honest. Cause I think it would have been pretty easy to assume that Vincent would have received the TES at Bavarian Open based on his past (junior-level) scores. (Though it certainly made Jason's selection easier to make, I guess).

I thought the rule about Senior TES minimums for Senior competitions is an ISU rule and not a USFA rule?

Regarding the selection time: Has the US ever waited beyond the usual selection time of the team to allow a person who was ineligible by ISU rules the chance to earn eligibility when the next ranked skater is not only eligible but fulfills the criteria for being selected? Insisting that the US should have made an exception for a brand new senior skater is what would be undeserved.

Waiting until after the Bavarian Open to name the Worlds team would be impossible and unfair to all the other disciplines and singling out the men's discipline as the only one to be named after that competition would ruin the training of all three possibilities.

Naming Jason to the 4CC team and announcing that Vincent would be on the World team if he achieved the minimums might seem like a fairer situation but would not only still put both Jason and Vincent in limbo but also put more pressure on Vincent at the Bavarian Open. This is what I first thought when I read this thread back in January: If Vincent is named to the World team provissionally will he feel so much pressure that he is unable to get the minimums? The way it is now(after Nationals) he is not on the team but if he gets the minimums and Jason has to withdraw he will be perfectly poised to compete.

As this season has proved in every discipline ice is slippery. Assuming the Vincent would have still achieved the minimums easily is not a criteria for selection. The USFA had to make a decision after Nationals and after Nationals Jason was unquestionably the second skater who was eligible.