USFS Announces Worlds team

[karne]

Thats really unusual. Usually its 1years for most federations. Why isn't Yaro competing for Ukraine though - he could go to the 2022 olympics for Ukraine...

My understanding is that the Ukrainian fed provides conditions that many skaters find long-term untenable and that the situation is highly political, so there are no guarantees.

That seems strange. Is he not the reigning Worlds bronze medalist?

That is totally irrelevant in the context of this discussion.

That happened at Worlds 2019. It has been two years since that event and Zhou has not attained the minimums at a competition during that time. Therefore, he cannot go.

Here is Jackie’s twit. I can’t remember where Zhou competed after Japan Open, but somehow it didn’t give him intl minimum on his free skate.

And yes, he is acting bronze medalist, but because he came back for Nationals and was going to WC2020, he basically sacrificed a year of skating for his college at an unfortunate moment

edit: apparently, his qualifier was US Classic, and he had a below min technical Free there.

https://twitter.com/rockerskating/status/1350997857189425154?s=20

Basically, after 2019 Worlds, Zhou only did Japan Open (which doesn't count for minimums) and US Classic, where he blew his free skate and didn't meet the minimum FS score.

By his own choice Zhou then did not attend his GP events. He competed at US Nationals, but then by his own choice did not go to 4CC.

The minimums do not last forever. They do expire.

It's almost inconceivable that the ISU would not recognize the scores from Skate America, since it was an ISU event. And technically, with Messing competing (and medaling) there, it was an international event, and not a domestic one.

It is not inconcievable at all and in fact it would be a disgrace if the ISU recognised the scores from Skate America (particularly since that would also mean recognising the scores from Rostelecom Cup, NHK Trophy and Cup of China - or I hope you weren't suggesting special treatment for Skate America?).

There are specific requirements. One "international skater" present does not make an event an international for ISU purposes, else Australia would host multiple internationals every year!

The requirements are not just from the competitors, either (IIRC they must be from five different countries, not two). The requirements are also on the panels - five different countries must be represented to count, for a very good reason.

But, I don't think there is any solid argument to be made that Vincent would not have met the minimum World standard at Skate America with ANY panel, all American or not. I still believe the argument is moot. The ISU is not going to disqualify scores from their own GP events.

Is there? Because he didn't. He had a chance at the US Classic and he blew it. The fact he hasn't competed anywhere else other than US Nats since is his fault, nobody else's.

Wait, we're back to 2017 again, and once again it's people wanting to make exceptions and excuses for Vincent Zhou. How fun.

 

[treblemakerem]

Is there? Because he didn't. He had a chance at the US Classic and he blew it. The fact he hasn't competed anywhere else other than US Nats since is his fault, nobody else's.

Wait, we're back to 2017 again, and once again it's people wanting to make exceptions and excuses for Vincent Zhou. How fun.

Are you serious? It’s not his fault. He couldn’t possibly foresee worlds getting canceled and not being able to do international competitions this year. No one expected this to happen.
If worlds happens they need to make some allowance for the situation right now. I’m not sure what that is whether it’s the scores from the gps or considering national scores or something else. Obviously for this year only. It’s not the skaters’ faults they haven’t been able to do international competitions. Knierim/Frazier don’t have minimums either do they?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I saw that Zhou might also have troubles with qualifying score due to him almost not competing last year internationally. I hope this is not true because this is such a crazy year... and, yes, I know other people managed to compete and stuff but, but, but....

Yep, Zhou has an asterisk by his name too in the official announcement, that wasn't included in OP's post in this thread.

 

[Andrea82]

It's almost inconceivable that the ISU would not recognize the scores from Skate America, since it was an ISU event. And technically, with Messing competing (and medaling) there, it was an international event, and not a domestic one.

Skate America didn't meet the requirements in terms of panel of judges for scores to be recognized for minimum scores
The requirements for international competitions to be valid to achieve minimum TES are

Skaters from at least 2 different Federations should compete

Technical controller, technical specialist and assistant technical specialist must come from 3 different Federations. They must have at least international status. However, in exceptional circumstances, a national specialist is allowed

The panel of judges must consist in at least 5 judges (referee can act as one of judges). No Federations can have a majority of judges in the panel (so 2 out of 5 is ok but not 3). They must have at least international status. However, in exceptional circumstances, a national judge is allowed

The only competitions which met the requirements this season are

Nebelhorn
Budapest Trophy
Minsk Ice Star (for Single and Ladies but not for Pairs and Dance because only Belarusians were entered)
Santa Claus Cup (but not for Dance as only Germans entered)
NRW Autumn Trophy (but not for Dance as TC and TS were both Germans)
Minsk Winter Star (but not Pairs as there was only a Belarus pair)

The sum up of currently valid TES scores is here

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/tes/stsmjustsen.htm

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/tes/stsljustsen.htm

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/tes/stspjustsen.htm

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/tes/stsdjustsen.htm

However, at the last ISU Council meeting (December) it was agreed to draft more flexibile rules in terms of minimum TES for this season:
Considering the limited number of International Figure Skating Competitions during the ongoing season 2020/21 and consequently limited opportunities to achieve the Minimum Total Element Scores, the ISU Council exceptionally agreed to adjust the procedure for obtaining the Minimum Total Elements Scores for the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021 by making it more flexible. An ISU Communication including the relevant details will be published in due course.

 

[Lzbee]

Is there? Because he didn't. He had a chance at the US Classic and he blew it. The fact he hasn't competed anywhere else other than US Nats since is his fault, nobody else's.

Wait, we're back to 2017 again, and once again it's people wanting to make exceptions and excuses for Vincent Zhou. How fun.

I'm out of the loop, what happened in 2017? You're reaction is very strong considering 2020 has been an unprecedented year for everyone...?

 

[ice coverage]

I'm out of the loop, what happened in 2017? ...

I know you are not the one who brought it up, but my response to your question would be:

At this point, nothing is to be gained by revisiting/rehashing what happened in 2017.

Suffice it to say that that there could be a *lot* of variation in how different people would characterize what happened in 2017. With the range of opinions basically falling into at least three different points of view.

I think the only thing on which everyone would agree is that the debate on GS at the time was contentious and unpleasant.​

2020 has been an unprecedented year for everyone...?

Yes, most definitely.

 

[Amei]

Skate America didn't meet the requirements in terms of panel of judges for scores to be recognized for minimum scores
The requirements for international competitions to be valid to achieve minimum TES are

Skaters from at least 2 different Federations should compete

Technical controller, technical specialist and assistant technical specialist must come from 3 different Federations. They must have at least international status. However, in exceptional circumstances, a national specialist is allowed

The panel of judges must consist in at least 5 judges (referee can act as one of judges). No Federations can have a majority of judges in the panel (so 2 out of 5 is ok but not 3). They must have at least international status. However, in exceptional circumstances, a national judge is allowed

The only competitions which met the requirements this season are

Nebelhorn
Budapest Trophy
Minsk Ice Star (for Single and Ladies but not for Pairs and Dance because only Belarusians were entered)
Santa Claus Cup (but not for Dance as only Germans entered)
NRW Autumn Trophy (but not for Dance as TC and TS were both Germans)
Minsk Winter Star (but not Pairs as there was only a Belarus pair)

The sum up of currently valid TES scores is here

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/tes/stsmjustsen.htm

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/tes/stsljustsen.htm

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/tes/stspjustsen.htm

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/tes/stsdjustsen.htm

However, at the last ISU Council meeting (December) it was agreed to draft more flexibile rules in terms of minimum TES for this season:
Considering the limited number of International Figure Skating Competitions during the ongoing season 2020/21 and consequently limited opportunities to achieve the Minimum Total Element Scores, the ISU Council exceptionally agreed to adjust the procedure for obtaining the Minimum Total Elements Scores for the ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2021 by making it more flexible. An ISU Communication including the relevant details will be published in due course.

IMO - they should let the feds send whoever they want (within their allotted number of skaters) if someone is not up to the grade then that decision to send that skater will come back to haunt that Fed later on, maybe decrease the number of skaters that move onto the FS if the SP is looking abysmal.

 

[moonvine]

IMO - they should let the feds send whoever they want (within their allotted number of skaters) if someone is not up to the grade then that decision to send that skater will come back to haunt that Fed later on, maybe decrease the number of skaters that move onto the FS if the SP is looking abysmal.

I agree.

 

[karne]

Are you serious? It’s not his fault. He couldn’t possibly foresee worlds getting canceled and not being able to do international competitions this year. No one expected this to happen.

It is 100% his fault that between 2019 Worlds and 2020 Worlds he only competed twice (three times if you count Japan Open, which you don't). It is 100% his fault that only one of those events was one at which he could earn minimums and it is 100% his fault that he did not earn them there.

Vincent had the same opportunity as everyone else on Team USA to compete on the Grand Prix, and he had the same opportunity as Nathan and Jason and co to go to 4CC. He chose not to do either. No, he couldn't have foreseen the pandemic. But the lack of TES minimums was a 100% foreseeable problem and it is a problem largely of his own making. What if he had got injured at the start of the 2020-2021 season and had missed his GPs? He'd be in the same spot.

IMO - they should let the feds send whoever they want (within their allotted number of skaters) if someone is not up to the grade then that decision to send that skater will come back to haunt that Fed later on, maybe decrease the number of skaters that move onto the FS if the SP is looking abysmal.

You do realise that every fed is allotted at least one? You don't "earn" 1 spot, every fed starts with 1. So if they allow everyone who can to send one with no regard to TES minimums, then the Worlds fields might actually get bigger, which during a pandemic seems...counterproductive.

 

[aka_gerbil]

When Vincent decided to focus on college the early part of last season, he could not have foreseen a pandemic was coming that would keep him from going to worlds in 2020 and from there not being a normal international season this fall to get a fresh batch of minimums for 2021 worlds.... that might not happen.

If you asked Vincent or anyone else in Fall 2019 if they would have plenty of chances to earn minimums for 2021 worlds, they would have says yes because NO ONE saw this pandemic coming that ground everything to a halt. If worlds had happened last year, he’d have gotten the minimums for this year.... but he didn’t get to compete at worlds because of the pandemic.

 

[draqq]

Given the circumstances, I think exceptions should be made for technical minimums. This Worlds, if it even happens, has enough obstacles without adding another one in a skating season where getting those tech mins has been extremely difficult, not just for Vincent but for many skaters from among all countries.

 

[Penny]

I'm just going to go ahead and assume you mean 3A because a solo 3T ain't gonna do diddly.

Of course. Sorry.

 

[Skater Boy]

I guess the question is - is there a worlds.

 

[Tahuu]

We'll see if there will be a decision on Worlds at ISU Council meeting next week on January 28, 2021. My feeling is it will be moving forward as planned.

 

[brightphoton]

I'm out of the loop, what happened in 2017? You're reaction is very strong considering 2020 has been an unprecedented year for everyone...?

Another poster answered with nothing but a long, snarky, and ultimately empty reply, so I'll fill you in.

In 2017, Vincent Zhou won the silver medal at national championships, 9 points over bronze medalist Jason Brown. This was before Nathan Chen became a rock star wunderkind, and the US only had 2 spots. The committee chose Nathan and Jason to send to Worlds, skipping over Vincent. Much booing and hissing.

Nathan did the same sort of thing he would repeat at the 2018 Olympics, messed up the short program, did a good long, ending up middle of top 10. Jason skated like typical quadless Jason and also got middle of top 10. Together, they squeaked by with 13 points and the men earned 3 spots.

2017 U.S. Figure Skating Championships - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Funny enough, at the 2019 championships, Vincent was on the other side of the situation. He finished lower than a newcomer, but was bumped up to the World team anyway. Everything came full circle. Except the 2019 World championship was cancelled. Unfortunately, Vincent had skipped the 2018/2019 international competitions due to college, the pandemic cancelled the 2019/2020 international events, and now he's missing his score minimums to go to 2020 Worlds.

But there won't even be a 2020 Worlds (probably?), so it's all moot.

 

[brightphoton]

Oh wait, it's 2021 already. Gahhhh. I'm on mobile so it's hard to edit, but move forward the dates by a year on my previous post

 

[ice coverage]

Another poster answered with nothing but a long, snarky, and ultimately empty reply, so I'll fill you in. ...

My reply to Lzbee was not "snarky" in the least.
I am the only one who had replied to her before you did, so you obviously were talking about me.

As I said, the GS discussion in 2017 was contentious, and there were at least three different viewpoints as to what should have determined how USFS made its decision between two skaters.
Four years after 2017, I think it is pointless to stir up another round of what was a very unpleasant disagreement among GS members.

The whole thing is water under the bridge. To give a balanced recap of the complicated factual circumstances in 2017 and of the ensuing GS discussion would have required a very long reply.
I purposely gave an "ultimately empty reply" -- which to me was and is preferable to an unfair oversimplification like yours.
A balanced recap would have explained the reasons why some firmly believed that the USFS decision in 2017 was not warranted and the reasons why others firmly believed that it was warranted.

 

[brightphoton]

It's not water under the bridge, it's the results of national competition, who our world's team was, and how they were chosen. Not to mention this sort of thing happens every year since ~2013 with the increased power of the committee, so potentially every year is going to be water under a bridge.

It's a disservice to new fans if they ask legitimate questions about our sport and get gatekeeping replies instead of actual information.

 

[ice coverage]

It's not water under the bridge, it's the results of national competition, who our world's team was, and how they were chosen. Not to mention this sort of thing happens every year since ~2013 with the increased power of the committee, so potentially every year is going to be water under a bridge.

It's a disservice to new fans if they ask legitimate questions about our sport and get gatekeeping replies instead of actual information.

It is a disservice to mislead any fans by oversimplifying a very complicated set of unique circumstances in 2017.

2017 and its unique circumstances regarding selection of the World team are water under the bridge.

The selection of the World team happens every year.
The full set of circumstances in 2017 does not happen every year.

(p.s. Lzbee has been a member of GS since 2016, so I do not think that s/he would fall into the category of "new" fans.)

 

[kirauza343]

If Worlds does happen I feel like they’ll have to do something about the tech minimums. Not necessarily because of someone like Vincent who competed in the last two seasons but didn’t meet the requirements but because there are skaters that haven’t had any chance to get those. Knierim/Frazier come to mind. They decisively won Nationals but as a brand new team they didn’t compete last year and as Americans there haven’t been/won’t be any international completions they can reasonably go to since they’ve all (correct me if I’m wrong) been in Europe.

Similarly, Audrey Shin (even though she’s an alternate) and other first year seniors that haven’t been able to compete at a senior level international event won’t either. And it’s not just an American problem: should Rino Matsuike or Muramoto/Takahashi be called up as alternates in the Japanese team they’d be in the same boat, since Japan announced at the beginning of the season that they weren’t sending skaters to challengers