"Waiting Your Turn"

[lil_icesk8er915]

I think that's kind of unfair. I kind of saw that happen with Jenny Kirk and AP. They both skated beautifully (esp. at nationals) and should've gotten higher marks. I was really mad when AP only got 4th at the ABC International Figure Skating Challenge!

 

[mzheng]

In a lot of ways, I like the judging in gymnastics over skating, because in gymnastics you do not have to wait your turn. You can have newcomers like Chellsie Memmel, Hollie Vise, and Carly Patterson win gold and other medals at their first seniorr Worlds. I never hear the commentators say that a gymnsatics routine was great, but that the gymnast was new to the scene and would have to wait their turn.

I guess this should be attributed to the CoP used in gymnastics. The system leave much less room for judges to manuplate as compared to current the system used in FS judging.

 

[Smiley0884]

I think that Sasha has it all over AP in almost every way and that the USFSA feels the same way. Sasha is a better skater. Period.

I don't think we can judge anything from Campbell's. Programs are brand new and the skaters are rusty.

And is that a reason for bias protocol judging? I was disgusted by the fact that AP was outrightly ROBBED of her spot on the world team. It may be your opinion that Sasha is a better skaterin every way ( except for the fact AP is capable of 7 triple programs ), and it is exactly that attituded that leads to the over hype and holding up of skaters, like Sasha. AP blatnatly outskated Sasha, and there could be a very good case for her to be put over Sarah as well. I'm sick of the judges giving Sasha chance after chance, only for her to blow it. AP has out skated sasha before, and only got credit for it once. Skating is 10% talent and 90% consistencey, obviously Sasha is lacking in the latter. Skating should be judged by what happens out on the ice, not based on hype or reputation, and AP got slighted, because of reputation, she should have been on that world team PERIOD. END OF STORY.

 

[Bynx]

And is that a reason for bias protocol judging? I was disgusted by the fact that AP was outrightly ROBBED of her spot on the world team. It may be your opinion that Sasha is a better skaterin every way ( except for the fact AP is capable of 7 triple programs ), and it is exactly that attituded that leads to the over hype and holding up of skaters, like Sasha. AP blatnatly outskated Sasha, and there could be a very good case for her to be put over Sarah as well. I'm sick of the judges giving Sasha chance after chance, only for her to blow it. AP has out skated sasha before, and only got credit for it once. Skating is 10% talent and 90% consistencey, obviously Sasha is lacking in the latter. Skating should be judged by what happens out on the ice, not based on hype or reputation, and AP got slighted, because of reputation, she should have been on that world team PERIOD. END OF STORY.

I totally agree with your setiments!
AP should've w/o question been the third member on that team.
She skated was and her artistry while not as flashy as Sasha's was very soft and elegant.

That being said however, I see why the judges gave it to Sasha over AP. It's all about getting as many medals as possible and forming the best team that is most likely to do that. Sasha has more experience and has been a favorite of the national/international judges from the start. The national judges knew no matter how well AP skated she wouldn't get the marks she deserved. If she had skated well, she'd have been held down, if she had skated poorly, she would've been buried.

I think medals are the name of the game and they no what the international panel is more likely to go for and thus they picked Sasha who if skates well get high marks and if she doesn't skate well, the judges have shown they won't be too harsh one her.

They have their favorites,
and right now AP is not one of them yet.

I have faith that AP will get her just due.

 

[mzheng]

I agree those who said AP beat Sasha LP at Nats and a case can be made for AP also beat Sarah at LP at Nats. But if you take into account of the SP AP falled at SP and she was also got held up in SP. But again Sarah got held up in SP as well. It was Kirk and may be some of others who got held down on SP. Really beside Michelle got a clear win and cut. No other top lady (Sarah, Sasha, AP, Kirk, etc) really skated 2 clean in Nats.

So in the case can go either way with the current judge system, judge always subconciousely go with the reputation. Like some one said in another thread, with CoP, if you instrested you can go element by element, point by point to caculate who should win. Right now most judges and fans go first to how many jumps, is there an 3/3, is there any fall when considering the tech marks.

 

[BravesSkateFan]

That being said however, I see why the judges gave it to Sasha over AP. It's all about getting as many medals as possible and forming the best team that is most likely to do that. Sasha has more experience and has been a favorite of the national/international judges from the start. The national judges knew no matter how well AP skated she wouldn't get the marks she deserved. If she had skated well, she'd have been held down, if she had skated poorly, she would've been buried.

But that's just the problem. If judging were fair the US judges wouldn't HAVE to worry about who the intl judges liked becuase marks would be based soley on how someone skated that night, not on reputation.

I always wondered if it would be any solution to make the picks for the Worlds team independent of your placement at Nats. Then perhaps it would keep the judges from holding up a skater in order to put them on the world team. The picks for the World team could be based on a number of factors including, placement at Nats, how you have performed during the current season, and past placements at Words. I'm not sure if its a good idea or not, but this way the people who skate best at Nats will be placed fairly, and also the country won't be forced to send skaters to Worlds who may have just won becasue everyone else screwed up or something.

 

[SkateFan4Life]

My "Huh?" comment at the end of my post was really a sardonic comment. Guys, I've been a figure skating fan for several decades, and I am very much aware of the "waiting your turn" mindset that permeates this sport.

When compulsory school figures were part of the competition, the judges could be counted on to use that phase as the "wait your turn" assignment of low marks. There are so many examples of wonderfully young, talented singles skaters who appeared at Worlds and/or Olympics for the first time and were sandblasted by the judges in the school figures. Just one example is the 1984 Winter Olympics. Tiffany Chin was the 16-year-old very talented American who had won the silver medal at Nationals (she had outstkated Rosalyn Sumners, but Roz was the reigning World and US champion so that was a bit of the 'wait your turn' situation as well). Tiffany came to the Olympics and skated solid school figures. Where did the judges place her? 12th!! Tiffany then placed 2nd in the short program and 3rd in the long program and finished fourth, just missing the podium. Had it not been for the school figures and/or if the judges had marked Tiffany's figures according to what she actually skated and not by her "new kid of the block" label -- Miss Chin would most likely have won a medal at the 1984 Olympics.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

To all you guys who thought AP over SC last year Nats, I do agree. But the USFSA has its mindset on the Worlds and it chooses who will place at Nats (so that they don't have to knock someone out of the worlds, if the judges do not come up with their choices).

In 2003, the USFSA was thinking like so many others that it was the Year of Sasha (I know I was). She was not at her best THAT night (or day). The judges held her up. They had no choice, or face the ire of the USFSA for further judging. The Olympic Champ and the ever popular MK would also be held up if they had that bad hair day. But that's the way the Nats are judged. The 3 picks by the USFSA, will prevail unless there is a noticeable medltdown of one.

I believe AP will be the one included with SC and MK this coming Nats. Jenny has to wait for a complete melt down of one of them at this Nats.

I also believe similar circumstances will prevail at the Japanese Nats. The Russians have IS and ES as definite and one place is open, probably for Nelidina.

Enjoy Nats but don't take them as definitive competitions, imo.

Joe

 

[mzheng]

I always wondered if it would be any solution to make the picks for the Worlds team independent of your placement at Nats. Then perhaps it would keep the judges from holding up a skater in order to put them on the world team. The picks for the World team could be based on a number of factors including, placement at Nats, how you have performed during the current season, and past placements at Words. I'm not sure if its a good idea or not, but this way the people who skate best at Nats will be placed fairly, and also the country won't be forced to send skaters to Worlds who may have just won becasue everyone else screwed up or something.

Actually as I understand by the rule only the Nat Champ is garanteed for a World's team slot. The other two can be choose by the USFSA whoever they like. I think the problems on in those judges who subconciously under the influence of whatever USFSA is promoted at the moment.

 

[Mathman]

Actually as I understand by the rule only the Nat Champ is garanteed for a World's team slot. The other two can be choose by the USFSA whoever they like.

This is the rule, but in practice the USFSA always, except under very unusual circumstances, as in 1994, sends the skaters who finished 1, 2, 3 at Nationals. They do this expressly to avoid the appearance of impropriety, favoritism and smoke-filled-backroom deals.

Other skating federations, especially in Europe, I believe do take into account the entire season, sometimes even having a "skate-off" between the leading contenders.

Mathman

 

[hockeyfan228]

Other skating federations, especially in Europe, I believe do take into account the entire season, sometimes even having a "skate-off" between the leading contenders.

Mathman

The German Federation did a skate-off this year to determine the two places on the Men's team.

 

[RealtorGal]

I agree with the assessment that the U.S. national judges are trying to select the strongest World TEAM in judging nationals. Sasha was the lone U.S. force on the GP circuit this year, winning all her events but one (but winning a silver there), including the GP finals. As such, judges know that Sasha is respected, if not favored by intl. judges.

On the other hand, AP embarrassed herself and the U.S. with that ridiculous visa debacle. No matter which way you slice it, it was ultimately her responsibility to ensure proper documentation. She not only cost herself a medal, she cost the U.S. a second spot at Cup of Russia. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a factor in the judging at nats.

 

[kemy]

Tru...AP should have placed higher in the LP at Nationals, BUT I think she should have been placed uch lower in the SP.

 

[Mathman]

I wouldn't be surprised if that was a factor in the judging at nats.

Oh, I hope not. I was satisfied with Sasha's placement over Ann Patrice on the basis of her performance, although AP skated very well, too.

"I like ice cream" -- Kemy

Welcome to Golden Skate, Kemy. But watch out -- some one will say that ice cream has sloppy edges.

Mathman

 

[Smiley0884]

The thing is they could have placed AP over sasha, and still named sasha to the world team. This is the exact thing that's wrong with figure skating. AP losing her visa shouldn't matter at all, what happens on the ice should matter! We all sit here and whine about the judging, but when someone you likes gets held up it's ok? I much prefer sasha's skating to AP's but I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's ok to hold someone up. I don't care what Sasha has done to "prove herself" in the past. Fact is she didn't prove herself when it mattered most, at nationals or at worlds.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Smiley - I'm impressed with your power of conviction. Not many fans of a skater would say such things. Cheers!

Joe

 

[SkateFan4Life]

Yet, sometimes judges do not play the "Wait your turn" game and they award skaters appropriately for what they actually do the night of competition. How refreshing!

Take the 1997 US Nationals, for instance. Michelle Kwan was the defending US and World champion, and she was fast becoming one of the most beloved of all US figure skaters. Yet, she had a meltdown during her long program - fell twice, and missed a third jump. The marks were perhaps a bit high, considering her mistakes (at least the presentation marks were quite high) but the technical marks accurately reflected her mistakes - 5.3s and so on. Yes, she certainly was "held up" enough so that she made the World Team, but she did not defend her title. Tara Lipinski skated a dynamic routine, albeit one with somewhat juvenile choregraphy (she was only 14 years old!), and she won the US title, fairly and squarely.

 

[Verbalgirl77]

Michelle finished 3rd overall in the 97 Nats LP, which I think is pretty fair. She beat Nikodinov for 3rd place in the LP a 5-4 split, which I think is ok. The 'high' scores themselves weren't really the issue. Angela was a consistent jumper, but the overall construction and design of her 97 program didn't have the choreographic content of Taj Mahal.

 

[SkateFan4Life]

My point is, had the judges been playing the "wait your turn" game at the 1997 US Nationals, Tara Lipinski would not have won the title. She would have been relegated to second or third place, and Michelle's marks would have been held up enough so that she would have retained her title.

I think the judges scored that long program exactly right.

 

[peachstatesk8er]

My point is, had the judges been playing the "wait your turn" game at the 1997 US Nationals, Tara Lipinski would not have won the title. She would have been relegated to second or third place, and Michelle's marks would have been held up enough so that she would have retained her title.

I think the judges scored that long program exactly right.

If Michelle had had one fall they still would have handed the title to her. But three mistakes, would have been too obvious, she gave them no choice.