What Makes Jumps Different from each other?

[Tinymavy15]

I'm not sure I understand this. The blade being rigid, the heel can't fail to be along the tangent line, yes? So if a skater pre-rotated the blade 90 degrees before take-off, isn't the whole blade sideways, compared to the direction she is going through the air? Or does she actually leap in a direction 90 degrees off from her original approach direction?

skaters are taught to "cheat" the entrance edge of the salchow and toe loop so curving the skating foot's edge as the body takes off. Very rarely will a skater do a toe loop where she reaches back with her left toe and vaults straight up. What happens is as the left toe pick digs in the right foot comes around in front and pushes up with the knee (like and axel takeoff) just as the left toe pushes up off the ice. When the skater turns her whole body along with the right leg and delays this motion it is a toe axel (al la kimmie meissener) and a unaccepable cheat.

 

[gkelly]

Jumps intentionally landed on back inside edge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyMozeKlkjc
one-foot axel into triple salchow at about 1:18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G7CDgXEkro
one-foot double salchow at about 1:32

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXJqsoFwUic
one-foot axels in both directions starting at 4:59

 

[gsrossano]

I'm not sure I understand this. The blade being rigid, the heel can't fail to be along the tangent line, yes? So if a skater pre-rotated the blade 90 degrees before take-off, isn't the whole blade sideways, compared to the direction she is going through the air?

No.

What Tinymavy writes is mainly correct. The thing to keep in mind when talking about the rotation at the start of the jump is that there is a change in the direction of the skater's motion relative to the walls of the rink due to how deep an edge (tight a lobe) they follow on the setup, and how much this hooks into the setup circle. Then there may also be a change in direction because the edge may not be clean and the skater skids off the edge to start the jump, or there may be a turn or twist of the body forward just before leaving the ice that turns the skater around to a brief forward motion. It is this last turn forward that makes a toe loop into a toe Axel.

A single toe loop can be done from an edge that is pretty straight and flows out pretty straight with nearly the full rotation in the air (at least I could do one). But as you add more rotations it is pretty common to hook the takeoff edge more and more. High speed photos of quads show that these jumps usually have a very tight lobe on the takeoff and often the upper body of the skater already is turned around ahead of the lower body's rotation. Elvis used to do this in the extreme on his quad toes.

 

[Ladskater]

Basically the difference is - there are edge jumps and toe-pick jumps. There are various ways to enter a jump and that is what makes the jump look different.

Hope this helps.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Jumps landing on back inside edges were the most interesting connecting jumps, imo., they had flow and in many cases showed musicality. But they do not have any base value now. The list of jumps that have base value do not include one foot axels, half loops, etc. as having points value even if they are executed as doubles and triples. They may get a nod in the PCS if the judge remembers them.

I reiterate, you define a jump by the edge of it's take-off and if you can't do that edge then you must pretend to attempt it. The penalty for not doing a jump because of its proper take-off is very little, and it actually satisfies the definition of another jump.

Joe

 

[gkelly]

Jumps landing on back inside edges were the most interesting connecting jumps, imo., they had flow and in many cases showed musicality. But they do not have any base value now. The list of jumps that have base value do not include one foot axels, half loops, etc. as having points value even if they are executed as doubles and triples.

That's not correct. As grossano has already stated several times in this thread that jumps landed on the opposite foot receive the same base value as the same jump landed on the back outside edge . . . the only exception is the single-rotation loop landed on the other foot (half loop).

One-foot axel counts the same as a single axel. One-foot double salchow would count the same as a regular double salchow. The GOE would be up to the judges, depending on quality.

 

[vlaurend]

So you agree, saying the Salchow and toe loop take off forward is not correct, since half way to forwards is not forwards.

And then I am going to quibble with the words anyway. For the Salchow and the loop, and to a minor extent the toe loop, the takeoff edge hooks inward on a tighter lobe than the original setup to the jump. Nevertheless at the takeoff the heel of the blade points in the direction of motion along the tangent line to the edge and the takeoff is thus backwards (if done correctly). This is in contrast to a toe Axel where the skater makes a turn at the takeoff (or otherwise skids or pulls off the edge) and the the direction of motion is now forwards at the takeoff, and an error.

In describing the direction of an edge, forward and backwards is identified relative to the instantaneous tangent to the edge, not the walls in the arena. In a back outside 8, for example, you are on a backwards edge the whole time even though the motion of the skater relative to the long axis varies through every direction relative to the walls by 720 degrees.

Similarly the loop and the Salchow also often land on a tight edge which then straightens out somewhat. The trace on the ice can end up looking like the trace of a three turn with a big gap from the takeoff edge to the landing edge while the skater is in the air. For a single, the skater may well only rotate only half a turn in the air. This is the natural movement of the jump so I don't use the term pre-rotation in this context since I use that term for errors like the pre-takeoff turn in a toe Axel or skidding the takeoff on an Axel to cheat the jump.

Yes, what you say about the salchow is actually more correct than what I said, since the LBI takeoff edge of a salchow is still on a LBI edge even as the edge curves more tightly. In fact, I looked at the ice marks from my double sal and realized the landing edge was going the exact same direction as the takeoff edge at takeoff, so the jump is really 2 full revolutions in the air (it's just not two revolutions over the landing hip like the loop, flip and lutz would be.) But I still think the toeloop could be a little less rotated in the air because the pick goes in at a bit of a diagonal and rotates a little more before leaving the ice.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If a jump is executed by definition, there is no problem in scoring it at base value.

Prerotations on the ice before a jump are not considered faulty, from what I have been reading in the protocols. Landings of more than 45 degrees off the literal triple rotations do get penalized to the hilt. I don't believe landings of 44 - 35 degress off the literal triples are considered ok for full base value.

Unfortunately, my list of ISU jumps for competitive purposes does not list landings on inside edges. If they do give credit for .5 or 1.0 rotations, I have not seen it in the protocols. There is no credit for multiple rotations that land on the inside edge as far as I know. Have never seen them in the protocols, but then I am human, I think.

Joe

 

[gsrossano]

There is no credit for multiple rotations that land on the inside edge as far as I know. Have never seen them in the protocols, but then I am human, I think.

The protocols do not annotate every characteristic of every element! There are plenty of things the skaters do that get credit that you cannot figure out from looking at the protocols. In many case you also cannot figure out which particular errors resulted in the loss of points. Nevertheless the skaters get the credit or lose the points, even if you can't figure out why from the protocol!

 

[Mathman]

If they do give credit for .5 or 1.0 rotations, I have not seen it in the protocols.

In the protocols for any competition you will see a sprinkling of credit given for single jumps.

For instance, in the Grand Prix Final Carolina Kostner's third element was a 1F. She earned the base vaule for this element, 0.50, with 0.00 GOE.

There is no credit for multiple rotations that land on the inside edge as far as I know.

What I am getting from this thread is that you DO get full base value no matter what edge you land on.

If you take off from the right back outside edge with a toe pick assist and complete three rotations, then you have done a triple toe. Base value 4.0.

Then you get a GOE, plus or minus, depending on many factors. So...

If you take off from a back outside eddge and land on a back outside edge, your base value is 4.0.

If you take off from a back outside edge and land on a back inside edge, your base value is 4.0.

If you take off from a back outside edge and land on the flat, your base value is 4.0.

If you take off from an outside back edge and land on both feet, your base value is 4.0.

If you take off from a back outside edge and land on your heel and fall on your behind, your base value is 4.0.

A flutz, on the other hand, as I understand it now, goes like this.

If you take off from an outside back edge you get a base value of 6.0, the base value for a Lutz. Then there is GOE, plus or minus.

If you take off from the inside back edge, then the protocols list "6.0 with mandatory -1 e deduction in GOE," bringing the value of the element to 5.0 , which is the base value of a flip. Then there is the possibility of negative GOE, but not positive GOE, on top of that.

So for an attempted Lutz:

Back outside edge, 6.0 (it's a Lutz!), +/- possible GOE.

Back inside edge, 5.0 (it's a flip!), - possible additional GOE deduction.

 

[gkelly]

If you take off from the inside back edge, then the protocols list "6.0 with mandatory -1 e deduction in GOE," bringing the value of the element to 5.0 , which is the base value of a flip.

If you take off from a back inside edge without ever having been on the outside edge to begin with or ever having given some indication in the setup that you intended to be, then the jump would be called as a flip.

The base value of a triple flip is 5.5, so the GOE reduction for an intended triple lutz that takes off from the back inside edge ends up reducing the value of the flutz to 0.5 less than that of a triple flip. (For doubles the difference is only 0.1 and for singles it ends up breaking even.)

Then there is the possibility of negative GOE, but not positive GOE, on top of that.

There's a requirement of negative GOE if the edge change is called. Some judges might occasionally miss going back and lowering their GOE after receiving the call, but they're supposed to give no more than -1 for the called wrong edge.

There isn't a change in the base value, though, nor is there a change in the name of the jump. The negative GOE is the only penalty. It's a pretty significant penalty, though, if the rest of the jump was otherwise good enough for positive GOE as opposed to just base value.

So for an attempted Lutz:

Back outside edge, 6.0 (it's a Lutz!), +/- possible GOE.

Back inside edge, 5.0 (it's a flip!), - possible additional GOE deduction.

No, intentional back inside edge, it's a flip, 5.5 base value, +/1 possible GOE.

Intended lutz that changed to back inside, it's a lutz with a wrong edge takeoff, base value 6.0, required negative GOE (GOE must be -1 or lower), so the maximum final score for the jump is 5.0.

 

[Mathman]

^ Oh, yeah, I got confused about that 5.5.

Still, I am starting to see a mehtod to the ISU madness after all.

Instead of base value versus GOE, I think the right way to look at it is "starting point" and "discretionary bonus/demerits."

The starting point is what the tech specialist calls, and the discretionary part is what the judges decide.

Lutz = 6.0 starting point, GOE -3 to +3.
Flip-all-the-way = 5.5 starting point, -3 to +3 GOE
Loop = 5.0 staring point, -3 to +3 GOE
Flutz = 5.0 starting point (since there is no such jump as the flutz, protocols list it as Lutz+e), -2 to 0 discretionary judges' demerit -- no discretionary bonus allowed.

Maybe we should start calling it a Lutzie instead of a flutz. (There is no such jump as a flutz, but there is such a jump as a Lutz-e -- the protocols are full of them.)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I love this statement:

What I am getting from this thread is that you DO get full base value no matter what edge you land on.

So amusing. In footwork, many skater do the old jumps that land on inside edges. They should because it makes for rhythm. But I do not think they are judged as jumps individually but as part of the whole footwork sequence.

I do not remember reading anything about jumps landing on an inside edge that are used in scoring. I remember in reading about the step sequence that landing on a simple half loop can be used to complete the combo with a salchow. I thought only the first jump of the combo and the salchow were judged individually but not the half loop. Was I wrong to think that?

The only serious judgement is when the Tech Asst calls an underrotation. Otherwise any other kind of fault in jumps are minimally minus scored.

What I get is that it doesn't matter how you take off, the Tech Asst will call what the intended jump is. Only he can tell. That is not easy when the skater takes off on the Flat!, and I have seen many of them. But, of course, there was an attempt at a jump he had written down. yeah.

Joe

 

[gkelly]

I do not remember reading anything about jumps landing on an inside edge that are used in scoring.

Have you read this document? See the bottom of p. 51.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/First-Aid-Single_2007-08-15.pdf

Landing on another foot All jumps may be landed on either foot. The call goes for the jump, independent of the landing foot; Judges will reflect this in the GOE if necessary.

I remember in reading about the step sequence that landing on a simple half loop can be used to complete the combo with a salchow. I thought only the first jump of the combo and the salchow were judged individually but not the half loop. Was I wrong to think that?

You mean jump sequence, not step sequence? Yes, that is correct. As grossano and I mentioned above, the half loop (loop takeoff, one revolution, back inside landing on the other foot) is the only full-rotation jump from a listed takeoff landing on the back inside edge that is counted as a transitional hop and not as a listed jump.

What I get is that it doesn't matter how you take off, the Tech Asst will call what the intended jump is. Only he can tell.

The main official who makes that call is the technical specialist, assisted by the assistant technical specialist. There is no position called Tech(nical) ***(istan)t. That person might be male or female.

Most skaters, coaches, judges, as well as technical specialists can tell what jump is intended. Telling exactly where the blade was at the very instant of takeoff or landing might require close-up, slow-motion video. In most cases, including edge changes at takeoff, that kind of scrutiny is not applied and the intention, which is almost always obvious to all knowledgeable viewers, is what is called.

That is not easy when the skater takes off on the Flat!, and I have seen many of them.

You mean lutzes? It's not easy to generate any rotation from a jump that takes off from a flat. Often lutzes do start to come off the outside edge before the blade leaves the ice so it may be on a flat at the split second of liftoff, but that is acceptable.

But, of course, there was an attempt at a jump he had written down.

The intended jump is not determined from the planned program content sheets but from what the skater actually does. Often they do elements that are completely different from what's on the sheet.