What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in pairs?

[bananatros]

V/M 12th at their first Olympics (7 seasons together) they were 8th at their second Olympics.

Well, you should get you data correct as well. V/M were indeed 12th at her first Olympics, but they were only together for two seasons back then. And as you mentioned Morozov had been 15th with Savchenko

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

mousepotato, it does seem that in order to fend off dismissals of K/S, you're doing the exact same to everyone else competing and ignoring those glaring factors.

1. B/L lost to K/S at Worlds 2010. They did so by 21 points. Both teams had errors. B/L lost to K/S at Worlds 2011. They did so by 0.23 points. In that time, B/L closed the PCS gap from approximately 20 points between the two programs to six. To me, this is a pretty stark improvement. In fact, K/S's LP in 2011 was arguably cleaner (one fall vs two last season) and they had a stronger program choreographically (imo, hated last season's), but their PCS went down in both programs. Conversely, with their former partners, V/T's PCS at Worlds were higher (compared to M/T at Worlds and V/M at the Olympics).

2. Comparing scoring across seasons is not accurate as the scoring rules themselve change. That K/S' peak in 2010 beats V/T's peak in 2011 isn't all that impressive when you point out that they had an extra element in the SP (take that away, and they're behind).

3. What can V/T do to improve their scores? Backload more. S/S backloaded six elements where V/T did 4, and V/T's base value was actually lower than K/S. Higher level twist. Stronger pairs feeling.

4. I'm not sure how you feel the Russian Federation will behave, but V/T have beaten K/S at two head-to-head competitions, by 13 and 23 points respectiely. V/T will likely be the number ones, and all that entails.

 

[pangtongfan]

You seem to have the impression that V/T just strapped skates on a year ago, if that were true the silver would be very significant but both V/T had made significant progress on the world of skating before they got together, each being 4th in the world, you seem to be forgetting their former partners and career.

Smirnov's partner on the other hand was Ekaterina Vasiliev, a singles skaters who's first partner was Smirnov, the best they did was 6th at Jr. Worlds in 2006. Where were M/T and V/M at this time? Kavaguti's former partners were okay but they best they did as pair was 15th at the US Nationals (with Patrick) and 13th at Senior worlds (with Markuntsov). By the time K/S got together in May of 2006 they were nowhere near the other two teams in terms of experience including V/T now.

Trankov and Mukhortova were having horrible results at the senior level until the 07-08 season as well if you want to look at it that way. And the same was true for Volosozhar until the 06-07 season. Anyway I see your point, but you only pointed out how long the various skaters were together in your previous post, and fact is V/T are still a brand new pair.

They weren't even with Moskvina until September of 2006 and only had 3 competitions their first season (Cup of Nice, Cup of Russia, Worlds.) You are comparing their careers side by side and don't seem to be taking in consideration their backgrounds. You must be choosing to ignore those glaring factors.

Like I said Volosozhar and Trankov didnt begin to have any even moderate senior level success until the previous quad, Trankov did have junior success yes. So as long as Kavaguti & Smirnov were an actual pair together. And why would I have focused on this when you never did in your initial posts, you only talked about how short a time Kavaguti & Smirnov were together so naturally that is what I focused on for other pairs too. It looks like you are looking for new ways to dance around the topic, which is fine, but dont expect me to be able to presume which new one it is each time and be able to follow in advance.

Yet you assume after 3 1/2 years together and considering who their former partners were that K/S would do any better?

Heck yes I would assume K/S would do better than the teams I listed. The teams I listed are good decent journeyteams, K/S are much better than those particular teams so of course they should be doing much better and do. There is nothing more to get into there. It is futile talking about the careers of teams like Evora & Ladwig or Langlois & Hay who never had a prayer of being a top international team as any point of reference.

Being 2.50 points away from a Olympic gold medal after the short and 4th overall is far more impressive than an silver world medal after a year considering where all four came from. If you can't see that, you never will.

LOL ok you just keep thinking that, you are probably the only one who believes this though.

Again you assume K/S should be at the top in a few short years just because they are Russian, but you don't expect the same from anyone else like V/M, M/T, D/D, E/L or H/L, that hardly seems fair.

Still trying to include teams like Evora & Ladwig and Langlois & Hay in the conversation. Good grief. I never said anything about what I expected from K/S. I was only pointing out it seems futile to point out K/S as being together only 4 or 5 years continously when V/T did so well in their first season together. And skating with different partners is nothing like skating with each other, and as I already pointed out the 4 skaters have had some sort of moderate or better senior level success about the same amount of time anyway if you look at that way, K/S just were with each other as a pair for all of it unlike the other two.

And I shouldnt have to explain how it would be easier to be a top Russian pair than coming up as a top Chinese pair in the 90s or early 2000s, which was my only point in reference to the Chinese pairs (there is no point in getting into the array of good journeyteams who are much weaker than K/S anyway).

K/S getting 4th at their first Olympics is better than any pair in 2010 so there is no reason to think they can't get a medal in their second Olympics just like the rest of the medalists. Who knows what will happen three years from now V/T or S/S may not even be around.

I never said K/S had no chance of a medal in Sochi now did I. The idea V/T wouldnt be around 3 years from now is incredibly far fetched though. And that is fine since I never said K/S cant beat them in the future if they skate well enough either. Of course it is possible S/S or P/T wont but both pairs are planning on being there as well, and S/S imparticular seem more likely to be than not as well. And there are alot of younger teams coming up, even if you dismiss some of them. I am not saying K/S cant do well but it wont be easy, and they have their work cut out for them even more than it looked before. I like their skating though and hope they can win a World title and/or Olympic medal at some point so I wish them luck.

 

[gmyers]

K/S getting together only after the 2006 Olympics does factor into their level of success. It was impressive that they got top 3 so fast. Seems like the pressure would have been most on them. It was very rare that the Olympic champions are not competing together before even the previous Olympics.

 

[yqs100]

S/S skated two clean programs at Worlds which they hardly ever do anyway. I dont think V/T have a huge amount to worry about to be honest. They will probably improve and S/S probably wont have many competitions like Worlds. I would like to see a rivalry between both teams since I would like to see a great fight for the Sochi gold especialy after the dissapointment for S/S in Vancouver, but i wouldnt be surprised to see V/T dominance which could lead to S/S retiring if they dont feel they are even in the fight for Vancouver gold. I would rather see a big rivalry on top between the two though.

I think P/T will hang around for now but not sure if they stay for Sochi. The Worlds SP and beating a clean S/S will be a boost for them but they struggled on the side by sides all year. As long as they stay they are for sure medal threats though.

I wonder what happens with Kavaguti & Smirnov. I hope they can make a strong comeback and keep fighting after this season. Hopefully the Russian fed. tries to largely support both teams, but I am not sure if that is too likely.

The Zhangs are done. Stick a fork in them as far as being contenders ever again, even if they return, which I doubt.

Sui & Han are overrated. Once she grows they are finished. I agree with who said they are an example of all the worst of COP. I think once Pang & Tong retire the Chinese pairs are out of the elite for awhile.

Of the North American teams I think Duhamel & Radford are the only ones with potential to be a top pair in the future. They have alot of work to do though.

I would like to see Bazazova & Larionov take the step up and become real medal contenders at Worlds next year, which they arent yet. They seem to be coming along nicely though. They also need to look behind them in Russia with alot of strong teams coming up though.

Disagree,,,, last year Zhang Zhang had been training with Lori for one month, to work on their transition and skating skill,,,

believe lori and their coach know their weakness better than anyone else,,,,good thing is they are trying to improve,,,,

From yuna's show last month, Dan Zhang looks much more comfortable on the ice now...and also they are training for new difficulties....so the game is not done yet....

 

[pangtongfan]

They might improve but it is too late for them IMHO. They are too far behind the other pairs and have no momentum now. At the 2010 Worlds they skated two clean and perfect programs with very high technical difficulty, and I felt their artistry had already improved from previous years by that point. They were still placed 5th, and the 4 pairs above them all had mistakes. The pairs field was much stronger at Worlds this year than last year. I cant see the judges considering them as real contenders even if they have improved more at this point. If they prove me wrong good for them, but that is how I see things now.

 

[pangtongfan]

The worst thing for the Zhangs IMO is that with teams like the Germans and Volosozhar & Trankov their big tricks dont even stand out far above the others like they used to. They arent technically the strongest team anymore, whereas that is their major strength over the years. That is why I am not sure improving their artistry at this point to get closer to the other teams there will help them much. Plus if Pang & Tong stay in they will probably get support as the Chinese #1 by the federation, I am not saying that just because I am a fan, just based on their success the last 2 seasons vs a team who hasnt done much since 2009 now.

 

[Tonichelle]

They might improve but it is too late for them IMHO. They are too far behind the other pairs and have no momentum now.

I seem to recall several other chinese pairs to be described in much the same way... Pang & Tong won their worlds well after people were writing them off.

 

[blue dog]

I seem to recall several other chinese pairs to be described in much the same way... Pang & Tong won their worlds well after people were writing them off.

same with Shen and Zhao in 2006, when they were injured. Many were shocked they won the bronze in Torino. Of course, as recently as the beginning of this year, people were writing off the Chinese Pairs program, since P/T were in their thirties.

 

[pangtongfan]

Pang & Tong were always still considered contenders. They were just inconsistent. They never skated 2 clean programs and finished 5th at a watered down Worlds. Nobody wrote them as medal contenders ever though. And nobody was writing Shen & Zhou off if they made it to Turin. In fact people overrated their chances. Some were predicting they would battle Totmianina & Marinin for the gold even after all that time off with injury, which I knew was ridiculous.

 

[Binthere]

All I'll say is I want the Zhangs to come back, and to perform with great power which emphasizes their strengths and power. Are they "complete" skaters? I think not, ... but it does not mean that I do not admire quality in some of its unique and exceptional forms in skating. Hope they come back strong.

 

[yqs100]

Pang & Tong were always still considered contenders. They were just inconsistent. They never skated 2 clean programs and finished 5th at a watered down Worlds. Nobody wrote them as medal contenders ever though. And nobody was writing Shen & Zhou off if they made it to Turin. In fact people overrated their chances. Some were predicting they would battle Totmianina & Marinin for the gold even after all that time off with injury, which I knew was ridiculous.

Thats because they had a miserable season last year,,,,,didnt skate well at all before the worlds, and the chrography was bad too, especially the LP...technically they were still on the top.. I always believe consistency can build up the score...

Good example is Pang/ Tong, 07 08 09 their PCS is just around 30 and 60, even at the beginning of 09~10, they were still just 31 /62,,,,, but they were strong in 09~10..... and see whats the PCS in the olympics and worlds?


If Zhangs continue delivering clean performance, they will be back to be the contenders,, its just about time..

 

[colleen o'neill]

This is info filched from FSU ( Russian skating news thread ) Apparently Bazarova & Larionov will be turning to Zueva for choreography next year and she may become their choreographer on an ongoing basis . I think this could make a big difference to them. In the meantime , it seems rumours,but at this point only rumours, are swirling about a coaching change for them..

 

[Tinymavy15]

This is info filched from FSU ( Russian skating news thread ) Apparently Bazarova & Larionov will be turning to Zueva for choreography next year and she may become their choreographer on an ongoing basis . I think this could make a big difference to them. In the meantime , it seems rumours,but at this point only rumours, are swirling about a coaching change for them..

Interesting. I can't believe Marina Z. has the time to work with more students, but it will be interesting seeing her do pair work again.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Well , they did just say choreography..and she did choreograph for the Zhangs ,and for Y/C. ( Their Ave Maria is the most memorable..in a good way..use of that music IMO)..That's just 2 off the top of my head , but there may have been others..so it wouldn't necessarily rob time from her students.

 

[smia]

What I'd really like to see from Bazarova/Larionov is her gaining some weight. She hits some beautiful positions but the overall impression is ruined by her skeletal appearance. Also, no more tights over boots! Why do skaters do that, it makes their legs look deformed and clunky.

 

[dorispulaski]

GP assignments

Skate America
Moore-Towers/Moscovitch
Zhang/Zhang
Hausch/Wende
Savchenko/Szolkowy
Bazarova/Larionov
Marley/Brubaker
Vise/Baldwin
TBD USA

Skate Canada
Duhamel/Radford
Lawrence/Swiegers
TBD Canada
Sui/Han
Yu/Jin
Takahashi/Tran
Iliusheckina/Maisuradze
Volosozhar/Trankov

Cup of China
Moore-Towers/Moscovitch
Stelle/Schultz
Zhang/Wang
Zhang/Zhang
Kadlecova/Bidar
Kavaguti/Smirnov
Evora/Ladwig

NHK
Purich/Schultz
Pang/Tong
Savchenko/Szolkowy
Berton/Hotarek
Takahashi/Tran
Iliushechkina/Maisuradze
Kavaguti/Smirnov
Castelli/Shnapir

TEB
Duhamel/Radford
Dong/Wu
Canac/Bonheur
TBD France
Bazarova/Larionov
Stolbova/Klimov
Volosozhar/Trankov
Evora/Ladwig

Cup of Russia
Jones/Gaskell
Hausch/Wende
Savchenko/Szolkowy
Berton/Hotarek
Gerboldt/Enbert
Kavaguti/Smirnov
TBD Russia
Cain/Reagan

 

[Violet Bliss]

I think you left out Pang/Tong in COC.

 

[BackStage Barbie]

When are Caitlin Yankowskas & Drew Meekins going to go ahead and pair up?

 

[LuCN]

Zhang/Zhang's programs:
SP:vampire
LP: Spartacus
choreographed by Lori
they have a new EX too,they'll perform it on Artristy on Ice.
http://sports.163.com/11/0630/15/77QBV79L00051CAQ.html