Where would Caroline have been?

[gio]

I would love to see all the girls, not just these two, work on their weaknesses and emphasize their strengths, and come out with good, clean programs skated to the best of their abilities, the next time they meet on the ice.

You always make good points!!! You are a real FS fan!!! :agree: :agree:

 

[GoldMedalist]

It's a pain without slowmo to look at the entry and the takeoff, the height and the distance, and the exact moment of the landing. Oh well, maybe her lutz was more than a quarter short on rotation.

Caroline Zhang's Lutz that she fell on was a full half-turn short.

All of her jumps are a quarter turn short normally. So, if she loses any speed or doesn't get in exactly the correct position, the jump is going to become downgrade material. Caroline needs to be perfect just to do barely-passable jumps. Luckily, she's consistent at being nearly perfect and excels at many things in skating outside of the jumps.

 

[feraina]

I was watching Emily Hughes' JW bronze-winning performance the other day. Every single one of her jumps was ratified, and yet quite a few looked very under-rotated to me. Perhaps she wouldn't have beaten Kimmie Meissner if the UR markings were applied as strictly/consistently as they are now. On the other hand, Kimmie has always had her own toe-axeling/UR problems, so who knows.

It was a bit of a shock to see so many downgrades at SA, the first event this year, but now it's starting to look more like a good thing - it forces the skaters and their teams to work on more solid jumps. Plus ISU seems really keen on rewarding great jumps like Yu-na's, which also motivates other skaters to improve the quality of their own jumps.

I was looking at Mao's LP again. While the 3A was definitely two-footed, the 3F/3T wasn't as clearly so (though the 3T looked a little under-rotated). One thing to note though, some of her jumps were clearly not under-rotated nor 2-footed, so they garnered higher GOE's. So I think the very fact that a jump looks close to being UR or 2F is probably penalized.

 

[carolinefan177]

Caroline Z gets decent GOE's on her 3/3 and solo 3F because she has good in-air position (if not height or distance), and tidy landing position. You rarely see her struggling for the landing (she falls if she really under-rotates, but otherwise it's always a tidy landing), the way Emily seems to struggle for every one of them. She doesn't telegraph her jump preparations the way Carolina does, and she does smooth, nice footwork into her solo 3F. Plus she lands the 3F with her arms over her hand, coming down prettily. It counts as a difficult variation, and shows control and body-awareness.

I'm not saying she has the best jumps, but she definitely deserves the GOE's that she gets. I suggest those confused by how jump GOE's are given to go and read the ISU rules before coming to bash skaters on these boards...

ETA: on the swervy entry for the lutz, Caroline under-rotated every single one of them this season, I believe. They put the hardest jumps in the second half because they garner the most points that way. Mirai has both of her 3 lutzes in the second half this season, even though she had trouble rotating the second one even when they were far apart (at national's last year, for instance; if she had rotated that second lutz, she would've beaten Caroline by more points). And this season I think Mirai has had at least one lutz downgraded in every LP.

I think the skaters can probably fully rotate these jumps in practice, in isolation, so then it makes sense to get the 10% bonus on the hardest jumps. But the fatigue and stress of the competition means that they often run out of steam in the second half -- I think this was (rightly) the rationale for rewarding jumps in the second half. For skaters who consistently under-rotates jumps in the second half, I wonder if it doesn't make sense to shuffle the jumps around...

I always have to agree with you!!! In regard to her flip, I'm actually surprised that she doesn't garner more + GOEs than she has. The forward charlotte that she does prior to it is extremely difficult, and she is one of the only skaters that I have seen do the charlotte in that direction.

 

[feraina]

I always have to agree with you!!!

Heh. It's nice when someone agrees with what you say -- it doesn't happen very often on these boards.

In regard to her flip, I'm actually surprised that she doesn't garner more + GOEs than she has. The forward charlotte that she does prior to it is extremely difficult, and she is one of the only skaters that I have seen do the charlotte in that direction.

That forward Charlotte is impressive. I'm always a little scared though that she would run out of room afterwards for the 3flip. It's tough to get into it quickly because it's so easy to catch the toe-pick, but I feel like she needs that in order to have maximal room and time to prepare for the 3F.

Paul Wyllie in the GPF broadcast actually said in the SP slow-mo that she has a nice reach-back for her 3F (in the combo) -- and it's true. I think it might be the first time I've ever heard a commentator praise her jump take-off. The reach-back in a toe-jump is important (Dick Button used to comment on that often). Katy Taylor has a notorious bent-leg lazy pick, and I think as she grew older, this faulty picking technique really contributed to her jumps falling apart. Carolina Kostner actually doesn't reach back much on her flips/lutz. It's amazing that she can get as much height as she does; maybe she gets away with it because she uses her long legs and a good knee bend to get the height. Caroline, OTOH, since she's so small, really needs the reach back to spring into the air. Another good thing about her entry is that she keeps her back up. Mao (and Kimmie to some extent) lets her upper-body dip during the reach-back, and then she's leaning forward during the rotation, plus she doesn't get that much height, so she's often having trouble with 2-footing that 3F, especially as the first part of her combos. Normally Mao's so straight in the air for all her jumps, but the 3F...

 

[chuckm]

I have to laugh about Kostner given credit for her "tidy" jump landings. So often they are NOT tidy at all---she often has to save them! Her 2As are a joke. She hardly gets any air at all on them, and the final 2A in her FS is usually landed on two feet. In fact, at the GPF, she spun in the air and landed very ungracefully on two feet at the end of her program.

The other problem I have with Carolina is the protracted entry into all of her jumps. She has become the #1 telegrapher, even worse than Liashenko and Slutskaya.

I have to admit I hate watching Kostner skate. She still looks ungainly, with flailing arms and those pouffy skirts that make her look rather like an ostrich. Yes, she has speed, but then she slows down before each jump, holding up her foot and looking even MORE like a wading bird.

 

[feraina]

I have to laugh about Kostner given credit for her "tidy" jump landings. So often they are NOT tidy at all---she often has to save them! Her 2As are a joke. She hardly gets any air at all on them, and the final 2A in her FS is usually landed on two feet. In fact, at the GPF, she spun in the air and landed very ungracefully on two feet at the end of her program.

Who said Carolina has tidy landings?

2A is Carolina's nemesis jump. She used to have even more trouble with them. In the GPF LP, she landed a 2A-3T (although the 2A looked under-rotated in slow-motion), before she stepped out of her 2A.

But I wouldn't say that she looks terrible as a skater. She's fast, and she's learning to control her speed. And she's also got presence and charisma. Calling her an ostrich is a little... mean, JMO.

 

[ChrisH]

For skaters who consistently under-rotates jumps in the second half, I wonder if it doesn't make sense to shuffle the jumps around...

Caroline Zhang's Lutz that she fell on was a full half-turn short.

I seriously doubt it was that short. Regardless, that makes 2 falls, 3 downgrades, and 3 edge calls on that 3Lz in 3 attempts. She would be better off replacing it with a 2A+3T. To free up a combo slot, her 2nd jump element, a 3Lz+2T, could be reduced to a solo 3Lz.