Why do the U.S. women lose their Triple Lutz-Triple Toe?

[Parksideprince]

So I'm watching Grand Prix of France and I noticed that Mariah Bell who has completed Triple Lutz Triple Toe jump combinations in the past is not doing some Triple Flip Double Axel combination which is worth 3 less points. I also noticed earlier this season Karen Chen who used to do a marvelous Triple Lutz Triple Toe did a Triple Lutz Double Toe with arm above the head. Even Bradie Tennell who was capable of the difficult Triple Lutz Triple Loop started turning her second jump into a toe loop. My point is where do these combinations go? Do they just up and leave one day and check into a Holiday Inn?

 

[chuckm]

Mariah Bell never did 3z+3t---her 3/3 was flip/toe. She often got < on the toe, which may be why she isn't doing a 3/3 now.

Anyway, the tech teams have been giving "q" to many of the 3/3 attempts, which is discouraging to the skaters.

Incidentally, Lindsay Thorngren at the Warsaw Cup did 3z+3lo (and got credit for it with no q) and then later attempted 3f+3t, but got 3f!+3tq. She did 2 flip jumps, but shouldn't, because of the !. She should stick to just one flip, and try 3z+3t in the second half.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Because it’s not easy to do a 3Z+3T, unless you’re bred in a Russian environment where your very survival/relevance/purpose in life depends on maintaining one.

If every American had to land a 3Z+3T to stay in the domestic top 10, you can bet more women would risk it.

In America, figure skating isn’t the way of life that it is in Russia and Japan so a skater with a 3Z+3T is a nice-to-have than a life-or-death that it is in Russia (figuratively speaking..... well... kind of).

 

[Parksideprince]

Because it’s not easy to do a 3Z+3T, unless you’re bred in a Russian environment where your very survival/relevance/purpose in life depends on maintaining one.

I just laughed out loud. I'm just so frustrated with the American women right now

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I just laughed out loud. I'm just so frustrated with the American women right now

Hah try being Canadian!

We got a World Champion in the most recent quad and you can best believe we are holding onto that one for as long as we can!!!

But seriously the interest and commitment is night and day in Russia vs the rest of the world. North America COULD have an Eteri to create quadsters but parents probably care about their kids’ self-esteem/sanity/bodies too much and there isn’t a vast pool of replacements in case one skater fizzles out.

To be honest it is kind of a miracle, skaters like Kalin and Liu, having done quads to keep up technically because we just. don’t. care. as. much. In Russia, quads were an inevitability... but in the states and Canada its no surprise that 3Z+3T is about as good as it gets because we don’t really want to put our women through the ringer as much nor is figure skating as big a deal that we are willing to push our skaters to hit that level of technical ability.

Let’s just appreciate that Russia is limited to 3 spots because this discipline could literally be taken over by a country that isn’t just far ahead technically but actually cares about being far ahead technically that they have developed a culture and an infrastructure where a 3Z+3T is merely par for the course.

 

[Amei]

Hah try being Canadian!

We got a World Champion in the most recent quad and you can best believe we are holding onto that one for as long as we can!!!

But seriously the interest and commitment is night and day in Russia vs the rest of the world. North America COULD have an Eteri to create quadsters but parents probably care about their kids’ self-esteem/sanity/bodies too much and there isn’t a vast pool of replacements in case one skater fizzles out.

To be honest it is kind of a miracle, skaters like Kalin and Liu, having done quads to keep up technically because we just. don’t. care. as. much. In Russia, quads were an inevitability... but in the states and Canada its no surprise that 3Z+3T is about as good as it gets because we don’t really want to put our women through the ringer as much nor is figure skating as big a deal that we are willing to push our skaters to hit that level of technical ability.

I think interest/commitment as well as future prospects in Russia are the main drivers - from what I can see, if you can have senior international success in figure skating for Russia, you have some pretty sweet financial options for your future, in the US not so much.

 

[mrrice]

This is an interesting question. I think Karen and Mariah don't feel the pressure since Bradie has been out all season. The top 3 ladies, Alysa, Lindsay, and Bradie all have solid 3/Lutz 3/Toe combinations. My guess is that Mariah and Karen will both attempt 3/3's at Nationals. Karen had a nice 3/toe 3/toe at one point.

 

[Koatterce]

Tons of skaters lose/ have problems with their 3Lz-3T (if they ever get one in the first place). It's not easy and tons of factors can influence the ability to do it (e.g. growth/puberty, injury, training disruptions, illness, mental block), which in turn also affects whether it's a good strategy to put it in the program. And this goes for any difficult jump or combo. Even Russian ladies aren't immune to it, it's just that they tend to be at a much higher level technically, so having difficulties their more difficult jumps/combos will still have them ahead or on par with the rest of the field. Plus I'm sure there are many Russian ladies that have lost their 3Lz-3T, we just have no idea who they are because there are tons of ladies with one (or other difficult jumps/combos). Vs for countries with less depth/technical standard, skaters can have an inconsistent 3Lz-3T, or not have one at all, and still be at the top of their country.

And about why countries like Russia have a higher technical standard due to tons of depth, many other posters have discussed that but it generally comes down to culture, money, and talent pool.

 

[mrrice]

Tons of skaters lose/ have problems with their 3Lz-3T (if they ever get one in the first place). It's not easy and tons of factors can influence the ability to do it (e.g. growth/puberty, injury, training disruptions, illness, mental block), which in turn also affects whether it's a good strategy to put it in the program. And this goes for any difficult jump or combo. Even Russian ladies aren't immune to it, it's just that they tend to be at a much higher level technically, so having difficulties their more difficult jumps/combos will still have them ahead or on par with the rest of the field. Plus I'm sure there are many Russian ladies that have lost their 3Lz-3T, we just have no idea who they are because there are tons of ladies with one (or other difficult jumps/combos). Vs for countries with less depth/technical standard, skaters can have an inconsistent 3Lz-3T, or not have one at all, and still be at the top of their country.

And about why countries like Russia have a higher technical standard due to tons of depth, many other posters have discussed that but it generally comes down to culture, money, and talent pool.

This is my feeling as well. The fact that Russia is willing to house, feed, and pay for the coaching of their skaters helps immensely. The reason my parents pulled me from skating was due to the expense. Even at the Amateur level, skating is expensive.

 

[chuckm]

Figure skating in Russia is government-funded, and girls even at 13 are professional athletes. That is not the case in the rest of the world, where the parents of the skaters must bear the costs of a very expensive sport. Many potentially talented skaters are out there but will never come to light because their parents simply can't afford even basic skating lessons.

 

[Dawn825]

North America COULD have an Eteri to create quadsters but parents probably care about their kids’ self-esteem/sanity/bodies too much and there isn’t a vast pool of replacements in case one skater fizzles out.

If only. Its just that in America parents would rather have their girls' minds and bodies crushed doing gymnastics instead of skating.

Comparing the US women to the Russia teenagers would be unfair. However it might be fair comparing them to the Japanese women. Kaori, Wakaba, and Mai are all in their 20s and doing 3-3s just fine.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

If every American had to land a 3Z+3T to stay in the domestic top 10, you can bet more women would risk it.

This is probably the case, along with the fact that every competition now contributes to a skater's body of work for better or worse. Risk is kind of discouraged now since skaters need to show consistent scores, and I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

 

[lurkerghost1]

Karen landed a 3Lz-3Tq at the Finlandia free skate. She adjusted her free skate layout at France so it has about the same base value without the 3-3 as it did with it. She only needs to worry about the 3-3 in the short which she landed at Worlds 2021. She's definitely not consistent with it but she doesn't need it to beat Lindsay. As for Amber and Mariah we'll have to see

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Karen landed a 3Lz-3Tq at the Finlandia free skate. She adjusted her free skate layout at France so it has about the same base value without the 3-3 as it did with it. She only needs to worry about the 3-3 in the short which she landed at Worlds 2021. She's definitely not consistent with it but she doesn't need it to beat Lindsay. As for Amber and Mariah we'll have to see

I think not having it is a great risk.
Playing it safe is okay if you go clean. But I wouldn't count on Lindsay making many mistakes, so it puts huge pressure to go clean.

 

[Skater Boy]

So I'm watching Grand Prix of France and I noticed that Mariah Bell who has completed Triple Lutz Triple Toe jump combinations in the past is not doing some Triple Flip Double Axel combination which is worth 3 less points. I also noticed earlier this season Karen Chen who used to do a marvelous Triple Lutz Triple Toe did a Triple Lutz Double Toe with arm above the head. Even Bradie Tennell who was capable of the difficult Triple Lutz Triple Loop started turning her second jump into a toe loop. My point is where do these combinations go? Do they just up and leave one day and check into a Holiday Inn?

Probably not Holiday Inn maybe a Hilton or the Ritz. American ladies have class as do their jumps!

 

[lurkerghost1]

I think not having it is a great risk.
Playing it safe is okay if you go clean. But I wouldn't count on Lindsay making many mistakes, so it puts huge pressure to go clean.

on the other hand, Karen will probably have at least 12 points on her in PCS between both programs. I am surprised to see people placing Lindsay in the top 3 given her very avrerage scores this year.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

on the other hand, Karen will probably have at least 12 points on her in PCS between both programs. I am surprised to see people placing Lindsay in the top 3 given her very avrerage scores this year.

She's new to the scene as a senior, and her jump technique is solid. Like, even when tired and altitude she does an almost clean performance.
Her skating skills are solid as well - just needs better choreography and outward performance.

Lindsay has a much higher scoring potential with a 3-3.
She has scored 70 in a sp, remember.
In the sp, it gives her an extra triple. In the FP, it gives her extra ability to backload, no +SEQ -20%.

in addition, don't forget that in practice she has completed 3A. If she can get that in, a safe program won't cut it.

Can I also add - these skaters look to compete internationally. Without a 3-3, they will get nowhere internationally. There are many small fed skaters now doing 3-3s like nothing- why take it out and stop practising it just to play safe in a domestic field?

 

[Amei]

This is my feeling as well. The fact that Russia is willing to house, feed, and pay for the coaching of their skaters helps immensely. The reason my parents pulled me from skating was due to the expense. Even at the Amateur level, skating is expensive.

Figure skating in Russia is government-funded, and girls even at 13 are professional athletes. That is not the case in the rest of the world, where the parents of the skaters must bear the costs of a very expensive sport. Many potentially talented skaters are out there but will never come to light because their parents simply can't afford even basic skating lessons.

Figure skating in Russia is not completely taxpayer funded, only if you get on the national teams is your funding (to an extent) covered. For example, Anastasia Tarakanova had a GoFundMe page for years to help cover her training.

 

[Lzbee]

I don't think Karen intentionally does a triple-double instead of a triple-triple... She can do a 3Lz-3T but the nerves obviously get to her and she doesn't necessarily get up to full speed in competition which, in turn, makes it a lot harder to do the 3-3. I think Mariah has a similar problem and Amber's problem is so clearly nerves.

This season has been very hard on the American women with the body of work criteria being so clearly laid out and the fact that there's 6 contenders for 3 spots. Every single competition counts. Basically, they're getting a taste of what it's like to be a Russian girl and these kind of stakes get harder to process the further past 15 years old you are.

 

[Amei]

I don't think Karen intentionally does a triple-double instead of a triple-triple... She can do a 3Lz-3T but the nerves obviously get to her and she doesn't necessarily get up to full speed in competition which, in turn, makes it a lot harder to do the 3-3. I think Mariah has a similar problem and Amber's problem is so clearly nerves.

In the FS she has done a triple-triple at both Skate Canada & Finlandia, however at both of those events similar to IDF in the SP she only did a triple-double for her combination.

This season has been very hard on the American women with the body of work criteria being so clearly laid out and the fact that there's 6 contenders for 3 spots. Every single competition counts. Basically, they're getting a taste of what it's like to be a Russian girl and these kind of stakes get harder to process the further past 15 years old you are.

The sad part is, the US ladies are in a literally a race for who gets to place roughly 10th at the Olympics. The Russians are in a race for the podium, there's going to be multiple skaters left behind that can do triple axels or quads. The US Fed needs to look at rewarding skaters going after more difficult content because all they are doing right now is encouraging easy content which is very beatable on the international stage. Excluding the 2 freshman skaters on the senior circuit, Alysa and Lindsay, the other ladies are largely doing the same content they have done for years, Karen's Skate Canada FS layout was almost exactly the same as her FS layout at the 2018 Olympics.