Why do the U.S. women lose their Triple Lutz-Triple Toe?

[yume]

3Lz-3T isn't the only 3-3 they can do to improve their scores.
I wonder why they don't go for the easiest 3-3s. It's better than underrotated 3Lz/F-3T.
There are ladies who scored well with 3T-3T or 3S-3T in SP. Like Tursynbaeva, Daleman, Sotnikova. And in FS with 7 seven triples. I would recommend Karen to do 2017 Daleman's layouts.

 

[lurkerghost1]

In the FS she has done a triple-triple at both Skate Canada & Finlandia, however at both of those events similar to IDF in the SP she only did a triple-double for her combination.



The sad part is, the US ladies are in a literally a race for who gets to place roughly 10th at the Olympics. The Russians are in a race for the podium, there's going to be multiple skaters left behind that can do triple axels or quads. The US Fed needs to look at rewarding skaters going after more difficult content because all they are doing right now is encouraging easy content which is very beatable on the international stage. Excluding the 2 freshman skaters on the senior circuit, Alysa and Lindsay, the other ladies are largely doing the same content they have done for years, Karen's Skate Canada FS layout was almost exactly the same as her FS layout at the 2018 Olympics.

Well they rewarded Mia Kalin for going for the quad but she got absolutely hammered internationally for the lack of...everything else. You're right that the US basically had a miracle happen to get 3 spots at Worlds (absolutely 0 people thought Karen would place 4th) but I don't think promoting 3As and quads at this stage will be helpful for the US. They need to look at how Russia got to where they are and realize that before Trusova and Shcherbakova there was Medvedeva and Radionova. They weren't technically ahead of Gold or Wagner much but they were way ahead of them in consistency. If the US promotes skaters like Bradie or Isabeau with consistent 3-3s they will develop a much deeper pool than promoting girls like Mia or Alysa who might have quads/3A while in juniors but don't have the technique to score high enough when they hit seniors. Then when they have a pool of skaters with 3-3 we will see some skaters naturally push for 3A/quad to get ahead as we see in Korea and Japan now. The fields in Korea and Japan now are much like the field was in Russia 4 years ago, whereas the US field is more like the Russian field 8 years ago.

 

[lurkerghost1]

3Lz-3T isn't the only 3-3 they can do to improve their scores.
I wonder why they don't go for the easiest 3-3s. It's better than underrotated 3Lz/F-3T.
There are ladies who scored well with 3T-3T or 3S-3T in SP. Like Tursynbaeva, Daleman, Sotnikova. And in FS with 7 seven triples. I would recommend Karen to do 2017 Daleman's layouts.

I think it's because at the end of the day Karen's 3T just isn't a good jump for her. Her best jumps are 2A, 3Lo, and 3Lz which is why she repeats 3Lo and 3Lz instead of a layout repeating 3T. Her free layout is fine for her especially now that she went back to 2A-3T and 3Lz-Eu-3S. I don't think she'd rotate 3T-3T any better than 3Lz-3T because it's not like she lands that 3T any better.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

This is my feeling as well. The fact that Russia is willing to house, feed, and pay for the coaching of their skaters helps immensely. The reason my parents pulled me from skating was due to the expense. Even at the Amateur level, skating is expensive.

Agreed. The same thing happened to me in gymnastics and figure skating. Once I reached high school it was over, due to the expense. At least in high school, I went on to less expensive sports like track and field. I also believe that in state-sponsored sports, as in Russia, they generally choose a certain body type with few exceptions. It's the same in all of the artistic sports, as well as ballet schools. I remember reading a gymnastics book years ago where it stated that choosing who gets to train is highly specialized. Doctors not only look over a child's medical history, body type, looking out for small hips, flexibility, and so on, but they even looked at the medical history, body types, etc. of parents and grandparents,(if possible), to gauge how a child might physically develop over time.

 

[labgoat]

3Lz-3T isn't the only 3-3 they can do to improve their scores.
I wonder why they don't go for the easiest 3-3s. It's better than underrotated 3Lz/F-3T.
There are ladies who scored well with 3T-3T or 3S-3T in SP. Like Tursynbaeva, Daleman, Sotnikova. And in FS with 7 seven triples. I would recommend Karen to do 2017 Daleman's layouts.

I wonder for Karen & Mariah if doing a 3T-3T would be less pressure and help them to develop more snap and complete rotation on the second jump which seems to be the problem for both.

 

[yume]

I think it's because at the end of the day Karen's 3T just isn't a good jump for her. Her best jumps are 2A, 3Lo, and 3Lz which is why she repeats 3Lo and 3Lz instead of a layout repeating 3T. Her free layout is fine for her especially now that she went back to 2A-3T and 3Lz-Eu-3S. I don't think she'd rotate 3T-3T any better than 3Lz-3T because it's not like she lands that 3T any better.

Then maybe she should try 3Lo-3T/3Lz/2A. I know 3Lo-3T doesn't seem aesthetically pleasing but Honda was doing pretty ones.
In FS less is more. She doesn't need the big combos. As long as she has 7 triples, rotations and GOEs are the most important.

I wonder for Karen & Mariah if doing a 3T-3T would be less pressure and help them to develop more snap and complete rotation on the second jump which seems to be the problem for both.

If their trouble is adding a 2nd triple after another, then jumping the easiest triple in first can help. If the trouble is the 3T itself, then it won't help them that much. Otherwise, i guess Mao would have done 3T-3T instead of those 3-2.

 

[mrrice]

If only. Its just that in America parents would rather have their girls' minds and bodies crushed doing gymnastics instead of skating.

Comparing the US women to the Russia teenagers would be unfair. However it might be fair comparing them to the Japanese women. Kaori, Wakaba, and Mai are all in their 20s and doing 3-3s just fine.

The other thing about "American Parents" these days is that there are sports that are MUCH less expensive to learn. Take Tennis, the highest paid female athlete in the world for many years was Serena Willams. Top tennis players earn Millions of dollars and they can learn the sport for free at ANY High School, Park, and Boys or Girls Club. Serena, Venus, and Maria Sharapova were all coached by their parents until they became Pro's. Venus kept her Father as her coach well into her career and after winning Wimbledon. Soccer, is another sport that Women are playing at a much higher rate now that you can make millions of dollars playing on a professional team. Every school, from Elementary through College has a soccer field where you can learn and play the game for free. You can also play at any time, and any day of the week. Unfortunately, this is simply not possible with skating.

 

[arewhyaen]

The other thing about "American Parents" these days is that there are sports that are MUCH less expensive to learn. Take Tennis, the highest paid female athlete in the world for many years was Serena Willams. Top tennis players earn Millions of dollars and they can learn the sport for free at ANY High School, Park, and Boys or Girls Club. Serena, Venus, and Maria Sharapova were all coached by their parents until they became Pro's. Venus kept her Father as her coach well into her career and after winning Wimbledon. Soccer, is another sport that Women are playing at a much higher rate now that you can make millions of dollars playing on a professional team. Every school, from Elementary through College has a soccer field where you can learn and play the game for free. You can also play at any time, and any day of the week. Unfortunately, this is simply not possible with skating.

I don't really think these comparisons hold up. Tennis is notorious for being a "rich man's" sport, and while it may be free to play in many areas, it is VERY expensive to train to be a tennis pro. Which is why the story of the Williams Sisters has really latched on to the American public. By no means were they the first black players on tour but the story of growing up poor in Compton and learning how to play on the free public courts in LA is so endearing BECAUSE it's unique - not because its common. If you look at the other top players - American or not - many of them come from wealthy or upper middle class families who could afford the private training, renting out courts, joining tennis clubs, etc. I do agree with your soccer example in that its cheaper to learn and do well when playing soccer. But by no means is there this mass exodus of little girls who wanted to do figure skating but did soccer instead.

Gymnastics is not that much cheaper and I would argue LESS accessible than figure skating. But USA Gymnastics is thriving because of its successes which has led to more enthusiasm and naturally, more funding. I do see how circular the logic is that USA gymnastics is good because they have funding and they have funding because they are good. But it's true - which is why figure skating was so lucrative for American women from Dorothy Hamill until around the time Sasha Cohen retired (when American women were the dominant force in the sport). Which is all to say that I dont believe that the slow collapse of the American ladies is about American parenting styles as USA gymnastics clearly shows that many American parents are willing to pay whatever and have their children endure whatever if it means Olympic glory.

 

[mrrice]

I don't really think these comparisons hold up. Tennis is notorious for being a "rich man's" sport, and while it may be free to play in many areas, it is VERY expensive to train to be a tennis pro. Which is why the story of the Williams Sisters has really latched on to the American public. By no means were they the first black players on tour but the story of growing up poor in Compton and learning how to play on the free public courts in LA is so endearing BECAUSE it's unique - not because its common. If you look at the other top players - American or not - many of them come from wealthy or upper middle class families who could afford the private training, renting out courts, joining tennis clubs, etc. I do agree with your soccer example in that its cheaper to learn and do well when playing soccer. But by no means is there this mass exodus of little girls who wanted to do figure skating but did soccer instead.

Gymnastics is not that much cheaper and I would argue LESS accessible than figure skating. But USA Gymnastics is thriving because of its successes which has led to more enthusiasm and naturally, more funding. I do see how circular the logic is that USA gymnastics is good because they have funding and they have funding because they are good. But it's true - which is why figure skating was so lucrative for American women from Dorothy Hamill until around the time Sasha Cohen retired (when American women were the dominant force in the sport). Which is all to say that I dont believe that the slow collapse of the American ladies is about American parenting styles as USA gymnastics clearly shows that many American parents are willing to pay whatever and have their children endure whatever if it means Olympic glory.

For me, it's all about the beginning. Sharapova's father took various low-paying jobs to fund her lessons until she was old enough to be admitted to the academy. Initially, she trained with Rick Macci. In 1995, however, she was signed by IMG, who agreed to pay the annual tuition fee of $35,000 for Sharapova to stay at the Academy, allowing her to finally enroll at the age of 9.

Maria became rich fairly early but, she didn't start out that way. The other factor with skating is that for most skaters, your career is very short. The top skaters make a lot of money but, several, in fact most, never win a National Championship which makes it very difficult to get sponsors. Hanyu and Nathan are very rich but they have multiple Titles including 2 OGM's for Hanyu on their resume'.

Another factor with Tennis is that you can make a living and not be #1. Genie Bouchard made 1,500,000 for her Runner Up finish at Wimbledon. Even the 8th place finisher makes over 100, 000 at every Grand Slam. That really ads up and you can become quite rich even if you never win a tournament.

 

[gliese]

But by no means is there this mass exodus of little girls who wanted to do figure skating but did soccer instead.

Anecdotally, whenever I tell teenage girls that I'm a figure skater, many of them say that they think it would have been fun to skate but their parents didn't want them to take lessons because they were kind of expensive. Sure none of them were super passionate about figure skating, but to be fair many of them probably didn't know what it was when they were 10. Parents choose what sports their kids try at a young age. And most champions start at a young age.

 

[ribbit]

Gymnastics is not that much cheaper and I would argue LESS accessible than figure skating. But USA Gymnastics is thriving because of its successes which has led to more enthusiasm and naturally, more funding. I do see how circular the logic is that USA gymnastics is good because they have funding and they have funding because they are good. But it's true - which is why figure skating was so lucrative for American women from Dorothy Hamill until around the time Sasha Cohen retired (when American women were the dominant force in the sport). Which is all to say that I dont believe that the slow collapse of the American ladies is about American parenting styles as USA gymnastics clearly shows that many American parents are willing to pay whatever and have their children endure whatever if it means Olympic glory.

The average cost of training an elite, Olympic-level gymnast is usually quoted at around $15,000/year. The average cost of training an elite, Olympic-level singles skater is usually quoted at $60,000-$100,000/year. Even at the lowest end, that's four times the cost of training an elite gymnast.

Other factors have probably also contributed to make gymnastics seem a more accessible and appealing option (before, that is, the horrific abuses perpetrated against young gymnasts began to come to light). Gyms are open year-round, while many towns have only a seasonal ice rink, making it a year-round option for parents looking for an activity for young children with energy to burn. And the robust college gymnastics scene for women, with scholarships available to many young athletes, creates an incentive for parents to invest in their daughters' gymnastic careers; they may not make the Olympics or attract personal sponsors, but they can get an education at a significant discount.*

*There are issues with athletic scholarships, but I'm not sure how widely known they are, or how much they factor into parental decision-making.

 

[skatefan17]

3Lz-3T isn't the only 3-3 they can do to improve their scores.
I wonder why they don't go for the easiest 3-3s. It's better than underrotated 3Lz/F-3T.
There are ladies who scored well with 3T-3T or 3S-3T in SP. Like Tursynbaeva, Daleman, Sotnikova. And in FS with 7 seven triples. I would recommend Karen to do 2017 Daleman's layouts.

This!!! Karen has underrotated the 3T on her 3Lz-3T for years. Why not try any other 3T combination and see what works best for her??? Or why not work on a 4Lz or a stand alone 3Lz with really tough footwork out of it??? Just anything to increase difficulty and GOE.

 

[nussnacker]

Agreed. The same thing happened to me in gymnastics and figure skating. Once I reached high school it was over, due to the expense. At least in high school, I went on to less expensive sports like track and field. I also believe that in state-sponsored sports, as in Russia, they generally choose a certain body type with few exceptions. It's the same in all of the artistic sports, as well as ballet schools. I remember reading a gymnastics book years ago where it stated that choosing who gets to train is highly specialized. Doctors not only look over a child's medical history, body type, looking out for small hips, flexibility, and so on, but they even looked at the medical history, body types, etc. of parents and grandparents,(if possible), to gauge how a child might physically develop over time.

Yes, they would even check what sports or activities the kid did previously, because apparently some can result in kids being shorter than what is desired in ballet.

 

[Amei]

This!!! Karen has underrotated the 3T on her 3Lz-3T for years. Why not try any other 3T combination and see what works best for her??? Or why not work on a 4Lz or a stand alone 3Lz with really tough footwork out of it??? Just anything to increase difficulty and GOE.

that's not how the US ladies roll once they get to seniors

 

[chuckm]

Not so. At Warsaw Cup, Lindsay Thorngren did 3z+3lo and 3f+3t in her FS, after attempting a 3a at the beginning of her program, and earned the World TES minimums for both SP and FS. Lindsay will be competing at US Senior Nationals in January---no more JGP for her.

And Brady has done a 3z+3t in her SP and two 3z+3t in her FS at every competition for the last 3 1/2 years.

 

[Charlotte 71]

I just laughed out loud. I'm just so frustrated with the American women right now

Well, guess who landed 3lz-3t at her most recent challenger event? Gracie. Interesting...

 

[Amei]

Well, guess who landed 3lz-3t at her most recent challenger event? Gracie. Interesting...

Not a Challenger, it was a domestic event, Gracie hasn't been a stable competitor in years, good for her for that event but she's got to be more consistent than 1 event.

And my response was to a bolded section about Karen doing something to increase her difficulty or GOE. You look at the skaters besides Alysa and Lindsay (though she has been largely competing as a junior) they are all doing pretty much the same layouts from several years ago. I think it was Skate Canada that I looked at, Karen's FS layout was almost identical to her layout at the last Olympics.

 

[vorravorra]

The other thing about "American Parents" these days is that there are sports that are MUCH less expensive to learn. Take Tennis, the highest paid female athlete in the world for many years was Serena Willams. Top tennis players earn Millions of dollars and they can learn the sport for free at ANY High School, Park, and Boys or Girls Club. Serena, Venus, and Maria Sharapova were all coached by their parents until they became Pro's. Venus kept her Father as her coach well into her career and after winning Wimbledon. Soccer, is another sport that Women are playing at a much higher rate now that you can make millions of dollars playing on a professional team. Every school, from Elementary through College has a soccer field where you can learn and play the game for free. You can also play at any time, and any day of the week. Unfortunately, this is simply not possible with skating.

There are far cheaper sports than figure skating, and sports that bring in more money, in Russia as well, and yet that doesn't stop parents from investing tons of it in their kids' skating careers. Another popular sport for girls, rhythmic gymnastics, is also neither cheap nor lucrative. Something else drives the choice.

 

[dancelion21]

I don't really think these comparisons hold up. Tennis is notorious for being a "rich man's" sport, and while it may be free to play in many areas, it is VERY expensive to train to be a tennis pro. Which is why the story of the Williams Sisters has really latched on to the American public. By no means were they the first black players on tour but the story of growing up poor in Compton and learning how to play on the free public courts in LA is so endearing BECAUSE it's unique - not because its common. If you look at the other top players - American or not - many of them come from wealthy or upper middle class families who could afford the private training, renting out courts, joining tennis clubs, etc. I do agree with your soccer example in that its cheaper to learn and do well when playing soccer. But by no means is there this mass exodus of little girls who wanted to do figure skating but did soccer instead.

Gymnastics is not that much cheaper and I would argue LESS accessible than figure skating. But USA Gymnastics is thriving because of its successes which has led to more enthusiasm and naturally, more funding. I do see how circular the logic is that USA gymnastics is good because they have funding and they have funding because they are good. But it's true - which is why figure skating was so lucrative for American women from Dorothy Hamill until around the time Sasha Cohen retired (when American women were the dominant force in the sport). Which is all to say that I dont believe that the slow collapse of the American ladies is about American parenting styles as USA gymnastics clearly shows that many American parents are willing to pay whatever and have their children endure whatever if it means Olympic glory.

I think the main thing that would increase popularity for figure skating in the US would be if it were somehow integrated as a college sport. If it were a college sport, there would be significantly more financial incentive for teenagers to stick it out, since there is the possibility of a college scholarship at the end.

 

[Parksideprince]

3Lz-3T isn't the only 3-3 they can do to improve their scores.
I wonder why they don't go for the easiest 3-3s. It's better than underrotated 3Lz/F-3T.
There are ladies who scored well with 3T-3T or 3S-3T in SP. Like Tursynbaeva, Daleman, Sotnikova. And in FS with 7 seven triples. I would recommend Karen to do 2017 Daleman's layouts.

I loved Daleman ... I thought she was the Kim Kardashian of skating